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General class role concerns, or DK arena whine


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#1 Thaya

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 11:51 AM

I've initially written/posted this on official EU DK forums, but it feels kind of out-of-touch there. I wanted my walloftext to be read by more PvP-minded people. So, huge copypasta inc; I won't quote-tag it to keep it easier to read, but everything written below is ctrl+v. Oh, my DK's name is Thaya, cba changing character here as I'm not a regular poster or anything anyway.



Hi, I'd like to start with a little background, as ratings is the first thing people seem to judge when talking about this subject.

I've attained Gladiator in Seasons 2 and 3, and been within the range of it in S1 and S4 - quit and rerolled in S1, and missed it out in S4 due to team hops and lack of care (already had the mount on the char I played then). S1 to mid-S3 I've played a Priest, both specs - used Shadow for 2v2, Discipline (and Blessed Resilience way back in S1) for 3v3 and 5v5. In around S3 I rerolled to a Shaman, played Enhancement till WotLK. As such I have experienced Arena from every role point - healer, ranged DPS, melee DPS. I hated the Enh Shaman changes in 3.0+ and decided to reroll to DK in WotLK, and here I am.

I was enjoying PvP ever since I started playing the game in '05, and I loved Arena ever since it was added in TBC. I'm at over 120k HKs on all my characters combined, and been playing on high ratings with all my mains.

Just one more thing before I move on. I know some people are bound check armory before reading on and yell "LOL RUIN BG SCRUB", however I've played on Misery and Cyclone up to high ratings as well. You are also free to check my statistics->highest 2v2 rating on Tournament Realm (same name; it's around ~2400 if you trust me), sadly I don't have a serious 3v3 running so I can't brag about that one. Not to say I'm really active, as you see I haven't even really bothered to play up since phase 2 started, but you'll soon know why.

Lastly, I had the 0/21/50 shadowfrost spec in mind when writing most of this.



A DK only brings two things to an Arena. His damage and survivability. A DK brings nothing or very little of other things which are generally considered useful in Arena. Those things being CC (being able to control players for long periods, ghoul stun doesn't count), MS (healing debuff), peeling (playing defensively, helping your team mate(s) survive, slowing down enemy damage), lockdowns (controlling someone while damage him at the same time, think stunlocks or eating 15k DoT damage while being feared). I was thinking of adding burst to this list, but although we can't control ours, it's still there so let's consider that DKs can burst.

Now, the above looks like whining, and some of you probably thought "rofl dk tears". Just before you fix that impression, I will also say this - DK is certainly overpowered.

And now I'm finally at the whole point of this "article": why is DK overpowered even if he lacks so many things? It's the damage, raw numbers. We easily bring more damage than any other class does.

Contrary to popular belief, we are also one of the classes which is hardest to prevent from doing damage. Even if we are being kited, we can still spam Icy Touch and Blood Boil, our DoTs are still ticking, and we have temporary immunities which allow us to extend our "uptime" if used properly. It's way harder to kite a DK than most other melee, second only to Shadowdance Rogue. We are harder to prevent from doing damage than some ranged classes (prevent a frostmage from casting FBs and he's not gonna do much).

We can also get huge RNG spikes thanks to Killing Machine procs or Obliterate crit streaks (hi +% crit modifiers stacking) when Blood. To make it worse, there are bugs such as Corpse Exploding your pet, and yes this IS a bug or just something overlooked: I doubt that 6,4k instant damage is in any way intended; what happened there is probably the Corpse Explosion spell was accidentally given to the ghoul pet unit, and casting Corpse Explosion on him 'forces' him to use it - notice how it's actually a different spell from what "real" corpses cast when you use CE.

And of course, we get the ability to keep up pressure on multiple targets too, for the minimal cost of 1 GCD if people get close to each other for any reason. Pestilence spam, yeah.

