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Hunters ARE BROKEN - A comprehensive look.


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#1 Levidian

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 04:21 PM

Hunters are BROKEN as much as I wanted to believe the new wotlk talent trees were balanced they really aren't and it's taken some time for me to actually fully comprehend the extent of this imbalance. In the same manor that warlocks are an interesting and extremely difficult class to balance right due to some of their mechanics hunters are in the same boat. Warlocks and Hunters will continuously shift in balanced from OP to UP unless class mechanics at the roots are addressed. This blog focuses on the hunter side of those imbalances and my previous blog on warlocks tried to help highly imbalances facing that class.

The continuing uproar about SV has got me thinking and recently I've been reevaluating the direction this class is going and how it is continuing to be balanced around extremely imbalanced abilities. How can a class be balanced when some of its abilities are extremely powerful and extremely weak at the same time? I have no idea. I'm going to try to talk about some aspects of the class that are going to continue to leave us in an imbalanced state and also aspects of the class that are pushing us away from our role as a pure DPS MS class.

In a previous blog I discussed the Viper Sting ability and how it's imbalances are playing into hunters continuing to be a broken arena class in this game. For anyone interested in the read it can be found here:
http://wowriot.gamer...e-at-its-finest

I'm going to reference that imbalance and other problems with hunters including nerfing/fixing wyvern sting in an effort to get this class back on track and let it continue to evolve more closely to match its intended role in the arena.

Right now hunters are kind of an abomination of abilities that leave us w/o a defined role while also creating imbalances to the point where we can completely utterly counter the fuck out of some teams while being equally decimated by others.

SV is currently the most effective arena build and the aspects of the class that are the primary sources of it's strength are:

Aoe snare
Instant poison CC
MS effect
Competitive largely armor ignoring damage

Those don't really sound like the qualities of the traditional healing de-buff classes and they aren't .

Why were hunters put into the role of a physical healing de-buff class but then not fully developed into that role during the wotlk beta? I don't know. Did blizzard not want to change the class too much? I for one don't want to be stuck in the continuing up and down cycle the hunter class rides due to it's wacky undefined jack of some trades master of this and that trade compilation of wildly imbalanced abilities.

I'm going to try to break down this hunter transformation in phases in this blog to hopefully better illustrate how certain abilities need removed and certain abilities need added to mold the hunter class into it's role as a heal de-buff physical dps class.

Phase 1 - The culling of imbalanced abilities
Remove Viper sting and Wyvern Sting from the game


The same reasons why viper sting is and will always be broken and imbalanced are shared by wyvern sting and you can find those reasons in the aforementioned viper sting blog.

In short these abilities are strong and are poisons that combination will continue to make them insanely powerful vs some and extremely weak vs others. How can you have a balanced DPS class when they ride on imbalanced abilities?

The phase 1 changes would obviously require some talent/ability retooling and that is ok because it frees up spots for the next phases of changes to move in.

Phase 2 - Adding balanced abilities
Make silence shot and intimidation base line abilities
... cast time on freezing arrow(shot)

How can you have a primary dps class with out a primary on target cast interruption? For those who don't know the detail that’s a 20 second CD 3 second silence and a 1 minute 3 second pet reliant stun.(This might need to come down to 30/45seconds) Unlike viper sting and wyvern sting silence shot and intimidation have the exact same effect on everyone they're used against there is no imbalance here.

Freezing arrow changed to freezing shot (shares CD with ONLY Freezing Trap) 1.5 sec cast freezes the target in a block of ice. This would make it so the hunter now has no instant ranged CC but still has a ranged but it requires a cast time. It would be physical cast (which means no kick/pummel) but would be considered a spell meaning it could be grounded, reflected, immuned (clos/spell shield) etc.

Phase 3 - F poisons seriously
Poisons out & bleeds in


Rogues and warriors both have bleeds as part of their arsenal and bleeds are the DOT effect hunters should also have. The only class in the game that has ever utilized poisons to a fairly balanced effect have them on a high proc rate on their weapons that don't (in most cases) require GCD use to apply. (Hint: Rogues).

I think blizzard started to realize this when they talked about some of the MM changes to add bleeds to our shots. They just didn't really roll that idea in with the overhaul the class actually needs. Hunters are kind of like a quilt with different color patches that are sewn in and until we get those colored lined up the quilt will be ugly.

