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Hpal/Dk vs Hunter/pally- need help please!


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#21 Dunsparrow

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 02:31 PM

By the looks of your armory you're 9-1 against Hunter/Pally across 3 teams. On the other hand, you're 7-15 against DK/Pally mirrors across like 7 teams, I didn't count them all. (+3 losses to DK/Priest) Of your 7 wins against mirrors, 4 were the same team. I think this shows the possibility of some teams of a specific comp just being flat out better players than other teams of the same comp, no? So no, the time doesn't "always come eventually". There are some Hunter/Pallies that some of the people in this thread have played that maybe just might be better than the ones you've fought. Just like that one DK/Pally team you 4-0'd, then managed to only scrape up 3 wins in 18 other games. :)


That data is incomplete, because I can think of at least 2 losses to hunter/pally to disconnects and at least 1 to a crazy RNG gib.

And yes, we struggle in mirrors, primarily because my new partner had never played with anyone but a warlock and wasnt used to getting focused. He's getting a lot better though and we held our own against all the mirrors we faced last night. Thank you for your interest.

The problem with all the armory stalking you guys have lavished on me is that it does not refute anything I say. Even assuming I am the worst player imaginable, the points I make still require direct refutation, which none of you have provided. Is the truth, spoken by a fool, any less true?

You say "man idk what to do but like every time i tunnel the paly i cant seem to win" so I say "dont tunnel the paly" and your response is "lawl i spent 2 hours poring through your arena games and even though you are 9-1 against hunter/paly, you're bad." We've won a lot more than 9 against this comp, but even with your own "research" you proved me right. I wasn't lying when I said we straight up farm this team.

Get fucked, morons.

How the hell do you spread damage between targets? Don't tell me that enemy Hunter is cuddling with his Paladin. Beside everything said after my last post, this is ridiculous.

And believe me we fought that Hunter Team more then just once, and we didn't stand a chance with neither tactic.
Tunneling the hunter results in a very long match, but enemy Paladin can just get his manareg on because you can't burst the hunter down, while he kites you perfectly through his frost trap and times his defensive cds very well. For example every time i get in melee rang, he always uses feign death which cost me aprox. a second to re target him, after that i get a scatter or stun or what ever and again I am slowed while he nukes me like hell.


http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49576
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51429

Also, make a /targetlasttarget macro so you dont waste time on feigns.
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#22 Elraen

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 04:48 PM

I'll just repeat what I said earlier: if you're facing a NON-RETARD hunter, there's a very low chance you're going to kill him first or even be able to focus him for an extended period of time. Here's why:

-2 frost traps
-entrapment
-Master's Call
-Hand of Freedom
-Tranq shot removes YOUR hand of freedom
-disengage
-pet charge
-pin
-TNT stun spam

If he's NOT A BADDIE OMGZ FACEROLLER HUNTARD you're going to be stuck in frost traps A LOT. I guess for me, it's easier to spot the difference because I also play a hunter. What makes it worse is that every time you trigger one of those traps, he's going to unload 3 explosive shots into you-and you're not going to have AMS for every one of those bursts.

Yesterday, we twice fought one of the higher rated hunter/pally teams in my BG. They got us the first time, but the second time, we beat them pretty strongly. Let me tell you how the match went down-blade's edge (long story inc).

*After losing the first time, my paladin and I decided that after we saw 2 frost traps up top, we'd jump down, and if things were ugly, we were going to meet behind the pillar on our side of the map to reset, heal up, etc. Not only does this get us away from frost traps, but it makes them chase us around pillars if they want to keep up the pressure-which is going to hurt the hunter's damage.

I started off on the hunter and immediately spread diseases and BBd. Not only does this force him to disengage immediately, but it start pressuring his pet. DG him back in. He gets freedom, I get freedom. SHIT TNT STUNNED. SHIT TNT STUNNED AGAIN FUCK. I switch to pally who's humping a pillar. Work him a little, make him burn some mana healing and freedom on himself, go back to hunter who won't have freedom for a bit. OH SNAP MASTER'S CALL, TNT STUNNED AGAIN. At this point a few CC chains have gone down on my pally, there are frost traps all over the bridge but I'm sticking in there with death pact, AMS, etc, but we decide to fall back to our pillar at the bottom.

