Jump to content

Photo

Hunters ARE BROKEN - A comprehensive look.


  • Please log in to reply
221 replies to this topic

#41 Gunnolf

Gunnolf
  • Junkies
  • Dwarfclass_name
  • US-Tichondrius
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 1,784
  • Talents: Shadow

Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:49 PM

Because it's a role reserved for the primary DPS classes (warriors,rogues,hunters) which have no other options. That is our JOB if you will in the arena it creates a good synergy in group composition where you want a healer you want a healing de-buff and you want a utility class.

Grab a healer
Priest
Druid
Shaman
Paladin

Grab a healing debuff
Hunter
Rogue
Warrior

Grab a caster/utility hybrid
Mage
Warlock
Feral
Shadow
Balance
Enh
Elemental
Ret
etc

This is what helps keep representation among the classses balanced.

Hunters Rogues and warriors should only be able to fill the healing debuff role, You shouldn't be able to grab one of us to be your utility.

Healers fullfil the healing role. You don't grab a healer to CC for your team.

Hybrid classes have healing and dps trees and their class can fulfill 2 roles in a group depending on their spec which is why there are more class/spec options for the 3rd hybrid slot in a group.


No offense but your analysis is extremely narrow minded. Many healers can play offensively with cc and utility. Ms classes bring utility through things like lock down, interrupts, snares, and cc of their own (blind, traps, aoe fear (has to be willed or tremored). Who are you to say a 3s team can't consist of 2 casters and a high-cc healing class, (druid-lock-mage) or a 3 dps team with 2 casters and a rogue/hunter. You can't expect everyone to basically play the same "balanced" set up.
  • 0
Posted Image
Spoiler

#42 Lysander

Lysander
  • Junkies
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • US-Tichondrius
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 2,907
  • Talents: Marksmanship

Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:51 PM

SO you are saying that Survival with the amount of thing they bring would be useless without MS? i can't agree.


I'm saying that nobody would spec 51 into Survival and nobody would spec 51 into Marksmanship, because both would be horrible builds. Hunter/Rogue/x doesn't work, and neither does Hunter/Warrior/x, so the Hunter is pretty much required to bring the MS debuff, and an MS debuff trumps anything that 51 Surv could offer.
  • 0

#43 Alef

Alef
  • Members
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • EU-Vol'jin
  • Embuscade / Hinterhalt
  • Posts: 1,580
  • Talents:

Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:53 PM

Knockback would never happen and depending on how it is done, can be worst than frost trap have ever been.
  • 0

Warlock (affliction) Revamp:
-Inability to multi-target dot


Levidian

#44 Alef

Alef
  • Members
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • EU-Vol'jin
  • Embuscade / Hinterhalt
  • Posts: 1,580
  • Talents:

Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:58 PM

I'm saying that nobody would spec 51 into Survival and nobody would spec 51 into Marksmanship, because both would be horrible builds. Hunter/Rogue/x doesn't work, and neither does Hunter/Warrior/x, so the Hunter is pretty much required to bring the MS debuff, and an MS debuff trumps anything that 51 Surv could offer.


Ok so the solution is to remove tnt stun, remove wyvern, remove viper sting and frost trap procs and add survival tools (last stand etc) , a slight increase in damage + an interupt and a root?

I'm fine with it since it follows my: CC or MS
  • 0

Warlock (affliction) Revamp:
-Inability to multi-target dot


Levidian

#45 Levidian

Levidian
  • Members
  • Orcclass_name
  • US-Executus
  • Stormstrike
  • Posts: 9,949
  • Talents:

Posted 20 February 2009 - 06:00 PM

No offense but your analysis is extremely narrow minded. Many healers can play offensively with cc and utility. Ms classes bring utility through things like lock down, interrupts, snares, and cc of their own (blind, traps, aoe fear (has to be willed or tremored). Who are you to say a 3s team can't consist of 2 casters and a high-cc healing class, (druid-lock-mage) or a 3 dps team with 2 casters and a rogue/hunter. You can't expect everyone to basically play the same "balanced" set up.


I never said those configurations can't compete but for balance reasons to keep classes on as near equal footing as possible there has to be roles that different classes and for the hybrids "specs" fill.

Hunter (primary DPS)
Rogue (Primary DPS
Warrior (Primary DPS)
Mage (Utility)
Warlock(Utility)
Death Knight (Utility)
Mages and warlocks have qualities such as spammable CC that make them strong contenders for that utility slot because they can't heal or apply a healing debuff.
Death Knights are the black sheep in that they're basically dps/tank hybrids like warriors but they don't have a healing debuff but instead bring strong damage and some other unique utility.
Druid (Utility/Healing)
Priest(Utility/Healing)
Shaman(Utility/Healing)
Paladin(Utility/Healing

The classes that are only utility are really good at that role since it's the only role they can fill. The classes that can fill 2 group slots are either a healing contender or a more damage less control based hybrid.

