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ShadowFrost Explained - READ FIRST


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#21 codeviper

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 09:38 PM

Okay well, im 21/50, one question though
How will this spec work in pve?


Currently right now, its one of the highest dps specs (IT spam). There's subtle tweaks between the pve and the pvp build but its really not that much.
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#22 keke

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Posted 08 March 2009 - 02:30 AM

120 spell pen overkill? (I'm a JC, so it's obtainable)

Should I use my 4pcDeadly or use 3pcPVE/2pcDeadly or 2pcPVE(Shoulders+Legs)/3pcDeadly?
I have t7.5 chest/shoulders/legs (can't get helm cause of gay guild DKP)

I run DK/Frost Mage btw
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#23 Daerwen

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 07:31 PM

There is no real this gear is best kinda thing, its all situational depending on how much you get focused on, and how aggressive you are. Going with a mage would imply that you need to be aggressive on one hand, yet youll also likely be the focussed target thus youll be taking the hits. Just go with what feel right.

Just wanted to let people know wheres more then 1 way to play a shadowfrost spec like build. Personally I use something like
http://www.wowhead.c...ZfMGI0bkxcq0soh

This build you get endless winter and chill of the grave. The benefit of using this build is altho you might have slightly less powerfull icy touches you have a bit more utility. For example when playing Holy pala / DK vs a mirror team I often find myself chain of icing the paladin out of range of his DK and put a chain of ice on the DK, giving my pala time to heal or get range and keeping dots running on em. Potentially leading to a swap to him when the fight drags on longer.

Just saying dont think your ONLY using frost runes for icy touches, if you play smart you can also use chains of ice to LOS the dps from his healer so dont just stick to blood boil for snares.
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#24 Fayde

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 01:05 PM

Blood Presence offers the hardest hits and highest sustained damage. If your spec does not take Unholy Aura then you wont have a speed bonus in this presence and may want to avoid it. This presence is typically used in games which which take longer (for instance if you 2v2 with a healer and run into another dps/healer comp).


Do you, or anyone, have any numbers to back this up? Because from the few tests I've done, I get higher sustained DPS on training dummies with Unholy Presence.
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#25 Dynimight

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 03:11 PM

Do you, or anyone, have any numbers to back this up? Because from the few tests I've done, I get higher sustained DPS on training dummies with Unholy Presence.


There's no way to unload all of your runes and RP as shadowfrost in BP. I also get slightly higher sustained damage in unholy presence on a test dummy.

I've been trying blood presence for a bit now, but I just don't really like it =/ I felt like I could burst a lot harder in unholy presence, and ended up doing about the same damage overall. Personal preference, no doubt, but I prefer unholy presence to blood in the vast majority of situations.
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you're all subconsciously racists. hunters are fine.


#26 Dunsparrow

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 03:33 PM

There's no way to unload all of your runes and RP as shadowfrost in BP. I also get slightly higher sustained damage in unholy presence on a test dummy.

I've been trying blood presence for a bit now, but I just don't really like it =/ I felt like I could burst a lot harder in unholy presence, and ended up doing about the same damage overall. Personal preference, no doubt, but I prefer unholy presence to blood in the vast majority of situations.


If you cut one PS from your rotation you will do more damage in Blood.

Rotation:

PS, IT, IT, BB, BB, DC
PS, IT, IT, IT, IT, DC, DC

You can easily fit that rotation in Blood Presence and it will outdamage Unholy.
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#27 Daerwen

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 03:51 PM

ye , sure, if you get 100% uptime on your target. Witch if you do play at higher rated means your playing teams that are crap enough to not support each other. Sure, half of your 'rotation' is spells and ranged, but they dont do nothing if your not in LOS. You can never say X rotation or Y rotation is better since this is PVP, its all situational. Given ideal circumstances , yes, BP will outdmg UP. When is the last time you found yourself playing in ideal circumstances? Theory only applies so far, it gets thrown out of the window when the opposition decides to throw your little party apart with peals and CC.
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#28 Dunsparrow

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 04:04 PM

ye , sure, if you get 100% uptime on your target. Witch if you do play at higher rated means your playing teams that are crap enough to not support each other. Sure, half of your 'rotation' is spells and ranged, but they dont do nothing if your not in LOS. You can never say X rotation or Y rotation is better since this is PVP, its all situational. Given ideal circumstances , yes, BP will outdmg UP. When is the last time you found yourself playing in ideal circumstances? Theory only applies so far, it gets thrown out of the window when the opposition decides to throw your little party apart with peals and CC.