Working them around the bottom works MUCH better-harder for them to chain CC my pally, easier for me to fall back behind a pillar when things get ugly and my pally is CCd. I get the paladin to burn his bubble AND manage to kill the hunter's pet (many pestilence/blood boils later he's pretty low and they're trying to kill me, so I taunt the crab, LoS the hunter, and death strike spam him, healing myself while finishing him off). There goes pin, charge, master's call, but more importantly, roar of sacrifice and intervene on the paladin.

I keep swapping back and forth until second gargoyle comes up. At this point, the pally is basically OOM, around half life, and the hunter is in Viper, so he's not doing jack for damage. My pally calls out that he's CCd-I'm around 2/3 life. Knowing the hunter is low on mana, I go ahead and pop gargoyle, ERW and just keep laying into the paladin. GG.

The morals of the story:

-You'll never kill a GOOD hunter or his pet by sitting only on either one.
-Fight near a pillar so you can LoS/play defensively when your pally is CCd.
-If your pally isn't in danger of a CC chain, don't waste your CDs-make sure they're up when he's wyvern/scatter/HoJ/rep'd.
-When you KNOW that both freedom and disengage are on CD, and/or the hunter is low on mana and is in Viper, you can sit on the hunter for a few seconds to stop him from doing damage OR you can just ignore him and tunnel vision the pally a little since he'll be doing half damage.

Just my experiences though.
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#23 Samurro

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:24 PM

http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49576
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=51429

Also, make a /targetlasttarget macro so you dont waste time on feigns.


The only moron here, is you, sorry for that. Clicking that macro or self re targeting the hunter is same shit.
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#24 Nightfury

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:41 PM

The only moron here, is you, sorry for that. Clicking that macro or self re targeting the hunter is same shit.


Try keybinding the macro
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#25 Socio

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:43 PM

That data is incomplete, because I can think of at least 2 losses to hunter/pally to disconnects and at least 1 to a crazy RNG gib.

And yes, we struggle in mirrors, primarily because my new partner had never played with anyone but a warlock and wasnt used to getting focused. He's getting a lot better though and we held our own against all the mirrors we faced last night. Thank you for your interest.

The problem with all the armory stalking you guys have lavished on me is that it does not refute anything I say. Even assuming I am the worst player imaginable, the points I make still require direct refutation, which none of you have provided. Is the truth, spoken by a fool, any less true?

You say "man idk what to do but like every time i tunnel the paly i cant seem to win" so I say "dont tunnel the paly" and your response is "lawl i spent 2 hours poring through your arena games and even though you are 9-1 against hunter/paly, you're bad." We've won a lot more than 9 against this comp, but even with your own "research" you proved me right. I wasn't lying when I said we straight up farm this team.

Get fucked, morons.


Oh sorry, I forgot the data DIRECTLY FROM THE OPPONENTS YOU'VE FACED ON THE ARMORY isn't correct.

If you notice I never once said you were bad, and pointed out that (I know this is hard to believe) MAYBE some of the 3 hunter teams you fought just happened to not be that good compared to some of the others people in this thread were talking about.

It took me a whole 5 minutes to see the opponents you fought against and when you post something as stupid as "lol guyz you should farm them!" when you were barely holding 2k as it is then of course people are going to question your credibility.

Almost half of your wins against the comp were from the SAME team. Of course they were super awesome and that particular team couldn't be worse than others employing a different strategy, right? The other 5 wins were against only TWO other teams. Meanwhile you 4-0 a mirror, and lose 3-18 against the other mirrors. If that isn't pretty obvious evidence to show you that some teams are good and some aren't as good comparatively then I'm not sure what to tell you. Basically all I'm trying to say here is: You are not always 100% correct, even in your own little world of thinking you're the biggest badass over everyone else. You do not always have the "surefire" solution to everything.