-Serpent Sting is now a bleed effect
-Scorpid Sting is now a bleed(see physical) effect
-Improved Stings is now improved bleeds
-Chimera shot adapted to have heightened effects on targets depending on the hunter bleed applied
-Noxious Stings changed to improved net throw (details in the next phase)

Phase 4 - Filling in the holes
BM 21, MM 41, SV 31 pt talent locations


In this phase we will attempt to fill in holes left by the removal of some abilities and the change of other abilities to base while keeping the new abilities in line with the trees they exist in.

BM 21 - Terrifying Roar(activated): Your pet roars at it's target inducing a fear lasting for 6 seconds 1minute CD this is a physical fear just like a warriors intimidating shout, shares DR with other player fears same damage breaking rules as warlock fear.

MM 41 - Aim at your Mark(passive) : This ability applies and refreshes your hunters mark ability anytime your target is afflicted with the aimed shot de-buff. This change would allow marked for death to actually be a usable PvP talent w/o forcing the hunter to spam burn globals on casting hunter's mark. Think of this the same as a DKs strike applying a poison.

SV 31 - Net Throw(active) : Hunters have wanted a net ability for A LONG time and this is the opportunity to add one. 25 yard range 6 second physical root instant cast w/travel time 1 minute CD deals no damage. Noxious stings would be changed to improved net throw like mentioned earlier reduces the cast speed of anyone afflicted by your net throw ability by 10/20/30%.

Phase 5 - Pets
How sturdy should our companions be?


With the change to warlock pet health numbers I really don't think it's unrealistic for our pets to at least share our health totals (when speced into the stamina talents) Pets have been given utility that we need to operate at full capacity and a hunter w/o a pet is crippled as much if not more than a warlock w/o a pet. Pet health levels should be tuned so that ferocity pets under us by 2-3k cunning pets near identical to our health and tenacity pets 2-3k above AFTER they train their stamina talents.

Revive Pet - You have to admit that 10 second pet summons are out dated. Revive pet should be a 4 second cast base and continue to be interrupted the same as any spell cast can be interrupted.

Improved Revive pet - Reduces the cast time of your revive pet by .5/1.0 and the mana cost reductions stay the same.

Phase 6 - Loose ends
Roots growing out of ice WTF?


I'll try to address some other things that are out of whack in this section starting with talents/abilities of the BM variety and moving on to MM and SV as you read further.

BM Talents
Pathfinding - Added bonus of increases the hunters base speed by the same amount as meta/boot enchant. Changed to 1 talent point and moved to tier 2. Essentially a lets you use a new meta/boot enchant for a talent point investment while making the transition out of tier 2 easier ( there is usually a "dummy" talent point we have to spend to advance to our 11 point BM talent. To free up the slot in tier 2 thick hide is moved to tier 1.

Spirit Bond - 1/2% health regen every 5 seconds instead of 10

Invigoration - costs 1 talent point instead of 2

MM Talents
Efficiency - Changed from 5 to 3 talent points at 3/6/9% mana reduction

Piercing Shots - Changed to "Gives your steady shot and aimed shot abilities a 5/10/15% chance to ignore all armor." 3/6/9% might be more inline something that would need tested.

Rapid Recuperation - Same effect except the rapid recuperation effect procs on Kill shot and Chimera shot critical strikes instead of on killing blows. This gives the later part of this talent uses in raids and PvP and it will help with MMs extreme mana inefficiency.

Chimera Shot - Remove the Viper sting tool tip as viper sting is no longer a hunter ability. Serpent sting does the same damage and modifiers chimera shot in the same way. Scorpid+Chimera stays the same except the sting is now a bleed.

SV Talents
Savage Strikes - Also increases MELEE auto attack crit chance

Entrapment - No longer has a chance to root the target for 4 seconds instead there is the same chance for a 1.0 second knock down.

TNT - Stun chance removed replaced with daze chance

Counter Attack - Works on dodges and parries but now has a 30/45 second cool down instead of a 5 second.