I'm sure some people will want to argue about peeling. I'm also sure the first thing they will say is "CHAINS SPAM GOD DAM". Now I'm not going to deny that we can peel a bit - can CoI some, can Death Grip someone off the target, etc. But, if you look just a little bit deeper, you will notice this. Since the dispel mechanic changes, CoI is most likely the first debuff to go away every time, assuming no stronger CC effects are applied to it (in which case you ask yourself, why even CoI an already CCed target). We also trade CoI with our main nuke regardless of spec - IT requires a frost rune, Oblit requires a frost rune. If a DK is doing the deadly "CoI spam" you're talking about, it means he ain't really doing any damage. At this point the enemy paladin (and there's one of them present in 80% matches) doesn't really need to heal, and his hands are free to simply exchange GCDs with us on the CoI dispelling. Of course we can also DG someone away, but in most cases this will give just a few seconds of breathing time as every other range closing ability is on a shorter CD than DG is, it's only a good peel vs mutilate rogues. So again, I'm not saying we can't peel at all - we can - I'm saying it's less powerful than things like ranged spammable CC, disarms, roots, and other tools which can be used for peeling.

To expand the last point I made, about locking down. When going toe to toe vs the enemy DPS, we are most likely eating all the damage from that enemy DPS too. In a lot of cases it simply comes down to who's gonna outdamage who, who's going to apply more pressure and eventually win the game. A tunnelvision zerg. And the DK wins in it because he simply applies more pressure than any other class, while taking less damage than most classes. That's where it's overpowered.

Of course, we have a pet stun and a silence, however 4 sec stun every 30 sec isn't all that huge and silence is on a 2min CD; they sure can (and do) make a difference, I just don't think it's that huge in the long run. If you insist otherwise, try to think that way - if a 4sec stun on a 30sec CD and a 5sec silence on 2min CD wins you games because you are capable of doing enough damage to land a kill during that time, isn't that too much damage?

Finally I've formulated all of the facts I want to base this on, mostly obvious things which were lying on the surface anyway, but I needed a basis for the next few statements. Now that everything is on the table, it's time to say the reason for this thread and what kind of discussion I want to create:

Is this good?

Is it good that a class only exists and works exclusively thanks to damage and mitigation?



My opinion is no. A huge no. Both for DK players (I am one, the DK is my only 80) and other players. A few months ago there was the discussion about Arena being or not being a chess game, and most people said they wanted to see chess again. Well, guess what, one of the things that breaks it as a chess game is this class.

The only decision making a DK has to do in Arena as of now is where to channel his damage to. Tunnel vision is focusing on one thing, ignoring the rest. It's not just about "switching targets or not" like I seen some people claim. Can a DK really do much except damage? Not really no. Deciding where to drop the Strangulate once every 2 minutes ain't much, honestly. Deciding when to pop your DPS CDs isn't much thinking either. Deciding when to IBF or AMS (i.e. predicting the stuns/casts) also comes together with experience and becomes automatic once you get used to it, plus enemy cooldown tracking addons help tons with this, nor it's really hard to AMS when you see some mage casting a polymorph in your focus frame. Is tunnel vision fun? no. Hell, even Warrior/Druid of TBC had more finesse to it than this.

Currently this class is exactly what whiners claim it to be. "Retarded faceroll" as it's often put. Yep, you just gotta get used to the rune system, play with it for a few months, and the point where there's very little difference you can make as a player comes that soon. We actually suffer from target swaps to an extent - long DG CD which we have to sometimes save for a defensive use, and reliance on diseases. It comes down to facerolling in the end, sadly, as good as this class looks on paper with it's rich choice of options.

The current way of things also limits our partner options. When have you seen the last DK/Priest? It's a setup which will barely ever work because a priest needs protection, we can't provide it enough.

A really good analogy just popped in my mind: Hemo/AR/Prep Rogue. Those of you who played during S2/S3 should remember this incident. Don't you see how similar this is? AR/Prep was all about DPS zerg tunnelvision too with some tools available to it, a bit of stunlocking and throwing a blind. Thing is, it was considered ridiculous and nerfed within two weeks, with another option given to rogues - buffed shadowstep and cheat death, i.e. the damage was replaced with mobility and survivability pretty much.

I would love to see the same thing happen here. Nerf our PvP damage, but give us something else that's useful in Arena. It could be anything.