And since you like making excuses: 5 nights after my Paladin hit 80 with him in 2 piece 10 man tier 7, a pvp trinket, titansteel shield wall (lol tanking shield)/defender and full blues otherwise we hit 2200 in 2s. This was his first time ever playing a paladin in arenas. Maybe if you realized you're not perfect instead of blaming your losses on your partner, your team would be a higher rating.

Oh, and by the way. Doing damage as a DK is a good thing. Maybe you should learn how: http://img230.images...30309224653.jpg

You get fucked, self-righteous wanna-be. I thought there was a rule somewhere about at least being a top tier player to be a stuck-up asshole all the time to everyone.
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#26 bighandxyz

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 06:52 PM

I sit on pally pretty hard, and just ask my healer to sac me and spam heal me. hunters can't do much to peel me off except a well timed TnT. Once pally have freedom, I switch back to hunter. Eventually one of them drop, but 99% of the time its the pally.
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#27 Dunsparrow

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 07:26 PM

Oh sorry, I forgot the data DIRECTLY FROM THE OPPONENTS YOU'VE FACED ON THE ARMORY isn't correct.


Yes, thats exactly what I'm saying. The armory data is incomplete at best. As I was looking for screenshots to mock you (see below), I ran across this screenshot of us beating some hunter/pal team that is not listed in the opponent history on my armory.

http://i19.photobuck...a2v20307091.jpg

The armor data is incomplete! Who would have seen that coming?! Oh, you mean I said that in my last post?

Oh, and by the way. Doing damage as a DK is a good thing. Maybe you should learn how: http://img230.images...30309224653.jpg

You get fucked, self-righteous wanna-be. I thought there was a rule somewhere about at least being a top tier player to be a stuck-up asshole all the time to everyone.


Did you really just link a screenshot of your damage done in some lame attempt to prove something? War/DK training down a warlock in 30 seconds and then killing me and paly while we stood there. Good job on damage done! Beating a boredom pug is awesome! :rolleyes:

http://i19.photobuck...v3TR0303091.jpg

Oh look, I did double your damage in the same amount of time. By your own logic, I guess I'm twice as good as you. Genius.
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#28 Exiledshmoo

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 07:39 PM

Yes, thats exactly what I'm saying. The armory data is incomplete at best. As I was looking for screenshots to mock you (see below), I ran across this screenshot of us beating some hunter/pal team that is not listed in the opponent history on my armory.

http://i19.photobuck...a2v20307091.jpg

The armor data is incomplete! Who would have seen that coming?! Oh, you mean I said that in my last post?



Did you really just link a screenshot of your damage done in some lame attempt to prove something? War/DK training down a warlock in 30 seconds and then killing me and paly while we stood there. Good job on damage done! Beating a boredom pug is awesome! :rolleyes:

http://i19.photobuck...v3TR0303091.jpg

Oh look, I did double your damage in the same amount of time. By your own logic, I guess I'm twice as good as you. Genius.


I laughed at the part where Dun posted completely worthless info to make himself feel better because he is an anal retentive paranoid child afraid to leave the basement.

Lets see, a sreenie of Socio > you
Socio proves his point that you fought very few and overall crappy hunter teams, so your opinion of you should farm them holds little weight.

Dude I am at 2k and I farm x/x comp as x/x you guys at 2400 should totally farm them too!

It may be hard for you to grasp, but teams at the top of the ladder play differently. They are at the top for a reason, they have figured out and adapted their strats.

If you are going to post Dun, provide actual relevant information to prove or further a point.
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#29 Dunsparrow

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 07:45 PM

I laughed at the part where Dun posted completely worthless info to make himself feel better because he is an anal retentive paranoid child afraid to leave the basement.

Lets see, a sreenie of Socio > you
Socio proves his point that you fought very few and overall crappy hunter teams, so your opinion of you should farm them holds little weight.

Dude I am at 2k and I farm x/x comp as x/x you guys at 2400 should totally farm them too!

It may be hard for you to grasp, but teams at the top of the ladder play differently. They are at the top for a reason, they have figured out and adapted their strats.

