Jump to content

Photo

General class role concerns, or DK arena whine


  • Please log in to reply
95 replies to this topic

#21 Ulali

Ulali
  • Ulaliwuhn
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • US-Bonechewer
  • Reckoning
  • Posts: 655
  • Talents: Balance

Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:22 PM

DKs have pummel/ghoul stun or HC/CoI/aoe snares/blanket silence/grip. They have quite a bit of utility/peels to go with their damage.

Main problem with CoI is just that it is too weak against dispelling teams, and way too strong against non-dispel teams. I'm kind of hoping they tone chains down a bit now that they are giving all 3 specs undispellable 50% snares.


we have to spec for our cc, every other class has a baseline cc.
every melee class has a pummel so thats irrelevant
  • 0

#22 Haks

Haks
  • Members
  • Taurenclass_name
  • US-Scarlet Crusade
  • Reckoning
  • Posts: 204
  • Talents: Feral Combat

Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:23 PM

All druids are hermaphrodites that troll bus station bathrooms.

What, you want me to back up my claim with anything resembling useful information? Why? Are you so stupid that I have to tell you why the thing I just made up and presented as fact is true?


Someone take 5 points from this guy so I don't have to read his posts in the junkie section, please.

Thank you.
  • 0

#23 Kellhus

Kellhus
  • Members
  • Orcclass_name
  • US-Emerald Dream
  • Shadowburn
  • Posts: 134
  • Talents:

Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:24 PM

Someone take 5 points from this guy so I don't have to read his posts in the junkie section, please.

Thank you.


Pointless response to a pointless response.
  • 0

#24 Mackeveli

Mackeveli
  • Junkies
  • Blood Elfclass_name
  • US-Blackrock
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 725
  • Talents: Affliction

Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:24 PM

dks are the best peeling class, and most of our peeling power comes from the bb glyph as we can easily and continually put an undispellable snare on everything chasing our healer. once 3.1 is here our peels will revolve mainly around single target snares (i guess besides desecration on a pillar or something) which will be a huge hit on our peeling power

also, other classes will feel much better about the state of dks once the patch hits. any noob playin a dk right now is basically unkiteable.. once dks are forced to be more of a melee class good players will kite dk bads indefinitely
  • 0

#25 Guest_Alphatier_*

Guest_Alphatier_*

Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:27 PM

All druids are hermaphrodites that troll bus station bathrooms.

What, you want me to back up my claim with anything resembling useful information? Why? Are you so stupid that I have to tell you why the thing I just made up and presented as fact is true?


I love reading non-glads typing like that haha :)

btw I play a DK, so I know what the class can do, and I know that he's right, and it's just the DKs bias that makes them think these forums are "degenerating" .. lol, so when someone tells you you are too strong the forums are degenerating, way to go
  • 0

#26 Kellhus

Kellhus
  • Members
  • Orcclass_name
  • US-Emerald Dream
  • Shadowburn
  • Posts: 134
  • Talents:

Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:30 PM

I love reading non-glads typing like that haha :)

btw I play a DK, so I know what the class can do, and I know that he's right, and it's just the DKs bias that makes them think these forums are "degenerating" .. lol, so when someone tells you you are too strong the forums are degenerating, way to go


This has zero to do with my statement, nor to do with ratings. Also, "glads" didn't invent sarcasm or wit in forum posts

I'm aware of what the class can do, I'm also aware when someone is making a stupid out of their ass statement that serves only to derail a discussion. Previous season ratings don't get you a pass for being retarded.
  • 0

#27 rkz

rkz
  • Members
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Eredar
  • Vindication
  • Posts: 136
  • Talents: Discipline

Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:48 PM

A DK only brings two things to an Arena. His damage and survivability. A DK brings nothing or very little of other things which are generally considered useful in Arena. Those things being CC (being able to control players for long periods, ghoul stun doesn't count), MS (healing debuff), peeling


lol
  • 0

#28 Chromex

Chromex
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Kel'Thuzad
  • Nightfall
  • Posts: 143
  • Talents: Marksmanship
  • RBG: 2340

Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:50 PM

First of all, stop arguing I don't understand why people like aruiging over pointless things on forums.

What I don't think alot of people realize is that this whole discussion comes back to the plain and 'sad' fact that blizzard """is""" quote trying to simplify this game. Why? Because the easier the game, the higher ratings people get, which in turn gives people more gear. Which IN TURN makes people Happier. WHICH then translates into more sales. = More dough, to add on to their 15 Million per month of sales. ANyways

I played a warrior s3 and s4, and rerolled a DK because I HATED the skill cap on the class. And now it seems that inevitable the DK class is becoming less and less skilled every patch. I was sooo excited by abilities like anti- magic shell. Ofcourse blizzard nerfed it so hard that no one would ever dream of using it. Mark of blood, nerfed obviously because of people over-extending things ( just like everything in this game lol), most unholy builds don't even take it anymore.