Trap Mastery - Changed to survival of the fittest(activated) Reduces all incoming damage by 30% for 10 seconds and increases the hunters maximum hit points by 20%. This will reduce those situations where a hunter has multiple frost traps down due to the duration increase the old talent had while providing SV with an actual 41pt talent which blizzard said they were going to add (a long time ago).

Sniper Training - Changed to "Keen Eye" strength of the talent reduced but removes the ranged stipulation. Increased the damage done by your explosive/aimed/steady by 1/2/3% DOWN from 2/4/6% and kill shot crit chance by 3/6/9% DOWN from 5/10/15% but reduces the minimum range by 1 yard per point. Currently kill shot has an 8 yard minimum (basically the old dead zone) and this talent could take it down to 7/6/5yard minimum putting it at the same place is our other ranged shots with a 3point talent investment.
Traps
Place the fire type (immolation, explosive, snake) on a separate cool down from the frost traps (frost, freezing)

Goals Realized
The changes illustrated in this blog would accomplish these goals:

  • Make the hunter play and act move like a true physical DPS class.

  • Remove Imbalanced poison abilities such as Wyvern Sting and Viper Sting

  • Fix the MM tree's reliance on easily removed abilities like serpent sting and hunters mark

  • Fix the MM tree's extreme mana efficiency problems

  • Address some outstanding balance/effect/talent issues

  • Remove imbalanced instant ranged CC

  • Increase a hunters on target lock down ability since we no longer have powerful instant ranged CC

  • Address pet hit point/revive issues
[FONT="]I hope you enjoyed the read and +1 if you found the blog thought provoking, enjoyable, or you agree with the goals behind it. Fixing the abomination that is the hunter class would one of the best things blizzard could do to continue to push closer toward balance. A vast majority of these changes would have little to no effect on hunter PvE Raid damage so persons with those concerns (including myself) can rest easy.[/FONT]
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#2 Levidian

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 04:51 PM

Mag brought up a good point on another forum that the freezing shot cast should be able to be kicked/pummeled etc. This would keep the threat of that CC landing real but also make it as difficult as a poly or fear to get off w/o the ability to spam it on someone.
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#3 Tya

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 04:52 PM

The whole "Lock vs hunter" argument is old. You're beating a dead horse. I know it's irritating when people say "They're your counter", but it's true. Furthermore you know full well warlocks have issues. Making them less effective against hunters without compensation in other areas will kill a class that, whether you like it or not, is by far the least represented class in every bracket post 2k.

I think people would be more open to your ideas, if your blogs weren't centric on lock vs hunter fights, and more fixing warlock problems as a whole (there are plenty), and then deciding how to nerf us vs the classes we hard counter.

I'll give you a hint. Start with fear.
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#4 Levidian

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 04:56 PM

The post addresses way more things than hunter v warlock. Right now hunters are a weird concoction of thrown together abilities w/o being designed around a goal. The second we got a reliable healing de-buff we should have been tuned to be more like rogues and warriors. Damage, interruption, with limited absolute CC.
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#5 Alef

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 04:57 PM

Put aim shot as a 31 marks point , remove tnt stun, trueshot aura baseline.

Hunters fixed.
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Levidian

#6 Levidian

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:01 PM

Put aim shot as a 31 marks point , remove tnt stun, trueshot aura baseline.

Hunters fixed.


That would do nothing except force hunters to play MM or play with rogues/warriors if they spec survival.

SV + TSA would = harder hitting explosive shots than there are now.

You don't address our broken poison abilities meaning we would still power fuck priests.

The situation is far from a 1 2 3 wham bam fixed situation. It requires a comprehensive approach to eliminating imbalances and retooling talent trees.
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#7 Lysander

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:02 PM

Put aim shot as a 31 marks point , remove tnt stun, trueshot aura baseline.

Hunters fixed.


This, in addition to the aforementioned changes, would be a good idea. The changes above pretty much necessitate a Survival tree that does not have Mortal Strike.