If you are going to post Dun, provide actual relevant information to prove or further a point.


I did and it was ignored. Now I'm just doing what he did.
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#30 Persidios

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 07:48 PM

My team has recently come across quite a few hunter/paladin teams and we've had the greatest success focusing the hunter.
You need to time rep/HoJ/Strang/gnaw on the paladin when his hunter is ~70%, this will force a bubble almost 90% of the time.
When using these cooldowns you should have IBF up to prevent the TnT stuns.
After the bubble, make sure you just rotate defensive cooldowns when your paladin is in CC, survive until the next strangulate, or go for a kill if the opportunity knocks with gargoyle popped and rep/HoJ/Gnaw combo.
We use the first rotation of rep/Hoj to kill the pet, second one to force bubble, third one to go for the kill.
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#31 Dunsparrow

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 07:49 PM

My team has recently come across quite a few hunter/paladin teams and we've had the greatest success focusing the hunter.
You need to time rep/HoJ/Strang/gnaw on the paladin when his hunter is ~70%, this will force a bubble almost 90% of the time.
When using these cooldowns you should have IBF up to prevent the TnT stuns.
After the bubble, make sure you just rotate defensive cooldowns when your paladin is in CC, survive until the next strangulate, or go for a kill if the opportunity knocks with gargoyle popped and rep/HoJ/Gnaw combo.
We use the first rotation of rep/Hoj to kill the pet, second one to force bubble, third one to go for the kill.


This is exactly how you beat good hunter teams. If you try to tunnel the paladin you will get shit on.
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#32 Elraen

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 08:36 PM

This is exactly how you beat good hunter teams. If you try to tunnel the paladin you will get shit on.


No one has ever said "only tunnel paladin." What they have said is that GOOD hunters just aren't going to get owned as easily as you're implying.

It's rather amusing that most of the "kill hunter" strats are coming from medium ranked/rated DKs while the higher ranked/higher rated DKs are saying "you're probably going to kill the paladin first." This should be a testament to the quality of hunters riding their current "spam explosive frost trap win" status versus those who actually know what they're doing.
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#33 Donkeykonng

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 10:42 PM

It's rather amusing that most of the "kill hunter" strats are coming from medium ranked/rated DKs while the higher ranked/higher rated DKs are saying "you're probably going to kill the paladin first." This should be a testament to the quality of hunters riding their current "spam explosive frost trap win" status versus those who actually know what they're doing.


^^

take ur argument to private messeges man im tryign to get some info here, everyoens advice is appreciated but i dont wana see arguments about ur rating and how many games uve played and stuff
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#34 KobK

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 10:44 PM

Yea, be in frost pres and normally we focus pally.
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#35 Persidios

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 11:19 PM

Personally I don't see how my paladin will ever be able to keep me up when the hunter is matching my DPS while having a MS debuff up.

A wyvern > rep > HoJ > trap combo of some sort will eventually lead to my death with the hunters damage along with the paladin being able to help him.

The hunter will have no problem CC'ing my paladin because he does not have to worry about me being on him.

Yes, going for a quick switch onto the paladin is viable, but if we are talking about top notch hunters then we must assume he knows how to peel as well, which in most cases leads to me blowing my CD's to no avail.

Just my two cents, but I believe the focus the hunter strat to be more effective and have less room for error.
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#36 Elraen

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 12:37 AM

Personally I don't see how my paladin will ever be able to keep me up when the hunter is matching my DPS while having a MS debuff up.

A wyvern > rep > HoJ > trap combo of some sort will eventually lead to my death with the hunters damage along with the paladin being able to help him.

The hunter will have no problem CC'ing my paladin because he does not have to worry about me being on him.

Yes, going for a quick switch onto the paladin is viable, but if we are talking about top notch hunters then we must assume he knows how to peel as well, which in most cases leads to me blowing my CD's to no avail.

Just my two cents, but I believe the focus the hunter strat to be more effective and have less room for error.


