Warrior Feedback Thread
Posted 14 December 2007 - 05:15 PM
Posted 15 December 2007 - 06:44 PM
Content I enjoy: High end arenas. Season 2 my 5v5 team was top 5 ratings wise in the US on two seperate teams.
Areas of Improvement:
1) Pigeonholing: warriors are basically forced to spec arms for pvp. The other specs are simply a joke. While I don't have a problem with arms being the best I don't like that fury and prot cannot push you into any serious pvp success. I would suggest adding a mortal strike effect to each 31 point talent.
2) Survivability: warriors have very few tools in pvp to increase their survivability. We do not have any large cooldowns which increase survivability in arenas. I would suggest adding a survivability change to endless rage, espeically against spell damage. Adding a casting speed reduction to thunderclap would be nice as well. The severity of the damage penalty on berserker stance has already been mentioned several times over.
3) Rage Generation: I still feel like rage generation is a non-rewarding mechanic. I think it would be more rewardin if there were more creative ways to gain rage. I also feel like damage done to a warlocks pet through soul link should grant rage as well.
Abilities and Talents that lack:
1.Rend and Improved Rend-simply bad, terrible damage. So many ways to unstealth a rogue and does not scale well at all.
2. Improved charge-increasing the range as well as rage gain would be a nice change. When I compare this ability to improved bloodrage it's quite apparent it is severely lacking.
3. Endless Rage-there's a reason so few warriors spec this, it sucks.
4. Bloodthirst and rampage-leaves so much to be desired in pvp. If bloodthirst had a mortal strike component and rampage a damage reduction component, fury might be competitive in arenas.
5. Improved mortal strike-doesn't compete with counterparts. If this ability also increased the duration of mortal strike by 1-5 seconds that would add an interesting component. The main attraction in this talent is that you can mortal strike multiple targets. A Duration increase component would add to that attraction.
Posted 15 December 2007 - 07:46 PM
Pummel off GC.
A few talent fixes would be nice(Imp rend), but most classes have some shitty ones.
A talent first tier prot that reduced cooldown or increased charges on intervene would be cool. Or the 4 piece affecting its cooldown as well.
Posted 16 December 2007 - 07:46 AM
Other things I think have always been an issue are:
-Rage generation with shields (PW:S) I think we should get atleast partial rage. Getting caught in a poly with no rage and having no targets other than shielded targets to hit is terrible if blood rage is down.
-Lack of defense against spells outside of spell reflect. Spell reflect is great in duels and a may or may not save you in a burst in arena, but we have no real long (or even short, only 1 reflect sucks) term defense against spells. DoT spammers or water elemental pets eat through spell reflect, and we are left with only D stance, and that is still no way to avoid the damage. Casters have both melee and caster defense mechanisms (heals/armor, ice barrier/spell wards, soul link, shape shift/HoTs, pets/traps, evasion/clos, etc, PW:S/heals)
-Utter reliance on a healer. Warriors are completely balanced around having a healer, we have no viable way around it.
-Lack of any real reliable disable/cc. We have intercept, which is also required for our mobility, and a fear. However deep wounds (required) pretty much owns our own fear, and intercept is more often than not used for mobility rather than disabling.
-Over simplistic class. There is not much that defines a good warrior from a great warrior or even that of a sub par warrior. MS, WW, Hamstring, HS.. wow much skill involved! What separates the good from the bad is more on overall knowledge, thats common for every class (Situational awareness, full knowledge of what your opponent can do and what you can do to them, simple forms of kiting, target swapping, knowing your role). The only things I think that is close to or is only a warrior based skill is: Swing timer kiting, tab fearing to make your target actually feared rather than stand there "feared", spell reflecting while keeping a strong offensive or bandage. Those are all things that take a little bit of practice. We don't get to do things to show skill so much as other classes. Rogues pretty much originated 5-8 kiting, vanishing spells out of no where, re-stealth abuse with pillars and such. Mages have kiting down to an art, as do hunters and amazing balances between cc/kiting with dps. Pretty much every class has its own special things that you can just tell if someone is good or not by if they are able to do that thing or not. There are no more interesting warrior PvP videos these days, because the skill cap is so much lower. The most interesting one of late is Dahis' video and that was only thing I liked was his use of engineering and the duel against that mage. Everything good warriors do, every other good player is able to do, but good warriors cant do everything other good classes can do.
What I'd change :
Change spell reflect to reflect for a 2-3 sec duration, and reflect all spells during that duration, or have it reflect one spell, and give us say 50% or something spell damage reduction for the duration. Or you can just make it work with a 2h which would be pretty cool.