These are just 2 abilties that were atleast somewhat of a skill to be able to use at the right time. Now?? No point in using them. The Point Im trying to make is, obviously DK damage was a bit too high with how many ultility and counter moves they have. Now, they are removing some of that which IN TURN will decrease the skill cap. I recently just respecced shadowfrost (sadly on live) BECAUSE (now listen), the normal unholy build did not have enough damage to compete. Would I rather play a build that has alot of (coordination) in it? YOU BET. But its not possible BECAUSE blizzard doesn't allow Us the chance to use them at a competitive level.

So sadly, I play shadowfrost. WhY? Because at the competitive level I play at, its the only way that gives me a fair level of play (atleast against other TOP players. EG - Top players meaning top 20 players bg9.) And so really it all comes down to what blizzard wants to make it.

Whats the point? The DK class is becoming easier. Losing utility , and becoming more like a warrior.

I was bored, and decided to post. just my random thoughts :D
edit - pushing to 2600 today woot woot :D
  • 0

#29 thevidon

thevidon
  • Members
  • Trollclass_name
  • US-Mal'Ganis
  • Stormstrike
  • Posts: 35
  • Talents:

Posted 16 March 2009 - 07:03 PM

To the OP - what a great post. I have been saying the same things for quite a while. I would gladly trade in damage for MS. DK's are going in a dangerous direction right now. As soon as we don't have enough burst to drop a healer within our interrupt/CD spans we are finished in 2's. Without MS we cannot afford to drag out games most of the time (unless you play with a LOLOVERPOWERED paladin) due to mana limitations.

Lowering DK damage and adding MS would be a great equalizer for the class. Healers wouldn't bitch about being bursted down, and we could get back to playing games that actually required some thought beyond chaining stun into strangle for a gib.
  • 0

#30 Desmond

Desmond
  • Junkies
  • Goblinclass_name
  • US-Destromath
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 275
  • Talents: Affliction

Posted 16 March 2009 - 07:07 PM

I love reading non-glads typing like that haha :)

btw I play a DK, so I know what the class can do, and I know that he's right, and it's just the DKs bias that makes them think these forums are "degenerating" .. lol, so when someone tells you you are too strong the forums are degenerating, way to go


Did I say anything about DKs not being too strong? Even the OP said DKs are too strong. What he suggested, and something that I personally have been concerned about for a while is, once damage balances out and the outliers (like DKs) get toned down, what will we bring to the table to justify an arena position?

It's all well and good to hide behind your inactive druid toon and your blue forum name and call someone else out on not being a gladiator, but it reeks of hypocrisy and doesn't provide anything relevant to the discussion. When the forums have devolved into ad-hominem fallacies and people ranting about things that are being removed next patch in response to potentially valid discussions and inquiries, that's where it becomes little better than WoW forums 2.0.

Really, 75% of the posts in this thread, mine included, should be deleted. They're not constructive to the initial question of "What would DKs bring if our damage is on par with other classes".
  • 0

#31 Cares

Cares
  • Members
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Eonar
  • Misery
  • Posts: 133
  • Talents:

Posted 16 March 2009 - 07:08 PM

I agree with most of the points aswell. If DK's damage would get toned down and, as you said, recieve some sort of useful tool in arena, it would reduce the amount of "burst setup playing" and more to the outlast/switching playmode. That would also make arenas so much funnier than they are at the moment. Mindless bursts isn't that fun.
  • 0

#32 guinogv

guinogv
  • Members
  • Gnomeclass_name
  • US-Tortheldrin
  • Emberstorm
  • Posts: 60
  • Talents: Frost

Posted 16 March 2009 - 07:22 PM

being outnuke by a DK playing as mage has been the worst expereince for me in this game so far... something about DKs have to go.. for example while doing 2s if I run into DK/paly my partner and I dont even communicate anymore we just play like you know no big deal if we lose.. it has been that way since season begun nothing was done...
  • 0
Originally Posted by Levidian
I fought a double healer ret team as double healer SV on the TR and the ret did 2x my damage literally double. That was with me NOT being attacked so I was free to steady shot and that was WITH him being CCd/kited/scatter shot.

#33 Haks

Haks
  • Members
  • Taurenclass_name
  • US-Scarlet Crusade
  • Reckoning
  • Posts: 204
  • Talents: Feral Combat

Posted 16 March 2009 - 08:27 PM

If DK's damage would get toned down and, as you said, recieve some sort of useful tool in arena


Even funnier the 9th time it's said in this thread.
  • 0

#34 Desmond

Desmond
  • Junkies
  • Goblinclass_name
  • US-Destromath
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 275
  • Talents: Affliction

Posted 16 March 2009 - 09:10 PM

Even funnier the 9th time it's said in this thread.


The repetition of a point doesn't make it any less valid. Let's take a second to compare what a DK brings to the table compared to a warrior in 3.1 as it stands right now:

Snare:

Warrior:
50% Undispellable melee snare
50% Undispellable AoE Ranged Snare w/ 11 Fury

DK (Blood or Unholy):
50% Undispellable melee snare
Dispellable snare from range

DK (Frost):
50% Undispellable ranged snare
Dispellable snare from range


Stun:

Warrior:
3s Stun on a 30s CD(reducable to 15s CD through talents/PVP set)

DK (with 16 points in Unholy):
3s Stun on a 30s CD on a pet


Spell Interruption:

Warrior:
Physical Pummel on a 10s CD in zerker, 12s CD in defensive stance.