If you're sitting on a paladin, he's going to try to LoS you-he's not going to just be sitting out in the open. If he's running around a pillar, that means you probably aren't going to be taking much damage from the hunter. If he IS standing out in the open, you ought to be completely smashing his face in and forcing his bubble/killing him-if you can't kill or force a paladin to bubble while he's out in the open, you need to practice a little more.

A few other things to keep in mind:

-don't chase either the hunter or the paladin across a frost trap unless you have freedom AND you have death grip up AND you are about to finish one of them off.
*He'll just drop another trap and you're going to be stuck getting spam entrapped on 2 frost traps eating a shitload of explosive shots. BAD.

-You don't ALWAYS have to be trying to kill something.
*If things are going poorly, huddle up with your healer and reset the fight.

-Don't death grip the paladin A) until his freedom is down, B) until he's away from a frost trap, or C) unless you're about to kill him.

-Don't death grip the hunter A) unless freedom is down, B) unless disengage is dow, C) unless you're about to kill him or D) unless you're pulling him out of LoS of a heal.

-Kill the crab. He loses pin, charge, master's call, intervene, and roar of sacrifice. He'll then have to hard 10s cast to get another.
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#37 Dunsparrow

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 01:23 AM

If you're sitting on a paladin, he's going to try to LoS you-he's not going to just be sitting out in the open. If he's running around a pillar, that means you probably aren't going to be taking much damage from the hunter. If he IS standing out in the open, you ought to be completely smashing his face in and forcing his bubble/killing him-if you can't kill or force a paladin to bubble while he's out in the open, you need to practice a little more.

A few other things to keep in mind:

-don't chase either the hunter or the paladin across a frost trap unless you have freedom AND you have death grip up AND you are about to finish one of them off.
*He'll just drop another trap and you're going to be stuck getting spam entrapped on 2 frost traps eating a shitload of explosive shots. BAD.

-You don't ALWAYS have to be trying to kill something.
*If things are going poorly, huddle up with your healer and reset the fight.

-Don't death grip the paladin A) until his freedom is down, B) until he's away from a frost trap, or C) unless you're about to kill him.

-Don't death grip the hunter A) unless freedom is down, B) unless disengage is dow, C) unless you're about to kill him or D) unless you're pulling him out of LoS of a heal.

-Kill the crab. He loses pin, charge, master's call, intervene, and roar of sacrifice. He'll then have to hard 10s cast to get another.


Everything here is either completely obvious or wrong.

A competent paladin is not going to pillar his own hunter to escape you, he's going to run through frost traps just like a hunter would. If you're saying "if you cant kill a paladin while he kites through frost traps then you need to practice more" then you're retarded.

Resetting the fight for no reason does not necessarily benefit you. Keeping diseases up on all 3 targets and killing by attrition is very effective. If you back off, they benefit from the reset as well.

Everything else is as obvious as your hand in front of your face.
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#38 Elraen

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 02:31 AM

Normally, I don't break up posts here, but I'll do it just this once because you just don't get it.

Everything here is either completely obvious or wrong.


Have fun killing tardo hunters around the 2000s because they're bad and are getting there because of their class being OP right now. When you start fighting hunters who aren't completely bad, you'll be whistling a different tune-I guarantee it.

A competent paladin is not going to pillar his own hunter to escape you, he's going to run through frost traps just like a hunter would. If you're saying "if you cant kill a paladin while he kites through frost traps then you need to practice more" then you're retarded.


You seriously need to learn to read.

I've said over and over in this thread that you should start on the hunter and force freedom on the hunter-when he gets it, you get on the paladin-with blood boil, gnaw, HoJ up, and his freedom down, he's not going anywhere, and there's a good chance you'll get his trinket and/or bubble right there.

Your scenario of "sit on hunter, CC/lock out paladin" just doesn't work because no *competent* hunter is going to let you lay into him during that time-quite the opposite-if you've CCd his paladin, yours is probably CCd too, and you're going to be chasing him at 40% speed or entrapped. He won't need freedom because he's got master's call, disengage, pet charge, pin, and deterrence. By the time you get a second "pally lock down" combo ready (assuming you've waited for strangulate), he'll have already wyverned YOUR paladin twice, had at least 3 disengages up, 2 master's calls, will have deterrence back up, and at least 4 frost traps. Again-the scenario you've described entails beating inexperienced, bad hunters.