And another thing that worries me a bit. DK is whined at a lot, and people just yell to nerf us. Yeah, but what will happen if they just nerf our damage and don't compensate it with anything? I'll dare to say we are going to be, omfg, underpowered. A pretty amazing cycle, isn't it?

P.S.
I'll repeat myself, but anyway. This isn't a discussion of "DK is op lol". I'm talking about the design of the class in general, and the direction of the upcoming changes, as well as previous changes (removing our utility, like the anti-magic zone).
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#2 Vague

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 12:07 PM

I agree with many points you've said and that's what I've beeing trying to appease the trolls in the various threads with.

DK is an OP class right now, but nerfing it might not make it balanced as most people tend to think, it may actually break the class in the other direction making it gimp. I think the best approach is to nerf DK damage and rework some other aspects of the class (not necessarly buffing) that will make the class more strategic and less zergy.
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#3 lolgrip

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 12:35 PM

DKs are disgusting atm.
WTB proper cc and snare
WTS half of my damage.
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#4 Nifti

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 12:47 PM

I agree with most of your points. Its hard to balance a class relying only on high dps. Taking away some damage and giving better peel/cc abilitys would probably be a good start. Thats why i dont understand the changes made to the DK in 3.1, it seems we are doing even more damage than before (at least not mostly ranged anymore)and have worse cc/utility.

Also i think the Dk is controlable atm, what makes him op is the synergy with the pally dispelling every stun/snare while beeing pretty hard to kill even without the Dk peeling much. Pretty much 95% of all highrated DK teams also have a pally. The other two strong 2on2 dps classes (hunters,warlocks) generally do a lot better with a shaman or priest healer because their playstyle isnt only centered around doing damage.
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#5 Foureleven

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 01:36 PM

I can agree with most of the points.

The removal of BB Glyph is another step into less utility - thats what we need most.

Currently my tactics to success what works against common comp:
- Setup a burst with the pally mate
- Play overly defensive/peel until the next brust
- Repeat

Not very much to diversity here, but thats the only thing we can.
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#6 Konsume

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 02:10 PM

I played a Warlock, a warrior, a druid, a mage and a DK all above 2200 rating on "Korgath" (before I switched to Lethon).

I've never attained gladiator for the sole reason that I'm team hopping to help my friends get their shoulders... (read I'm currently helping a friend friend's to get more points in 2's) and when time comes for me to get gladiator, I either leave the game to play another one or I just don't find any partners cause every good parners I could get are actualy getting glad with the teams I helped them with (yah I know...)

So I have alot of experience with alot of classes and basicaly the only thing I really don't agree with you is this:

Contrary to popular belief, we are also one of the classes which is hardest to prevent from doing damage. Even if we are being kited, we can still spam Icy Touch and Blood Boil, our DoTs are still ticking, and we have temporary immunities which allow us to extend our "uptime" if used properly. It's way harder to kite a DK than most other melee, second only to Shadowdance Rogue. We are harder to prevent from doing damage than some ranged classes (prevent a frostmage from casting FBs and he's not gonna do much).


This is not true. If you don't have someone spending 70% of his time dispelling you, you will be rooted and snared to death. It's not true that you can get away with all the CC's going on only with AMS/Lichborn. (AMS is a really really short immunity)

It's also why Paladin fit our needs cause of "hands of freedom" but than again with all the classes that can offensivly dispell... (thinking of shaman, priest and mage that can steel) you won't run pretty far.

True, we can still spam IT, DC and BB while we're being trapped but you'll get what? 1-2 ITs off and 1-2 DC off? BB... well BB isn't even a damage ability (if you get over 600damage out of your BBs than I might miss something). Let's say that your 2 ITs crits you get what? 8000-10000 damage? and than DC... 4000-6000 damage? for a grant total of 12,000-16,000 damage IF AND ONLY IF EVERYTHING CRITS!? No seriously, everyone and their mother run with 20,000+ hps nowaday!

You can DG? oh yes... but... after your DG they will switch to your partner and own his face cause you can't peel after that.

