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General class role concerns, or DK arena whine


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#41 VonLego

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 10:05 PM

Very well written. Here is hoping the take this to heart.
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#42 mirag

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 11:21 PM

Agree with OP.

Comparing my DK to my rogue.

I peel better on my rogue.
I CC better on my rogue.
I got better debuffs on my rogue.
I do half the dmg on my rogue.
I die in first stun i cant trinket and i autodie when im out of cds on my rogue and sometimes earlier.
I only die if me or my healer do huge screwups on my DK.

Its easier to stay on my target on my rogue in the start of the game thought i doent need to stay on target to do dmg on my dk.
When im out of cds im obviousy worse vs kiting on my rogue but it really doesent matter since thats when i autodie anyway.
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#43 Rudeface

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 11:34 PM

Agree with OP.

Comparing my DK to my rogue.

I peel better on my rogue.
I CC better on my rogue.
I got better debuffs on my rogue.
I do half the dmg on my rogue.
I die in first stun i cant trinket and i autodie when im out of cds on my rogue and sometimes earlier.
I only die if me or my healer do huge screwups on my DK.

Its easier to stay on my target on my rogue in the start of the game thought i doent need to stay on target to do dmg on my dk.
When im out of cds im obviousy worse vs kiting on my rogue but it really doesent matter since thats when i autodie anyway.


Haha, im still not sure if this was 100% sarcasm. Guessing it was, and i approve^^
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#44 Thaya

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 02:05 AM

Note that I didn't say we couldn't peel at all. But you're welcome to think that we're the best peeling class ever in a world where 80% teams have a paladin, sure. And that disarms, defensively used CC, stunlocking is way inferior to applying ranged snares. Yeah.

I also don't see why some people disagreed with our damage being harder to stop than any other melees. A rogue, warrior, ret paladin is doing zero damage if they're not in melee range with their target; on the other hand a DKs DoTs are still ticking, and he can still IT and Coil you. Not saying that kiting does nothing against us, I'm just saying we can still keep some level of damage pressure (not optimal, obviously) even when people attempt to kite. Also, being immune to polymorphs and non-undead specific fears for 15 sec, being immune to stuns for 12 sec, and if you can predict novas/barrier explosions or just watch cast bars on focus frame to absorb CC with AMS, that all is a considerable amount of tools to stay uncontrolled and is more than a lot of classes have.


However this wasn't even really the main point. Is it only me who finds that this class' success comes almost entirely thanks to the damage we're pushing out?
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#45 Desmond

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 02:40 AM

However this wasn't even really the main point. Is it only me who finds that this class' success comes almost entirely thanks to the damage we're pushing out?


I'm fairly concerned about this same thing. A ranged snare, long CD stun, and even longer CD silence is a nice toolset, but doubt it'd be enough to even remain competitive in a world with significantly reduced damage.
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#46 Triumvirate

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 02:45 AM

The OP is an idiot who doesn't understand the complexities of a DK.


Along with 2/3 of the posters in this thread. It just makes me feel sick most of these people have respectable ratings.
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#47 Thaya

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 02:51 AM

Tell me more about those complexities.
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#48 Rudeface

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 03:00 AM

I'm fairly concerned about this same thing. A ranged snare, long CD stun, and even longer CD silence is a nice toolset, but doubt it'd be enough to even remain competitive in a world with significantly reduced damage.


Significantly reduced damage, please elaborate. (in 3.1?)
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#49 Desmond

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 03:06 AM

Significantly reduced damage, please elaborate. (in 3.1?)


Nothing that I've seen released for 3.1 qualifies yet. But, people also like to bring up arena matches in which the DK doubles the damage of a warlock or whatnot. Reducing DK damage by 50% to bring the damage totals to parity would qualify. 25% probably would too.

Remember, we also haven't seen the final build of 3.1, and the major nerfs tend to come right at the end of a build (just ask the ret paladins about the 3.0.2 patch). Maybe they'll get it right with us, maybe they'll gut us and we'll be fury warriors without titan's grip and furious attacks. Until then, all we can do is theorize (and apparently namecall).
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#50 summlan

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 03:14 AM

every melee class has a pummel so thats irrelevant


Fail.

You dont need any compensation for lower damage.
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#51 Nifti

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 03:15 AM

Dk MELEE damage is definetly not beeing reduced in 3.1, the whole %-damage increase per disease is buffing pretty much every diesease-dependant strike on PTR given you are hitting a fully diseased target. My Unholy-SS, Blood-HS or Frost-Oblit crits are higher than ever before. I just dont understand why blizzard is taking away utility (hotremoval, bb-Glyph) and giving us raw melee damage, absolutely nobody is asking for that.

However this wasn't even really the main point. Is it only me who finds that this class' success comes almost entirely thanks to the damage we're pushing out?


Feel free to call me a scrub who doesnt understand the complexities of a Dk (lol.), but i do absolutely agree with this.
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#52 summlan

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 03:28 AM

Chillblains: Now a 15/30/50% movement speed debuff up from 30%. Can no longer be dispelled.

There you go, a ranged hamstring. Only MS-debuff left and youre done.
Amazing....
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#53 Outkastdjinn

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 04:05 AM

Chillblains: Now a 15/30/50% movement speed debuff up from 30%. Can no longer be dispelled.

There you go, a ranged hamstring. Only MS-debuff left and youre done.
Amazing....


YESS. So we get pigeonholed yet again, into a single tree for PvP.
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#54 GLopez

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 04:24 AM

^You're kidding, right? Unholy and Blood got amazing changes. The new Desecration with Scourge Strike is the best melee snare in the game. It's an AOE 50% snare that lays a mini-Frost Trap. On top of that, Unholy has a lot more sustained damage than Frost next patch.

DKs currently have a lot more CC (Strangulate, Chains of Ice, Blood Boil) and they have the best peeling power in the game (Death Grip, Chains of Ice, a pet stun, AMZ, Blood Boil). Next patch it only looks better with the new snares.
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#55 fuuga

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 04:36 AM

YESS. So we get pigeonholed yet again, into a single tree for PvP.


Well, you get desecration or hamstring in the other trees. Blood is hella good against shaman cause of heart strike fucking tidal waves up.
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totems alone are more buttons than rogues use you fucking downie

inb4 delete


#56 GLopez

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 04:37 AM

The haste thing got taken out of Blood in 3.0.9. :P
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#57 Thaya

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 04:45 AM

DKs currently have a lot more CC (Strangulate, Chains of Ice, Blood Boil) and they have the best peeling power in the game (Death Grip, Chains of Ice, a pet stun, AMZ, Blood Boil). Next patch it only looks better with the new snares.

None of these are CC.

Speccing for AMZ is a waste.
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#58 GLopez

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 04:48 AM

If you don't think Strangulate and snares are CC, I have no idea what you consider CC. They can effectively lock down a few classes, which controls them. Crowd control?

And if you think AMZ is a waste for every comp out there, especially if you think that about 3s and 5s, you're pretty narrow-minded.
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#59 fuuga

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 06:38 AM

The haste thing got taken out of Blood in 3.0.9. :P


Bah, my bad. Always been more intent on frost anyway. =P

Also, I can't believe you think CoI and Strangle aren't CC. lol
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totems alone are more buttons than rogues use you fucking downie

inb4 delete


#60 Thaya

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 06:57 AM

I can't believe you throw CoI and Strangulate into the same category as Polymorph, Blind, Fear, etc.
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