These changes alone, however, would be rather shortsighted, as Marks would still be a useless spec and Survival would as well. Every Hunter would be completely split hybrid spec, and no 51 point talent would be worth taking.
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#8 Ragingsteer

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:03 PM

A nerf to icetrap would seriously make my day. I agree that some hunter abilities are useless against some classes, the problem is that they have so many abilities, they can just use others to overcome it. There is literally no situation that a hunter cannot counter, or at least hold its own in. The class needs to go back to the role it had in vanilla, ranged physical dps, with some CC.
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#9 Alef

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:03 PM

Ranged rogue warrior should be marks = limited cc.
Ranged cc should be survival: traps/wyverns
Cooldown based: Beast

This is MS being a 11 talent points the problem, alowing you to get everything without giving up anything. Giving aim shot only to Marks hunters should fix that imo.
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#10 Elesedil

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:04 PM

Great post m8 and quite good insight.

i really hope that this want be filed with palas and rogue trollers as usual.
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#11 Levidian

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:08 PM

Ranged rogue warrior should be marks = limited cc.

If that was true you would have suggested a 10 second duration no cool down concussive shot and a 6 second spell interrupt ability.

Ranged cc should be survival: traps/wyverns

So a SV hunter just partners with a rogue or warrior and all of the imbalances of wyvern sting and viper sting remain.

Cooldown based: Beast

So basically like an arcane mage. We know how that turned out.

This is MS being a 11 talent points the problem, alowing you to get everything without giving up anything. Giving aim shot only to Marks hunters should fix that imo.


Removing a healing debuff from BM and Survival would just be a change it wouldn't be a fix. It would just change who we partner with and it still doesn't address the viper sting problem.. For BM and SV to work w/o a healing debuff their damage would have to go up into mage territory.
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#12 Alef

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:11 PM

I dont see the problem with Survival not having MS at all , with the current spec.

Survival have the same damage as anyother class (paladin, dk,) , Have an enourmous CC tools and the best manadrain and high defenses. MS should be alowed to classes with litle of eth above. Rogues are squishie limited cc and comparable damage. Warriors same.

ALso playing with a MS class is not a problem, it would make rogues/warrior more viable in different comps.

ATM it' s more everyone is forced to play with a hunter (exagerating of course) because the amount of things they bring.
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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:11 PM

Well, good job writing that much about it.
Although I'd appreciate to see such a big revamp to the hunter class. but I don't think this is going to happen (sadly).

Blizzard can't afford listening to one player and change the game to everything he suggested, lots of crying etc
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#14 Lysander

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:15 PM

ATM it' s more everyone is forced to play with a hunter (exagerating of course) because the amount of things they bring.


Before Rogue Mutilate nerf, Rogue/healer/x was a popular comp with practically any healer and any x. Rogue Mutilate nerf was very hard.. too hard, GC probably got 100-0'd on his Warlock or something ;-(. Either way, once Rogues learn how to play Shadow Dance they will be a usable MS again.

Warriors don't really have "MS" anymore, because Arms is such a trash spec. Fury's MS is very unreliable, so Warriors have basically turned into a class that just deals damage and sometimes has MS up. If Arms is fixed, they will be a usable MS again.

So if someone wants to have an MS effect on their team, its not like they have a huge amount of options.


[EDIT] But anyway, in reference to why Hunters without MS is a bad idea: Hunters synergize horribly with Warriors and Rogues. Neither offers very much control in the face of the things that screw over Hunters most, namely caster burst and caster CC. They are easily kited and easily CC'd, and once kited they cannot help the Hunter, nor can the Hunter help himself (although this has changed since TBC to an extent due to Deter and Roar).

Warlocks and Mages, on the other hand, work a lot better with Warriors and Rogues. Both have spammable CCs, Counterspells, and various ways to either keep themselves alive when their Kick/Pummeler has been CC'd or stop incoming damage without blowing offensive cooldowns on defensive purposes.
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#15 abrown21

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:15 PM

Some good ideas in this. Probably won't see anything done like this though in the actually game.

I still find it amazing that people will still come and flame this type of post. It is well written there are some great ideas but just because of the person writing it they think it is the cool thing to do.

Would like to see someone else come up with ideas like this so they can be called an idiot or moron.

Your warlock posts were also well thought out too. And we are about to see the time of the warlock. It's coming. Fought a warlock druid last night in arena and the damage they can put out on multiple targets is insane. Just wait til resil cap is actually reachable and they then buff warlocks.
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#16 Alef

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:18 PM

You should not compare everyclass abilities /advantage but more on a global view.

Fact: Survival has the best CCs, the best drain, the best MS effect , the best *kiting tools* and one of the highest damage in the game.