DK:
Magical Pummel (goes through BoP but gets eaten by grounding totem/resisted) on a 10s CD.
Single Target 5s Silence on a 2min CD.


"Catch Up" Method:

Warrior:
Charge when out of combat.
Intercept on 30s CD (15 through talents and PVP set)
Intervene to catch up to teammate.
Piercing Howl

DK:
Death Grip on 35s CD (25 through talents)
Ranged Snares mentioned earlier


Mortal Strike:

Warrior:
MS Debuff on MS or on White Attacks depending on Fury/Arms

DK:
Nada


Survivability:

Warrior:
Plate Armor
Defensive Stance + Shield (10% reduced damage from all)
Spell Reflect (5s Duration, 10s CD, 1 spell)
Shield Wall (60% reduction, 5min CD - 3min w/ glyph)
Last Stand (11 in Prot, 3 min CD - 2 w/ glyph, 30% max HP)
Enraged Regeneration (30% HP, 3min CD, requires an enrage effect including bloodrage or berserker rage)

DK:
Plate Armor
Frost Presence (+80% armor + 5% reduced magic damage)
Anti-Magic Shell (5s Duration, 45s CD, All Spells)
Icebound Fortitude (20% reduction + stun immune, 1min CD)
Vampiric Blood OR Unbreakable Armor OR Bone Shield
Death Pact (40% HP, 2min CD, requires a pet and kills the pet)
Rune Tap (10-20% HP, 60-30s CD, requires 11-18 pts in Blood)


CC Immunity:

Warrior:
Spell Reflect (weak but sometimes, ask druids)
Bladestorm (51pt Arms, 1.5min CD)

DK:
Lichborne (Breaks Fear and Sleep, possibly also sheep and sap in 3.1 - 11pt Frost, 3min CD)
Antimagic Shell
(NOTE, HYSTERIA IS NO LONGER CC IMMUNITY IN 3.1)


Peels:

Warrior:
Intercept Stun
Charge Stun
Intimidating Shout
Piercing Howl/Hamstring
Disarm (melee/hunters)
Imp Hamstring (if arms)

DK:
Ghoul Stun
Death Grip
Chains of Ice/50% snare (Heart Strike/ChillBlains/Desecration)
Strangulate (casters)
Hungering Cold (if frost)




TLDR: Sans mortal strike, DKs are fairly comparable in what they bring to the table as warriors. If DK damage is brought down, what is the incentive to bring them over a warrior?
  • 0

#35 Grombringal

Grombringal
  • Junkies
  • Goblinclass_name
  • EU-Stormscale
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 2,825
  • Talents: Shadow

Posted 16 March 2009 - 09:17 PM

LOL THIS GUY IS ACTUALLY COMPAIRING A WARRIOR WITH A DK HAHA CAN'T STOP LAUGHING PLEASE SHOOT HIM IN THE HEAD HAHAHAHA PLEASE
  • 0

#36 Baneman

Baneman
  • Junkies
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • US-Korgath
  • Vengeance
  • Posts: 272
  • Talents: Balance

Posted 16 March 2009 - 09:24 PM

Wow at that warrior vs. DK comparison.
  • 0

#37 Desmond

Desmond
  • Junkies
  • Goblinclass_name
  • US-Destromath
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 275
  • Talents: Affliction

Posted 16 March 2009 - 09:28 PM

It's a comparison of the toolsets the classes have, not the damage output, performance, representation or any such other aspects of the classes themselves. If there is an error, if I missed something, or if you feel that I've under/overvalued something, by all means point it out.
  • 0

#38 Syker

Syker
  • Members
  • Blood Elfclass_name
  • US-Spinebreaker
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 13
  • Talents: Fire

Posted 16 March 2009 - 09:28 PM

That is awesome
  • 0

#39 Maplestory

Maplestory
  • Members
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Mannoroth
  • Ruin
  • Posts: 512
  • Talents: Frost

Posted 16 March 2009 - 09:42 PM

The only thing I have to say is that if they reduce our damage just make it so we have some new sort of snare that is actually reliable like hamstring/crippling poison. MS would be nice but I wouldn't mind not having it. The way I see it now we're a warlock in plate and are able to do tons of damage. Our ability to set up damage on multiple targets which in turn causes our enemies to watch teammate's health. Thinking back on my post, I wouldn't care for MS but a CC that is reliable would be nice. Like a fear/hex/sheep type of thing with a CD(30 seconds - 1 minute? Maybe longer).
  • 0

#40 Grombringal

Grombringal
  • Junkies
  • Goblinclass_name
  • EU-Stormscale
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 2,825
  • Talents: Shadow

Posted 16 March 2009 - 09:46 PM

It's a comparison of the toolsets the classes have, not the damage output, performance, representation or any such other aspects of the classes themselves. If there is an error, if I missed something, or if you feel that I've under/overvalued something, by all means point it out.


You missed that DKs are Warriors 2.0
  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

<