Rage mechanic needs to work with shields and not gimp our rage generation.
Have our 4 piece bonus apply to charge and intervene as well (same with improved intercept [rename it])
Change imp charge name/effect to add range to all 3 of the spells. Not getting a charge off because by the time ice lance takes to fly from max range to hit you, you are at the bare limit of your charge range; more range fixes that.
GCD taken off pummel
Int shout doesn't break on damage, just feared in place. (Deep wounds makes it very hard to use int shout well)
41 Point talents need to be viable as a whole. 41 arms is good for 5s where you don't get disarmed, but it blows for 2s and 3s, 41 fury is.. well fury is lolpve and same with prot. (P.S. I was fury the other day, 2400 AP 34% crit with a 2h and was unable to kill a s1 warlock + blues through a s2 pally healing without using BoP.. wtf? MS = crutch)
*Add more depth to warriors!*
Posted 16 December 2007 - 12:00 PM
Pummel off GCD and remove his damage component(like we care about it ^^) as any spell that does damage has to be on GCD.
Idea: A shout that increase all magical resistances by 70 ans stacks with shaman, pally, priest buffs.
Posted 16 December 2007 - 12:14 PM
Pummel off GCD would be cool, like Warlocks and Mages have. Though I don't find it a huge problem, sometimes I just auto attack if I know he's going to fear/cyclone/sheep soonish.
I agree there's a big lack of defense in general for warriors. Sadly we're a sitting duck without a healer at least. Also if we're under focusfire it tends to be really hard to survive if the others know what they're doing. Usually you're stunned to oblivion while trying to spell reflect / intervene a healer around a corner.
Rage starvation is a huge issue usually, in 2v2 and 3v3 at least where I tend to not have heroism or windfury. I only just have rage for MS, sometimes I don't even have the rage due to CC and shields flying around in the arenas.
I don't think our shout shouldn't break on damage, it's pretty easy to switch target and fire off the shout quickly then return to your previous target.
Over all, I think our two biggest issues are: Rage starvation when not having Shaman support and defense against casters in general under focus fire.
Posted 16 December 2007 - 02:56 PM
35/23/3 pvp spec Arms/Fury/Prot for Tm
1. High End Arena Group PvP
2. Solo PvP/Dueling
1. Complete reliance on healers. No survivability outside of support, no cooldowns apart from last stand which is a talent to assist in survivability (problem when coming to xdps1-0healer teams).
2. Rage starvation. I know speccing into ER is an incentive for this, but the other talents simply outweigh it way too much. Perhaps revert rage generation as if we had ER and replace the talent with something. A survivability talent would be huge, something along the lines of last stand perhaps.
3. Pummel off GCD, thanks. I live in Australia, and saving GCD's sucks compared to having good ping. I was in the US briefly and playing with perfect ping and not saving your GCD's? My god, I was in Heaven.
1. Improved Rend + Rend. Complete waste of a talent and pretty much move. Remove them or make them viable/interesting to use. A good change would be leaving Rend the way it is and making Improved Rend have x% chance to auto apply Rend on attack/critical whatever.
2. Tactical Mastery/Parry. Move it back to Arms please, and move parry to Protection. Parry has no place in arms, and TM has no place in prot. This may also open up some opportunities for 41/20. It really makes no sense. If TM is really supposed to be for hybrids tanking viability, then why is it in a tree designed purely for PvE tanking purposes? It seems the only reason it's here is to prevent point spending in other talents. Move it. If the TM change along with rend change comes in, I would be very happy alone.
3. Endless Rage. Waste of a talent compared to other possible talents. Perhaps make it more attractive by making it a survivability talent and/or anti CC talent.
4. Bloodthirst/Shield Slam. Even though I'll never spec fury/prot for PvP I would like to give other warriors who enjoy these specs a chance for some mid tier PvP capability at the very least so they may enjoy other aspects of the game. Add 50% MS debuff to it.
5. Berserker Stance. Remove the incoming damage penalty from it or change the bonus to 5%+ chance to crit or 10%+ damage. Ridiculous trade off atm for our stance that is pretty much required for PvP.
Posted 19 December 2007 - 06:43 PM
Areas needing improvement:
1) Survivability, with the extreme damage tax on berserker stance the warrior gib strategy remains prevailing. Although it can be countered if you're smart having to turtle in dstance spamming spell reflect as our only form of survivability is fairly dumb. Removing or reducing the damage tax on berserker stance would also greatly help this.