Resetting the fight for no reason does not necessarily benefit you. Keeping diseases up on all 3 targets and killing by attrition is very effective. If you back off, they benefit from the reset as well.


I totally said "reset for no reason." Here are some reasons you might fall back, get healed up, and maybe wait for a CD or two:

-you're getting owned and have an easy LoS from the hunter
-your pally is CCd
-the only path to the hunter involves getting across 2 frost traps

You're not going to win a long, mana war against them. Aimed shot takes care of that.

Let me just reiterate what I said a few posts up:

It's rather amusing that most of the "kill hunter" strats are coming from medium ranked/rated DKs while the higher ranked/higher rated DKs are saying "you're probably going to kill the paladin first." This should be a testament to the quality of hunters riding their current "spam explosive frost trap win" status versus those who actually know what they're doing.

The 2400+ dk/paladins in this thread, you know, the ones at or near the top of their battlegroups, are saying that you're probably going to kill the paladin before you kill the hunter. There's a reason for this.

If you're content with only beating mediocre hunter teams, keep doing what you're doing.
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#39 Socio

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Posted 17 March 2009 - 05:38 AM

Yes, thats exactly what I'm saying. The armory data is incomplete at best. As I was looking for screenshots to mock you (see below), I ran across this screenshot of us beating some hunter/pal team that is not listed in the opponent history on my armory.

http://i19.photobuck...a2v20307091.jpg

The armor data is incomplete! Who would have seen that coming?! Oh, you mean I said that in my last post?

Did you really just link a screenshot of your damage done in some lame attempt to prove something? War/DK training down a warlock in 30 seconds and then killing me and paly while we stood there. Good job on damage done! Beating a boredom pug is awesome! :rolleyes:

http://i19.photobuck...v3TR0303091.jpg

Oh look, I did double your damage in the same amount of time. By your own logic, I guess I'm twice as good as you. Genius.


http://www.wowarmory...4&b=Stormstrike

Okay, you got me. You beat 2k rated hunter/pally teams consistantly. Grats to you. My point still stands that you think you have the answer all the time, when there are people in this thread with higher ratings than you telling you it hasn't worked for them and another method works too while you continue to refute it. So either they are worse than you are, or you're fighting worse hunter/paladin teams. Perhaps a combination of both. I won't say more than that about it.

And no, my point with that is more to show that you aren't always what you make yourself out to be. You should man up and admit when you fuck up or think you should do something better rather than saying other people are wrong or doing something the wrong way as it seems you do all the time.

As I remember you didn't really do much of anything as far as putting out pressure or peeling, which is what I was getting at. We certainly didn't "zerg the warlock in 30 seconds" as I distinctly remember starting the game sitting on you. Warrior on the lock, I start on the DK and start putting out solid multi-target pressure, quick swap and blow the lock up when the opportunity came. If we simply blew up the lock there's no way he'd get off even 10k damage with a dispeller around. (Although he did die quite fast when I did swap since there wasn't much peeling going on. :P)

http://www.wowarmory...22&b=Coliseum 1

You can try to mock me all you want, I know when I screw up or don't do something I should and I try to learn from it.

In any case, I agree with Sin for the most part. What strat you need to use varies greatly on the playstyle of the team and what's happening in the game. You can go in and say you're going to simply train the paladin or hunter, but it doesn't really work that way against good players. Keep working them both down and adjust your gameplan as you go if they make mistakes you can capitalize on. Sometimes yes, you can kill the hunter. Other times it'll be the Paladin.
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#40 GLopez

GLopez
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Posted 17 March 2009 - 05:46 AM

http://i19.photobuck...a2v20307091.jpg
http://i19.photobuck...v3TR0303091.jpg

Do you click or turn with arrow keys? I don't get your keybindings at all. O_o
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