It's just how the classses are designed and spread out to give everyone a chance to be represented.
  • 0
Top 1000 user club: #562
Armchair Blogger - 04/20/2010
http://wowriot.gamer...Reality-Collide

#46 Levidian

Levidian
  • Members
  • Orcclass_name
  • US-Executus
  • Stormstrike
  • Posts: 9,949
  • Talents:

Posted 20 February 2009 - 06:01 PM

Ok so the solution is to remove tnt stun, remove wyvern, remove viper sting and frost trap procs and add survival tools (last stand etc) , a slight increase in damage + an interupt and a root?

I'm fine with it since it follows my: CC or MS


Yep and that's basically exactly what happens based off the changes in my OP.
  • 0
Top 1000 user club: #562
Armchair Blogger - 04/20/2010
http://wowriot.gamer...Reality-Collide

#47 Ragingsteer

Ragingsteer
  • Junkies
  • Taurenclass_name
  • US-Azgalor
  • Ruin
  • Posts: 391
  • Talents: Feral Combat

Posted 20 February 2009 - 06:03 PM

Because it's a role reserved for the primary DPS classes (warriors,rogues,hunters) which have no other options. That is our JOB if you will in the arena it creates a good synergy in group composition where you want a healer you want a healing de-buff and you want a utility class.


Except hunters bring far more CC than either of those two classes, and the primary spec for warriors doesn't even use MS. People don't make teams saying "boy I really want a caster hybrid in this setup", they make teams either based on playing with friends, or what they think will win. Right now, hunters have everything that a team could possibly want.
  • 0
wtb D3

#48 Seku

Seku
  • Members
  • Orcclass_name
  • EU-Al'Akir
  • Blackout
  • Posts: 60
  • Talents: Beast Mastery

Posted 20 February 2009 - 06:04 PM

Levidian's ideas make sense.

In addition to your mods :

Put Aimed at 21
Add a -1,-1.5,-2s CD on Aimed somewhere deep in MM.

And some kind of heavy melee or trap boost somewhere deep in SV, to enforce spec identity.
I may be out of touch, but here are some simple ideas:
Naive examples of new Trap talents:
1) When a target get out of freezing trap it is afflicted with Freezing Weakness - Freezing Weakness : all damage received are increased by 10% during 5s OR a -15% debuff on heals and damage you produce during 10s
2) Frost Trap : Every damage you or a memeber of your party receive while standing on your trap is reduced by 40+RAP*0.05
3) Snake Trap : When a snake dies, it create a *pit of poison* (think grobulus, but much much smaller, shorter, and with snake effect)
4) Immo Trap : Blocks haste effects like old-style blood strike
5) Explosive Trap : significally increase the lasting damage part

Naive example of Melee boost:
Melee frenzy :
- passive + 3/6/9 % Melee hit
- active(10s/3mnCD)
- reduces all incoming damage by 10,15,20%
- increases the hunters maximum hit points by 10%
- Increase melee haste by 30,35,40% for 10s
  • 0

#49 Gunnolf

Gunnolf
  • Junkies
  • Dwarfclass_name
  • US-Tichondrius
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 1,784
  • Talents: Shadow

Posted 20 February 2009 - 06:04 PM

You do realize that most of the time mages outdamage rogues in rmp right? Warlocks can outdamage everyone if the game goes on long enough. My point is it's dangerous to try to define or confine certain classes to different roles when in reality everything can change based on comps, strats, and the players themselves. Some people play rmp with damage spam and mana burns, some play just to set up an unhealable burst, some play to land fear-blind-sap-fear.
  • 0
Posted Image
Spoiler

#50 Alef

Alef
  • Members
  • Night Elfclass_name
  • EU-Vol'jin
  • Embuscade / Hinterhalt
  • Posts: 1,580
  • Talents:

Posted 20 February 2009 - 06:05 PM

Yeah but i don't like the idea because it may dumb down the hunter playstyle.

Well, Maybe we have to take this road to balance it out.
  • 0

Warlock (affliction) Revamp:
-Inability to multi-target dot


Levidian

#51 Ragingsteer

Ragingsteer
  • Junkies
  • Taurenclass_name
  • US-Azgalor
  • Ruin
  • Posts: 391
  • Talents: Feral Combat

Posted 20 February 2009 - 06:08 PM

We're not hybrids. We're pure physical dps just like rogues


Rogues don't have explosive shot. Yes they have poisons/bleeds, but the catch is that they have to actually be within 5 yards to use them.
  • 0
wtb D3

#52 gaspin

gaspin
  • Members
  • Trollclass_name
  • US-Nazjatar
  • Shadowburn
  • Posts: 6
  • Talents:

Posted 20 February 2009 - 06:08 PM

can anyone dig up hunter representation seasons 2-4? i know it'd be a hard task.

that being said if the #'s on hunters were underrepresented in those season, while being the most populated class.... what else can you go on for this comment?