If you're DK/Paladin and fighting a mirror match you're going to get a ton of up time on your target. Obviously, things are situational but saying you cant plan for any situation is stupid.
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#29 Daerwen

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 04:21 PM

I never said dont plan for any situation now did I. If you're facing a competent mirrormatch that other DK will support his DK whilst that other paladin is most likely pillar kiting. If they don't, then im pretty sure you would kill that team anyway even if you wouldn't have an ideal 'rotation'. Should this for whatever stupid reason be the case, then ye blood presence might win in the long run. However I would suggest sticking to unholy presence most of the time to be sure to squeeze out as much dps as you can during your up time. Also, unholy presence gives you more flexibility. Nothing as annoying as your paladin needing a breather right that instant and your waiting 1.5 sec for a GCD, its a looooong time in pvp
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#30 Dynimight

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 04:23 PM

If you cut one PS from your rotation you will do more damage in Blood.

Rotation:

PS, IT, IT, BB, BB, DC
PS, IT, IT, IT, IT, DC, DC

You can easily fit that rotation in Blood Presence and it will outdamage Unholy.

In a strict pve rotation, maybe, but try to do anything else you're going to be doing in a normal arena match (refresh bone shield, IBF, summon a new ghoul, blood tap or ERW), and you lose out on globals in BP that you don't get back.

Against most comps besides Unholy/holy mirror, you're not going to be on a target 100% of the time, so being able to unload your runes quickly becomes more valuable.

Plus, it sounds like a lot of people sit in blood presence and use their runes as soon they come off cooldown. Maybe I'm the odd man out here, but I find it much more practical to avoid using my runes on CD and set up my burst against paladins. Get to 100 RP, get 2 deathrunes, wait out the freedom, summon ghoul or wait on gnaw CD, then unload. Regardless of what anyone tries to say, unholy presence will always be burstier in these situations.
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you're all subconsciously racists. hunters are fine.


#31 Fayde

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 04:24 PM

If you cut one PS from your rotation you will do more damage in Blood.

Rotation:

PS, IT, IT, BB, BB, DC
PS, IT, IT, IT, IT, DC, DC

You can easily fit that rotation in Blood Presence and it will outdamage Unholy.


Nice answer... I don't mind at all if you prove me wrong, but prove is the key word here, not just saying I'm wrong.

Do you, or anyone, have any numbers to back this up? Because from the few tests I've done, I get higher sustained DPS on training dummies with Unholy Presence.


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#32 Dunsparrow

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 04:28 PM

Nice answer. I don't mind at all if you prove me wrong, but prove is the key word here, not just saying I'm wrong.


Sorry, you dont get to compel people to do testing for you just by demanding it. Test it yourself or dont believe me. I couldnt care less.
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#33 Daerwen

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 04:32 PM

..
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#34 Fayde

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 04:33 PM

Sorry, you dont get to compel people to do testing for you just by demanding it. Test it yourself or dont believe me. I couldnt care less.


Do you, or anyone, have any numbers to back this up? Because from the few tests I've done, I get higher sustained DPS on training dummies with Unholy Presence.


Read the bolded parts, as you're obviously not reading my posts.

You posted a guide saying Blood Presence does more sustained damage as shadow frost, and yet you have no numbers backing this up?
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#35 Dunsparrow

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 06:45 PM

Read the bolded parts, as you're obviously not reading my posts.

You posted a guide saying Blood Presence does more sustained damage as shadow frost, and yet you have no numbers backing this up?


I know because I've tested DPS as various specs in various presences in PvE and in virtually all situations, Blood is superior. I do a lot of PvE and I've learned what works and what doesn't.