MS is the most imabalanced when it's coupled with the others.
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Levidian

#17 Levidian

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:20 PM

I dont see the problem with Survival not having MS at all , with the current spec.

Survival have the same damage as anyother class (paladin, dk,) , Have an enourmous CC tools and the best manadrain and high defenses. MS should be alowed to classes with litle of eth above. Rogues are squishie limited cc and comparable damage. Warriors same.

Viper sting is the best and worst mana drain at the same time. This is the kind of imbalances I'm talking about and that's why changes need to be made. Wyvern Sting is the same situation nearly 100% useless against shaman(especially with totem stomp changes) but highly effective against priests and paladins. Viper sting rapes priests but does next to nothing against the other healers.

That is why those abilities need removed. You can tune other things like you suggested to try to cover balance other aspects of the class up and down. If hunters do to much damage during a CC lower it, but now what if that CC does nothing against a certain healer? they're stuck with to low of damage. You see what I'm getting at?

ALso playing with a MS class is not a problem, it would make rogues/warrior more viable in different comps.

You're right it would you would see a ton of hunters clammering around for rogue/warrior partners. However it's clear that blizzard wants hunters to have a healing debuff now so we need to be able to fill that role w/o being imbalanced. 4 healers fight for healing slots. It isn't out of line for 3 classes to fight for the "healing debuff" role. Especially considering a billion other class/specs fight for that coveted hybrid slot.

ATM it' s more everyone is forced to play with a hunter (exagerating of course) because the amount of things they bring.


Mainly the "imbalanced" things they bring. The goal of the review is to let hunters fight for spots in groups with rogues/warriors isntead of being THE best choice in a majority of compositions and 2 remove the imbalanced abilities that push us over the top against some teams while leaving us vulnerable against others.
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#18 Alef

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:21 PM

Before Rogue Mutilate nerf, Rogue/healer/x was a popular comp with practically any healer and any x. Rogue Mutilate nerf was very hard.. too hard, GC probably got 100-0'd on his Warlock or something ;-(. Either way, once Rogues learn how to play Shadow Dance they will be a usable MS again.

Warriors don't really have "MS" anymore, because Arms is such a trash spec. Fury's MS is very unreliable, so Warriors have basically turned into a class that just deals damage and sometimes has MS up. If Arms is fixed, they will be a usable MS again.

So if someone wants to have an MS effect on their team, its not like they have a huge amount of options.


[EDIT] But anyway, in reference to why Hunters without MS is a bad idea: Hunters synergize horribly with Warriors and Rogues. Neither offers very much control in the face of the things that screw over Hunters most, namely caster burst and caster CC. They are easily kited and easily CC'd, and once kited they cannot help the Hunter, nor can the Hunter help himself (although this has changed since TBC to an extent due to Deter and Roar).

Warlocks and Mages, on the other hand, work a lot better with Warriors and Rogues. Both have spammable CCs, Counterspells, and various ways to either keep themselves alive when their Kick/Pummeler has been CC'd or stop incoming damage without blowing offensive cooldowns on defensive purposes.


Rogues are taken in rmps mostly. TBH, i would see a lot of hunters dominating , if 99 % of them were not awful. On my server there is not a single hunter that knows how to play. On one of the best server in EU, there was like 3 or 4 good hunters.
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Levidian

#19 Lysander

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:23 PM

You should not compare everyclass abilities /advantage but more on a global view.

Fact: Survival has the best CCs, the best drain, the best MS effect , the best *kiting tools* and one of the highest damage in the game.

MS is the most imabalanced when it's coupled with the others.


It actually has a pretty bad drain, lol. Dispellable by 3/4 healers, no dispel resistance, Scorpid Poison was gutted a long time ago to provide no junk debuffing. Drain/Burn are much better.

You say "look on a global view, not individual comparison", but then you directly look at 4 areas: instant CC, mortal strike, kiting, damage, and compare them to other classes. Would the picture look different if instead the 4 areas you looked at were: spammable CC, spell interrupt, spike damage, stuns?
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#20 Vlada

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Posted 20 February 2009 - 05:24 PM

levidian posting good thread? NOWAI

i dunno about that freezing shot, maybe put a CD on it or duration to 6 sec but instant
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