"if you think hunters have been bad after they got MS and that shit in mid s2? YOU ARE HONESTLY TERRIBLE DONT SPEAK."
  • 0

#53 Lilyi

Lilyi
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Sargeras
  • Shadowburn
  • Posts: 445
  • Talents: Discipline 0/0/1/0/1/2
  • RBG: 1136

Posted 20 February 2009 - 06:10 PM

They should really just nerf all MS effects to 25-30%, nerf holy paladins a bit, don't buff healers, and buff the current MS classes a little if they need it (hunters wouldn't). Then MS becomes a perk, not a necessity.
  • 0

#54 Vlada

Vlada
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Sylvanas
  • Rampage / Saccage
  • Posts: 3,635
  • Talents: Holy 0/0/1/2/2/0
  • 2v2: 1985
  • 3v3: 2265
  • 5v5: 2416
  • RBG: 2252

Posted 20 February 2009 - 06:11 PM

hunters were last on representation in s1/s2, 2nd last in s3/s4(paladins took your spot there!)
  • 0

#55 Windwalk

Windwalk
  • Members
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Burning Blade
  • Vindication
  • Posts: 3,023
  • Talents:

Posted 20 February 2009 - 06:11 PM

and now paladins and hunters are ridiculously overpowered, so funny how these things work out =D
  • 0

#56 Vlada

Vlada
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Sylvanas
  • Rampage / Saccage
  • Posts: 3,635
  • Talents: Holy 0/0/1/2/2/0
  • 2v2: 1985
  • 3v3: 2265
  • 5v5: 2416
  • RBG: 2252

Posted 20 February 2009 - 06:12 PM

compensation dude, ledder just reverted
  • 0

#57 Levidian

Levidian
  • Members
  • Orcclass_name
  • US-Executus
  • Stormstrike
  • Posts: 9,949
  • Talents:

Posted 20 February 2009 - 06:13 PM

Except hunters bring far more CC than either of those two classes, and the primary spec for warriors doesn't even use MS. People don't make teams saying "boy I really want a caster hybrid in this setup", they make teams either based on playing with friends, or what they think will win. Right now, hunters have everything that a team could possibly want.


Did you read the post?

The changes are to make hunters MORE Like rogues and warriors so that we're not some abomination class stuck in the middle with a random concoction of qualities. We would be tuned to be more specifically tailored to fullfil that role with out the CC and mana drain benefits which should be reserved for utility/hybrid classes and specs.
  • 0
Top 1000 user club: #562
Armchair Blogger - 04/20/2010
http://wowriot.gamer...Reality-Collide

#58 Vlada

Vlada
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Sylvanas
  • Rampage / Saccage
  • Posts: 3,635
  • Talents: Holy 0/0/1/2/2/0
  • 2v2: 1985
  • 3v3: 2265
  • 5v5: 2416
  • RBG: 2252

Posted 20 February 2009 - 06:14 PM

MAKE EXPLOSIVE SHOT PHYSICAL DAMAGE
  • 0

#59 Ragingsteer

Ragingsteer
  • Junkies
  • Taurenclass_name
  • US-Azgalor
  • Ruin
  • Posts: 391
  • Talents: Feral Combat

Posted 20 February 2009 - 06:17 PM

can anyone dig up hunter representation seasons 2-4? i know it'd be a hard task.

that being said if the #'s on hunters were underrepresented in those season, while being the most populated class.... what else can you go on for this comment?


"if you think hunters have been bad after they got MS and that shit in mid s2? YOU ARE HONESTLY TERRIBLE DONT SPEAK."


The reason those statistics don't mean anything, is that the vast majority of hunters never understood their role in seasons 1-4. Most of them just wanted to mash buttons and dps. That's not what the class was about. It was a drain/CC class. The hunters that understood that, did well. The ones that didn't, failed. There were plenty of good hunters on top teams then.

I'm sure it wasn't terribly fun for many hunters, but many druids (such as myself) didn't find resto terribly fun either. What blizzard has done, is kept the drain viability that hunters had (against some teams), added to their CC, and made button mashing dps possible. In short, they wanted to make every hunter (even the terrible ones) happy.
  • 0
wtb D3

#60 Levidian

Levidian
  • Members
  • Orcclass_name
  • US-Executus
  • Stormstrike
  • Posts: 9,949
  • Talents:

Posted 20 February 2009 - 06:17 PM

Yeah but i don't like the idea because it may dumb down the hunter playstyle.

Well, Maybe we have to take this road to balance it out.


I don't know how much it would "dumb it down" past what it's at right now. The class should end up feeling like a ranged version of a rogue or warrior with many of the same qualities utilities snares/intterupts/healing debuff while being less strong at some things (a rogues lock down, or a warriors close quarters versatility) while having the weaknesses of a hunter such as LoS and melee ranges.
  • 0
Top 1000 user club: #562
Armchair Blogger - 04/20/2010
http://wowriot.gamer...Reality-Collide




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

<