Anyways, that being said, it's a really good post and to be honest with you I've been thinking to level my Warlock for 2-3 weeks now. 3.1 will be my reason to level it or continue with my DK

Also i think the Dk is controlable atm, what makes him op is the synergy with the pally dispelling every stun/snare while beeing pretty hard to kill even without the Dk peeling much. Pretty much 95% of all highrated DK teams also have a pally. The other two strong 2on2 dps classes (hunters,warlocks) generally do a lot better with a shaman or priest healer because their playstyle isnt only centered around doing damage.


Oh.. and I find Warlock/Paladin to be harder than any shaman/priest counterparts
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#7 Vólrath1296679520

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 02:32 PM

I agree with this post. It's funny cause me and my friends have discussed class roles a lot in wotlk, since it seems they've been mixed up/merged (i.e hunters->warriors).

And like you said:
"what will happen if they just nerf our damage and don't compensate it with anything? I'll dare to say we are going to be, omfg, underpowered." - You will become the way warriors are now.
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#8 Nifti

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 03:24 PM

Oh.. and I find Warlock/Paladin to be harder than any shaman/priest counterparts


What i meant was that Warlock and Hunter do better paired with a shaman or a priest than a dk would, because your peel just isnt good enough.
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#9 Haks

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 03:47 PM

A DK only brings two things to an Arena. His damage and survivability.


Absolutely untrue. DK's also bring some of the absolute best spacial control possible short of a frost mage or survival hunter, and can defensively support their partners better than literally anyone else in the game.

Pre-tears are almost as good as the inevitable real ones. I can't believe you wasted that much time typing that all up.

EDIT: Stated from the standpoint of someone playing with a DK, and receiving the peels in question. NOTHING lets me run around and do whatever I want like my 2v2 DK partner can. It's not only an insanely simple class to play, it simplifies my job to nearly an equally faceroll level. After winning games, our most common reaction is laughter on vent.
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#10 Kellhus

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 03:50 PM

Absolutely untrue. DK's also bring some of the absolute best spacial control possible short of a frost mage or survival hunter, and can defensively support their partners better than literally anyone else in the game.

Pre-tears are almost as good as the inevitable real ones. I can't believe you wasted that much time typing that all up.



Making sweeping statements you don't even bother to backup is the core requirement of a WoW board post, a place where honestly this post is better suited.

The guy lodged some valid complaints and backed them up, do the same or gtfo.
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#11 Kellhus

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 03:56 PM

We are harder to prevent from doing damage than some ranged classes (prevent a frostmage from casting FBs and he's not gonna do much).


You're overstating -- this is true of one spec, a spec that will not be valid post 3.1.

Outside of shadowfrost damage will be incredibly low outside of melee range, low to the point of irrelevant. Against a target with 20k hp my plagues ticking for 1k-ish combined every 3 seconds assuming they aren't dispeled as fast as I apply them -- and a parrot can piss harder than my BB's hit, but it's only used for the snare effect anyway.

Not saying we're underpowered, but without the IT beast it will be easier to limit our damage more once the target kiting us gets a step.
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#12 yoyoyoyo

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 05:22 PM

A DK brings nothing or very little of other things which are generally considered useful in Arena. Those things being . . . peeling (playing defensively, helping your team mate(s) survive, slowing down enemy damage)




dks can't peel? rly? rly rly?
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#13 Aqueous

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 05:26 PM

Haha, I have to agree with Yox4 - DKs have arguably the best peeling capabilities of any class in the game. No other melee class has a repeatable psuedo-immobilisation ability AND can actually MOVE an enemy away from their team mate.

Generally speaking though it does sometimes make me wonder if theyre trying to tend DKs towards Dark Retadins in their playstyle, strengths and weaknesses.
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#14 Guest_Alphatier_*

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 05:40 PM

Making sweeping statements you don't even bother to backup is the core requirement of a WoW board post, a place where honestly this post is better suited.