I realize that PvE is not arena but when you're talking about sustained damage on a target, Blood is going to win. If you don't have the GCDs then you drop the weakest parts of your rotation until you do.
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#36 hypermode

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 09:53 AM

I am just new to Shadowfrost, but was wondering, why do you pickup virulence? your hardly gonna let your diseases run out, seeing the only buttons you use are IT+PS+BS.

Also slightly off-topic, im looking for an addon with a customizable rune bar, anyone got any tips?
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#37 Kellhus

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 01:36 PM

I know because I've tested DPS as various specs in various presences in PvE and in virtually all situations, Blood is superior. I do a lot of PvE and I've learned what works and what doesn't.

I realize that PvE is not arena but when you're talking about sustained damage on a target, Blood is going to win. If you don't have the GCDs then you drop the weakest parts of your rotation until you do.



You can easily avoid arguement, which is something I've never actually seen you do, by just adding the phrase "in my experience" before you make statements you aren't willing to provide data on. You seem to have good experience base and views on things, it's just a pity you choose to act like a douche so often that it turns people off from reading them. Lighten up.

Beyond that 0/2x/5x (talent placement for the arena/pvp spec) is a comparitively low-end pve dps spec when viewed against any of the more traditionals (17/0/54, 5x/0/1x or 5x/1x/0 etc, etc) -- if you're an actual raider you aren't going to use this for pve, if you're running pugs and pve progression doesn't appeal to you (read as: you don't care about min/maxing pve damage) this spec will work fine outside of the arena as well.
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#38 shiverslol

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 02:03 PM

Might just be me but, in a mirror match against a paladin i simply CANNOT produce the dps to kill him without a nice timed strang followed by EPR then smash his face. (Well i can kill him without CD's but then i need assistance in the form of HoJ and a holy shock or sumin from my pala). Either way what i'm trying to say is killing a holypaladin is VERY hard at higher ratings. Especially since i play in full pvp gear (0 Pve gear). So in order to kill one i HAVE to be in unholy pres... Because in blood there is NOWAY that i can get off 6 IT's in the space of one strang... where as in unholy this becomes manageble with a strang gnaw comp. So i dno why you would say that blood is superior?

Seems to me like you have taken The over all DPS into account, but you left out the space of time inwhich it takes to produce the dps, if that makes sense
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#39 Dunsparrow

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 08:09 AM

I am just new to Shadowfrost, but was wondering, why do you pickup virulence? your hardly gonna let your diseases run out, seeing the only buttons you use are IT+PS+BS.

Also slightly off-topic, im looking for an addon with a customizable rune bar, anyone got any tips?


I assume you mean Epidemic, not Virulence. The main reason is for Blood Plague. You spam IT, but you dont necessarily spam PS. Remember that some classes (namely Paladins) have talents which reduce disease durations on them. A non-Epidemic disease will only last 6 seconds on a paladin with that talent.

Also, consider that you may disease up targets that you arent actively DPSing, either with Pestilence or just after switching targets. You want your diseases up as long as possible.

Might just be me but, in a mirror match against a paladin i simply CANNOT produce the dps to kill him without a nice timed strang followed by EPR then smash his face. (Well i can kill him without CD's but then i need assistance in the form of HoJ and a holy shock or sumin from my pala). Either way what i'm trying to say is killing a holypaladin is VERY hard at higher ratings. Especially since i play in full pvp gear (0 Pve gear). So in order to kill one i HAVE to be in unholy pres... Because in blood there is NOWAY that i can get off 6 IT's in the space of one strang... where as in unholy this becomes manageble with a strang gnaw comp. So i dno why you would say that blood is superior?

Seems to me like you have taken The over all DPS into account, but you left out the space of time inwhich it takes to produce the dps, if that makes sense


The situation you are talking about (bursting down a paladin during strangulate) is not a sustained damage situation. If you and his DK are beating on each other, THAT is a sustained damage situation. You are trying to give your paladin a mana advantage or cause him to make a mistake or fall behind on his healing.

Any time you are setting up a ERW burst, you should definitely be in UP because that will make the burst that much stronger. Burst != Sustained.
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#40 Petrah

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Posted 15 March 2009 - 03:37 PM

Moved to own post.
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