2) The rage generation and shields on an enemy player needs to be changed I think. I'm not sure the best way to fix it, obviously you shouldn't gain full rage but not gaining any rage at all on shields is kind of dumb.
3) Abilities only useable in certain stances. Now I'm not saying every ability should be useable in every stance but things like Disarm/Pummel/Intercept should be useable in more than one stance.
Talents/Abilities that could be improved:
1) Rend/Improved Rend. lol? basically a complete waste at this point.
2) Endless Rage. Eventhough some warriors have jumped on the endless rage/last stand crew I still find the talent to be complete garbage and a huge waste. It's a 41 point talent. Come on now, you can do better that. Definately not worth what you're giving up.
3) The intercept/intervene los is pretty ridiculous at the moment. Eventhough your goal was to make it easier being able to teleport across the map around normal los barriers is pretty dumb. It would be cool to see improved intercept affect intervene as well.
4) Pummel off the GCD would be amazing, some might even say overpowered but when a lot of other classes have it why can't we?
5) Mace spec. Let's face it, its overpowered. The fact that your are forced to go maces to be able to play competively in 2v2/3v3 is what angers me the most. I would suggest actually making it a 5% proc rate instead of the 10-12% it is now. Or perhaps just make it proccable on white/on next swing attacks.
6) Berserker stance. As the other warriors above me have said the 10% damage penalty is pretty retarded in pvp. Considering you almost always have to be in this stance to use your key pvp abilities. I would suggest making it an exact opposite of defensive stance and I could be game with that or just reduce the damage penalty to 3-5%
Posted 21 December 2007 - 07:47 PM
41/20/0 (playing in a turtle setup, I found myself far often rage-starved than dependant on TM). This post is a translation from my response in a thread “buff warriors plz” in the german warrior forums.
The problem with warriors is that they were balanced around assumptions that don’t apply any more.
Problem #1 - Survivability
Warrior being the hardiest class isn’t true any more. His HP pool is still among the higher ones, and his armor values are very good. However, armor doesn’t really affect anyone who knows what to do anymore.
Rogues might have their problems, but they can circumvent them with poison and bleeding, hunters with poision and arcane shot, feral druids with bleeding, paladins and shamans wih holy- and elemental/nature-damage. Apart from the fact that most of said classes aren’t in the top arenas; and the real DDs don’t bother about armor at all. So, most affected by a warrior’s armor is... the warrior. The second issue is that the warrior still suffers 10% damage increase while being in his only real combat stance. This means that he becomes the most appealing target for damage that ignores his armor, aka bleeding, poison, magic.
His ability to avoid damage are minimal as well. He may switch to def stance and take out a shield (which he needs even in cases when physical damage is neglible since he has to spell reflect), but in this case, he basically is nullified as a risk for the opposite team. Compare this with, let’s say, a rogue (the class that is most useful for comparisons because it basically does the same job in arenas – physical dps, healing reduction, inexhaustible energy pool for long games). He can pop evasion or CloS and is secure for some seconds, or vanishes and pops up someplace else with full hp, starting his stunlock routine. In any case, the rogue isn’t rendered useless and has, as a side effect, cleared himself of all magic debuffs.
- Zerker Stance only increases physical damage
- Intervene cleares all magical debuffs or at least has a chance to do so (extremely powerful against debuff-dependant classes, so an alternative to this might bet he better way)
- Last stand trainable (yes, that’s true – in warrior gib situation, this talent is comparable to ice bloc, so why not handle it the same way)
- Adding resistances, of simply a kind of a shield (like a priest’s shield only against a single source of damage)
- TM trainable, or at least back to the arms tree. Nowhere I am forced to change stances like in PvP (at least in 2s and 3s), so this skill shouldn’t be in the tree where I spent nearly all of my time stuck with the same stance. It’s getting ridiculous.
Problem #2 - CC-Vulnerability
Apart from fear (and sap effects), the warrior is the class that is most vulnerable to and most gimped by CC. The (more or less) immunity to fear surely is nice, especially if one keeps in mind it’s one of the two most powerful (spammable) CCs ingame (cyclone, because there is nothing to do against it, and fear, since it’s possible to CC and deal damage to the target at the same time).
But there it stops, and CC has additonal negative consequences as well. Because a melee char has to stay close to his target to apply his skills, anything, that prevents the warrior from getting to his target can be considered a full CC, so this applies to roots as well, which are a comparatively minor nuisance for casters (and for rogues, who can at least CloS or sprint out of them). I won’t go into snares since a warrior has intercept to handle this problem.