The guy lodged some valid complaints and backed them up, do the same or gtfo.


why does he have to back them up?
do you not know what abilities dks have, are you really that stupid that he has to list them for you ?
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#15 Sagasu

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 05:45 PM

It's way harder to kite a DK than most other melee


Is where I stopped reading.
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#16 Desmond

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 05:49 PM

Absolutely untrue. DK's also bring some of the absolute best spacial control possible short of a frost mage or survival hunter, and can defensively support their partners better than literally anyone else in the game.

Pre-tears are almost as good as the inevitable real ones. I can't believe you wasted that much time typing that all up.

EDIT: Stated from the standpoint of someone playing with a DK, and receiving the peels in question. NOTHING lets me run around and do whatever I want like my 2v2 DK partner can. It's not only an insanely simple class to play, it simplifies my job to nearly an equally faceroll level. After winning games, our most common reaction is laughter on vent.



why does he have to back them up?
do you not know what abilities dks have, are you really that stupid that he has to list them for you ?



I don't know whether this is druid togetherness time or what, but "DKs have the best control behind frost mages and surv hunters" is an incredibly debatable statement that just gets thrown here as hyperbole. Would you consider chains of ice, death grip and ghoul stun as better control than fear + death coil + CoEX? What about slow, sheep, nova? Imp hamstring + intercept? Where is the line?

Furthermore, looking at his edit, perhaps we can solidify his statement as: "To peel for the class with arguably the best mobility in the game, a class that has a 30 yard ranged snare makes the game facerollingly easy". That's constructive, limited though it may be. "LOL DKS MAKE THE GAME SO EASY I CAN FACEROLL CUZ THEY HAVE THE CC OF A SURVIVAL HUNTER OR FROST MAGE" is not.

I think there's a lot of frustration on both sides of the coin when it comes to DKs. Some people get slowed repeatedly with no outs and feel like they're being CC'd. Conversely, some DKs, myself included, have experienced the frustration of being able to do absolutely nothing to save my healer when my ghoul stun is on CD and a freedom'd target is chasing him.


It's degenerating discussions like this which are causing people to say AJ is becoming WoW forums 2.0. I enjoyed reading and occasionally participating in the discussions back in the day, but there is a lot of that old sense of mutual respect which is gone now. Though I'm quite surprised to see that sort of thing being endorsed by blue colored names.
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#17 fuuga

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:04 PM

DKs have pummel/ghoul stun or HC/CoI/aoe snares/blanket silence/grip. They have quite a bit of utility/peels to go with their damage.

Main problem with CoI is just that it is too weak against dispelling teams, and way too strong against non-dispel teams. I'm kind of hoping they tone chains down a bit now that they are giving all 3 specs undispellable 50% snares.
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totems alone are more buttons than rogues use you fucking downie

inb4 delete


#18 Ulali

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:11 PM

we have good peels against teams w/o a priest/pally/lock. we have shitty peels against a team with a priest/pally/lock. death gripping to peel is situational, like the op said it is really only extrememly effective against a mutilate rogue, if i death grip a dk he will grip my partner thus causing nothing to happen, gripping a warrior makes him get an easy intercept.

obviously u wait for those times but smart dks (idk if warriors do this cuz i dont play 1) will save their grip for when they get gripped away or the other dk uses theirs offensively.
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#19 Kellhus

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:14 PM

why does he have to back them up?
do you not know what abilities dks have, are you really that stupid that he has to list them for you ?


All druids are hermaphrodites that troll bus station bathrooms.

What, you want me to back up my claim with anything resembling useful information? Why? Are you so stupid that I have to tell you why the thing I just made up and presented as fact is true?
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#20 Haks

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:20 PM

@ Litlevil

Furthermore, looking at his edit, perhaps we can solidify his statement as: "To peel for the class with arguably the best mobility in the game, a class that has a 30 yard ranged snare makes the game facerollingly easy". That's constructive, limited though it may be. "LOL DKS MAKE THE GAME SO EASY I CAN FACEROLL CUZ THEY HAVE THE CC OF A SURVIVAL HUNTER OR FROST MAGE" is not.


I'm healing the DK on a holy paladin as well as resto druid.

:P
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