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Hunters ARE BROKEN - A comprehensive look.


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#21 Levidian

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:25 PM

[EDIT] But anyway, in reference to why Hunters without MS is a bad idea: Hunters synergize horribly with Warriors and Rogues. Neither offers very much control in the face of the things that screw over Hunters most, namely caster burst and caster CC. They are easily kited and easily CC'd, and once kited they cannot help the Hunter, nor can the Hunter help himself (although this has changed since TBC to an extent due to Deter and Roar).

Warlocks and Mages, on the other hand, work a lot better with Warriors and Rogues. Both have spammable CCs, Counterspells, and various ways to either keep themselves alive when their Kick/Pummeler has been CC'd or stop incoming damage without blowing offensive cooldowns on defensive purposes.


Exactly that's why we should be changed to be more like warriors/rogues so we compete against them for group spots while maintaining our ability to fullfil the role as a heal de-buff class and be competitive in the primary/hybrid/healer group configurations.
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#22 Lysander

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:25 PM

levidian posting good thread? NOWAI

i dunno about that freezing shot, maybe put a CD on it or duration to 6 sec but instant


lolwut? are you suggesting to make essentially wyvern sting trainable (actually better than wyvern sting because it isn't wotfable/stoneformable/poison cleanse/tremor).
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#23 Levidian

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:27 PM

levidian posting good thread? NOWAI

i dunno about that freezing shot, maybe put a CD on it or duration to 6 sec but instant


It would have the same CD as freezing trap and share a cool down with freezing trap. Cast shot trap greys cast trap shot greys. It would basically be like a polmorph that you can't spam that doesn't heal the target.
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#24 Alef

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:28 PM

You say "look on a global view, not individual comparison", but then you directly look at 4 areas: instant CC, mortal strike, kiting, damage, and compare them to other classes. Would the picture look different if instead the 4 areas you looked at were: spammable CC, spell interrupt, spike damage, stuns?


Yeah you are right on this.

It's not a bad drain, actualy it is the best in my opinion.

Mana burns/drain can be interupted/los (dispeled for drains). a paladin dont have problems with burns if he pays attention to his positions. Mana drain is good against every classes even paladins, BUT it is gamebreaking for priests.

Really, changes in the OP asks for a complete revamp of the classe, whereas changing MS is as simple as it is. Would not make the class perfectly balanced, but would be better.
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#25 Tremos

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:29 PM

Put aim shot as a 31 marks point , remove tnt stun, trueshot aura baseline.

Hunters fixed.


That's not going to do anything but make stuff worse.

Aimed shot is not a problem, it's position in the MM tree is perfect because it becomes accessible to every spec.

Aimed shot is completely different compared to MS. Why? Because of the fact that a hunter and warrior are completely different, have different abilities and fill different roles. Just because MS is not an 11 point talent doesn't mean aimed shot shouldn't be.
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#26 Lysander

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:31 PM

Yeah you are right on this.

It's not a bad drain, actualy it is the best in my opinion.

Mana burns/drain can be interupted/los (dispeled for drains). a paladin dont have problems with burns if he pays attention to his positions. Mana drain is good against every classes even paladins, BUT it is gamebreaking for priests.

Really, changes in the OP asks for a complete revamp of the classe, whereas changing MS is as simple as it is. Would not make the class perfectly balanced, but would be better.


Simply swapping MS down would be a horrible solution because it would make every 51 point talent completely useless. And not useless in the way Beacon is useless ("useless" because DP is so good), but useless as in unusable.
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#27 Ragingsteer

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:33 PM

Especially considering a billion other class/specs fight for that coveted hybrid slot.


I can use that same argument to say that Feral druids need a MS. Would that make them overpowered when playing with a healer? Yes. Does hunters having an MS when playing with a healer make them overpowered? Yes. Using the "our class would be forced to play with a MS" argument in nonsense. It doesn't work for other classes, it shouldn't work for you.
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#28 dif66

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:34 PM

Why donĀ“t they give all dmg classes ms then since its apparently needed to be decent in arena?
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#29 Levidian

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:35 PM

That's not going to do anything but make stuff worse.

Aimed shot is not a problem, it's position in the MM tree is perfect because it becomes accessible to every spec.

Aimed shot is completely different compared to MS. Why? Because of the fact that a hunter and warrior are completely different, have different abilities and fill different roles. Just because MS is not an 11 point talent doesn't mean aimed shot shouldn't be.


Right on and that's why the things that push this aimed shot/hunter spec synergy over the top are the things that need addressed (see wyvern sting, and viper sting). That is the main problem.

Once those are taken care of you can continue to address the problems which debilitate the MM tree which are addressed in the post.

The changes should allow the trees to fullfil their roles of dealing damage, applying a healing debuff, and having some pressure through interruption and adding some limited crowd control just like warriors and rogues.
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#30 Gunnolf

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:36 PM

Levi, i posted this on GR too, idk if its in this one as well, but the knockdown instead of entrapment would interrupt casts. That just changes it from completely fucking melee to completely fucking casters. I think it should simply be changed to something like a 3 second root (one time, guaranteed) upon being afflicted by frost trap. Otherwise i like some of your ideas. One thing to note is that your net ability is pretty similar to the tailoring ______ nets.
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#31 Alef

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:38 PM

That's not going to do anything but make stuff worse.

Aimed shot is not a problem, it's position in the MM tree is perfect because it becomes accessible to every spec.