Apart from this, a warrior isn’t just neutralized for the time of the debuff, but for the time he needs to bridge the distance to his target as well. Pummel isn’t always helping since one often can’t use it in time due to the GCD:
- good for the game: increase the DR-timer for CC to 20 or 25 seconds, or put more CCs on the same timer (if one person can, despite the DR, keep an opponent permanently CCed, or two persons can do so despite massive dispel, something isn’t working right here)
- give the warrior a CC-breaker on an average cooldown (he has too few of them anyways): the idea of making intervene remove debuffs would apply to this category
- giving the warrior an ability to remove physical debuffs and/or poisons (in case they want to keep the warrior vulnerable to magic, but strong against non-magical classes)
- pummel of the GCD
- give the warrior a second interrupt on an average cooldown (might overlap with intercept)
Problem #3 - Utility
The last problem of the warrior is that his possibilities in the arena are very limited. Essentially, he grants two advantages: sustainable damage during long games and healing reduction. But even considering those two core skills, he isn’t the uncontested champion. Healing reduction only works if a warrior is close to the target and has the rage to use MS. A hunter, on the other hand, needs time to use this skill, but is less vulnerable to CC and only needs some mana, and can be at a distance. The sustainable damage during long games may exceed a rogue’s, once he has burned all CDs, but even then, the rogue still has lots of utility on short CDs he can bring in (like keeping someone unable to cast nearly 100% of the time). Apparently, the rogue is the better warrior at the moment. He copies his strenghts, lacks his weaknesses and adds a plethora of special abilities.
A warrior’s additional utilitiy, however, is limited to random generated numbers (the reason why so many chose skillherald for pvp), and, apart from his useful snare abilities, he lacks anything else. Manaburns, controled CC, course of tongue-like ability, dispels? No way.
Even concerning the damage, some problems indeed do exist. First, he only deals physical damage, his bleeding effects are, compared to a rogue or druid, a joke. So armor has the greatest impact on a warrior, and even a clothie already has 20% damage reduction with s2-gear, not to mention healing druids in bear form. A rogue (again) isn’t as limited as the warrior when it comes to energy generation – if his target has 0 or 500 resilience, a rogues recovery rate is the same. Generally, resilience is a great idea, because it puts a limit on a warrior’s damage dealing capacity which used to go through the roof before tbc (that a warrior still deals most damage in arenas after all is, dear forum trolls, because HE CAN’T DO ANYTHING ELSE). But on the other hand, since a warrior isn’t able to dish out most incredible burst anymore, the most important reason to limit his abilities in other way has gone.
- instead of forcing warriors into casino specs (hamstring and mace), he should get reliable CCs on average CDs (as long as deep prot isn’t an option, concussion blow isn’t either)
- improve the bleeding damage of a warrior
- add abilities, that give some utiltiy against casters (a head butt that works like a CoT, or just making thunder clap affect cast speed as well)
- goody for prots: shield slam doesn’t dispel, but burns mana instead
Apart from this: it’s a good time to put our talents on par with other classes’. That we still have to spent 5 points for 5% damage for two handed-weapons, for example, is a joke. That our resistance talent only offers 15% for 5 points, while one of those resistances (charm) is nigh-useless, is another.
That’s my personal opinion. Such a number of ideas means, of course, that implementing all of them would be too much. But maybe they offer input for discussion.
Posted 22 December 2007 - 11:36 PM
the 10sec intervene buff only works if the warrior stays within 10 yards from the intervened target. make it 40 yards, this would make intervene a decent counter to blind (which is on 1:30 cd for most rogues, shorter than the pvp trinket and therefore unremoveable without a paladin the second time), right now an intervened blind happens once in a day.
make execute scale with equip
make disarm remove the ranged weapon when you disarm hunters
remove the 10% damage penalty of berzerker stance
pummel off gcd asap
Posted 24 December 2007 - 05:45 PM
33/28 or 35/23/3 Arms/Fury(/Prot)
* List the content you're primarily pursuing or most enjoy, i.e. Raiding, PvP, Solo, etc...
PvP ONLY - High Bracket Arena (max 2300 2v2/2100 3v3 S2), organized battlegrounds.
* Provide a brief description of the areas you feel are most in need of improvement
- Berserker Stance. The tradeoff of an added 3% crit for a massive 10% increase to incoming damage is hardly, hardly, hardly worth it. Joke's on us though - the majority of our crucial PvP skills can only be used in berserker stance. The bottom line is that the crit-for-damage tradeoff just isn't worth it. Maybe you could make intercept useable in battle stance, or lessen the incoming damage penalty a reasonable amount, perhaps even increasing the crit buff by a small number... or changing it into a base damage increase?
- Rage generation. It's a well known fact that without ER, your rage gen is garbage unless you have B-rage up and you're taking heavy damage. And if you have B-rage up and you're taking heavy damage, you'll most likely be face down on the ground in a couple seconds. And atm, ER specs simply are... garbage. Lose-lose.
* List up to five specific spells/abilities/talents you feel most need change, redesign or improvement in the order you feel each is most in need of attention. (MOST to LESS)
1) PUMMEL. PLEASE, TAKE THIS OFF THE GCD. Mages have counterspell off the gcd, and their silence even lasts for twice as long. Why not give warriors a freaking functional silence? There has been MANY a time where i've lost a match for my team by targetting a healer, putting up MS, then missing a pummel on a crucial heal* because i'm still on the m-f'ing gcd from ms. Bam, rogue gets flash of light*, saving him from dying to my deep wounds. Rogue comes back and gibs us to win the match. PUMMEL ON GCD GIVES ME RAGE IRL. Please, please, please, please take it off.
*Substitute Cyclone, Entangling Roots, Mass Dispel, Polymorph, and Fear as needed.
2) Endless Rage/Imp MS. Eh, as stated before, specs like these just aren't worth the loss of enrage. Maybe give ER the intended 25% rage gain overall (taken/done) before it got pwnt with the nerfbat. Also, maybe try buffing Imp MS a little bit. 5 points for 5% extra damage on a 6 second (5 second) cd? seems like a waste IMO. Maybe also make it increase crit chance of MS 1/2/3/4/5%?
3) Mace vs. Sword Spec. It's pretty clear that mace warriors are op out the heezy atm. More so with Deep Stunder or Skillherald. With t2/t3 bs mace it's like what, 15% chance to stun? It's a well known fact that the recent "nerf" to maces was not a nerf at all - hardly noticeable, as stated by numerous mace warriors - mace warriors still run about a 9% chance to stun WITHOUT using stormherald or DT. Meanwhile, sword spec still runs only a 5% chance to proc. These two specs could use a little evening out - all healers/casters expect their warriors to have maces because they're insanely op when compared to sword spec. I, personally, prefer sword spec because of my playing style - my teams rely on bursting down targets while healers are cc'd, silenced, etc.. And when sword DOES finally proc, it rips. Meanwhile, mace warriors are running around using their PVP SKILLZ LULZ to whirlwind-aoe mace stun... (which has happened to me before.) Pro imo, very skilled. If you think otherwise regarding maces being OP, please, stick your head in a meat grinder.
Posted 27 December 2007 - 01:02 PM
Randomly being unable to interrupt 1.5s casts is stupid.
Posted 06 January 2008 - 07:05 AM
Raiding and arenas are my biggest pursuits. Can't stand battlegrounds.
-Utility and crowd control. Warriors have no utility, no crowd control and we are easily crowd controlled by both druids and mages.
-Domination of mace spec and sword spec. Axes need a buff.
1)Booming voice changed to affect piercing howl as well as what it already affects.
2)Axes changed to increase both crit chance and damage from crits by 5%.
3)This is a general problem with all classes, but talents that give fear resistance should also give polymorph resistance.
Posted 06 January 2008 - 07:46 AM
Randomly being unable to interrupt 1.5s casts is stupid.
Posted 06 January 2008 - 07:55 AM
Randomly being unable to interrupt 1.5s casts is stupid.
agreed, biggest prob with the class right now imo.
Posted 04 February 2008 - 09:04 AM
That might not be the best suggestion, maybe even change it to increase rage generation, I think jsut as things are, enrage definitely needs changed.
Posted 04 February 2008 - 09:05 AM
Randomly being unable to interrupt 1.5s casts is stupid.
"OH HELL, I JUST USED HAMSTRING AND NOW I CANT PUMMEL QQ"
Posted 05 February 2008 - 04:38 PM
lol....we all want to enrage when we do that...:mad: or QQ
Posted 05 February 2008 - 05:20 PM
From playing a mage around the time of the CS being on/off the gcd outrage, the way i understood it is that hunters/warriors/rogues etc have auto attacks causing pushback on spells, so their silence and interupts are on the global cooldown. A mage has no autoattack to cause push back..as does a lock ( to some extent..)
Pvp glove bonuses sorta ruined this ofc
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