Aimed shot is completely different compared to MS. Why? Because of the fact that a hunter and warrior are completely different, have different abilities and fill different roles. Just because MS is not an 11 point talent doesn't mean aimed shot shouldn't be.


I know they are different. But really, what do warrior or rogue offer compared to hunters?

Levidian asks to compete with warriors/rogues and being brute force damage MS but renged.

My opinion is that no, it should be a heavy CC template and should trade CC for MS.
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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:40 PM

It's not a bad drain, actualy it is the best in my opinion.

Mana burns/drain can be interupted/los (dispeled for drains). a paladin dont have problems with burns if he pays attention to his positions. Mana drain is good against every classes even paladins, BUT it is gamebreaking for priests.

Everyone knows that hunter drain rapes priests. It has also been stated about 10000 times in one week now.

It's really strong against priests, yes.
Against paladins, shamans and druids it's only effective if they're either total scrubnubs or you have a good teammate pressuring the enemy healer with fears/hex or something so that he can't cleanse/abolish/totem cleanse it within 1 sec.
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#33 Alef

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:40 PM

Simply swapping MS down would be a horrible solution because it would make every 51 point talent completely useless. And not useless in the way Beacon is useless ("useless" because DP is so good), but useless as in unusable.


SO you are saying that Survival with the amount of thing they bring would be useless without MS? i can't agree.
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#34 Alef

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:42 PM

Everyone knows that hunter drain rapes priests. It has also been stated about 10000 times in one week now.

It's really strong against priests, yes.
Against paladins, shamans and druids it's only effective if they're either total scrubnubs or you have a good teammate pressuring the enemy healer with fears/hex or something so that he can't cleanse/abolish/totem cleanse it within 1 sec.


Yeah like you can counter eazily any other form of mana burn/drain ? It should be counterable.
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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:42 PM

all I want is wyvern sting to have a cast time so Priests can SW: D out of it =\
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#36 gaspin

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:42 PM

are hunters great atm... yes. OP? im in between.

have hunters been underpowered in seasons 1-4, and until they made SV viable... yes.

there's always a class that shines above the rest. How long did warlocks, druids, rogues, and warriors find their OP nitch in TBC?

When u look @ actual representation of top teams hunters are @ the top. However, DK's, rogues, and pallies are finding their way as well. (and lets not forget hunters are the 2nd most populated class meaning more should find their way to top tiers)

There's always been classes that shine above others. I'm not saying the class doesnt need looked @ or reworked. However, others have enjoyed this luxury for much longer.
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#37 Levidian

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:42 PM

I can use that same argument to say that Feral druids need a MS. Would that make them overpowered when playing with a healer? Yes. Does hunters having an MS when playing with a healer make them overpowered? Yes. Using the "our class would be forced to play with a MS" argument in nonsense. It doesn't work for other classes, it shouldn't work for you.


Because it's a role reserved for the primary DPS classes (warriors,rogues,hunters) which have no other options. That is our JOB if you will in the arena it creates a good synergy in group composition where you want a healer you want a healing de-buff and you want a utility class.

Grab a healer
Priest
Druid
Shaman
Paladin

Grab a healing debuff
Hunter
Rogue
Warrior

Grab a caster/utility hybrid
Mage
Warlock
Feral
Shadow
Balance
Enh
Elemental
Ret
etc

This is what helps keep representation among the classses balanced.

Hunters Rogues and warriors should only be able to fill the healing debuff role, You shouldn't be able to grab one of us to be your utility.

Healers fullfil the healing role. You don't grab a healer to CC for your team.

Hybrid classes have healing and dps trees and their class can fulfill 2 roles in a group depending on their spec which is why there are more class/spec options for the 3rd hybrid slot in a group.
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#38 Levidian

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:45 PM

Levi, i posted this on GR too, idk if its in this one as well, but the knockdown instead of entrapment would interrupt casts. That just changes it from completely fucking melee to completely fucking casters. I think it should simply be changed to something like a 3 second root (one time, guaranteed) upon being afflicted by frost trap. Otherwise i like some of your ideas. One thing to note is that your net ability is pretty similar to the tailoring ______ nets.


That one time root would arguably be more powerful in some situations. I guess the entrapment talent could just flat out be removed and the snare % on frost trap could be upped a hair.
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#39 Bailou

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:46 PM

if you think hunters have been bad after they got MS and that shit in mid s2? YOU ARE HONESTLY TERRIBLE DONT SPEAK.
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#40 Levidian

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:48 PM

I know they are different. But really, what do warrior or rogue offer compared to hunters?

Levidian asks to compete with warriors/rogues and being brute force damage MS but renged.

My opinion is that no, it should be a heavy CC template and should trade CC for MS.


We're not hybrids. We're pure physical dps just like rogues, and as far as pvp is concerned warriors you're 2/3rds pure which is the only class with that configuration of talent trees.

The best thing blizzard did in an effort to keep things balanced was give hunters a reliable healing debuff that lets 3 classes fight for that healing debuff slot which reduces the bottle neck that was created when it was 4 healers fighting for a spot, a ton of hybrids+ hunters fighting, and only 2 healing debuff classes. Rogues and warriors had a monopoly on the heal debuff situation and you're still the best off as far as group slots are concerned with haveing 3 classes compepete, healers have to fight 3 other healers for slots, and the players that chose hybrids have to fight more than that, and they also have to fight the big 2 mages and warlocks.
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