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#41 Jedion

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 07:18 PM

it's honestly pretty rare to have one class inferior to another in every way

for instance, holy paladins are overall better at healing than resto shamans, but resto shamans have unique abilities/perks (mainly bloodlust and wind shock) that let them compete


We have better friendly buffs (shouts) and better opposing debuffs (demo and TC)

*shrug*.. its something I guess.
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#42 Fierss

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 07:29 PM

We have better friendly buffs (shouts) and better opposing debuffs (demo and TC)

*shrug*.. its something I guess.


Scorpid sting and pet abilities.
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#43 Cruxis

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 08:47 PM

It's not my fault you misunderstood my post. I fight good warriors all the time that we either have to force defensive or slam CCs into them all game because they'll kill someone if we don't.


Because unmolested hunters do nothing?
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#44 Levidian

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 09:15 PM

Because unmolested hunters do nothing?


Do you have a question or were you just trying to say that classes are less effective when pushed and controlled?

Was there a point you were trying to make?

The point is It's much more safe to let many of the dps classes go ape on your healer than it is for a fury warrior to be unleashed on your healer.

My shaman could tank me 1v1 for probably hours in the arena how long can he tank a fury warrior 1v1? Not even close to the same amount of time. The point is a good warrior is still one of the most dangerous targets to leave unhindered and you're forced to either force them defensive or CC them.

We had a team with a Fury war and a rogue that split on my priest/mage in 5v5 and it was amazing how much damage they could put out to the point that their lone damage when not CC locked was enough to force us to use defensive CDs.

Are warriors as balanced or well designed as they should be? That answer is most assuredly no.

Is there a warrior spec thats relatively pretty effective? Yes
Does that spec not appeal to some players of the class? Yes
Has any other class had to deal with the same situation in the past? Yes on many occasions.
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#45 Cruxis

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 09:25 PM

Was there a point you were trying to make?


Your point was that you either have to CC a warrior, or make them go defensive via pressure. You made it sound like no other class does the same. Which is wrong.
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#46 Levidian

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 09:29 PM

Your point was that you either have to CC a warrior, or make them go defensive via pressure. You made it sound like no other class does the same. Which is wrong.


That wasn't my thinking or intent of my post.

Warriors and rogues for that matter still remain among the most dangerous classes when left alone and that was what I was going for. Your presence on an arena team regardless of who you're fighting will force the other team to utilize a strat that revolves around making sure your damage isn't free.

You'll never hear a team say focus on the X class I'll just heal through the warriors damage.
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#47 Grunz

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 09:58 PM

The thing about hunters that needs to be addressed is how viable they are in all phases of the game. I literally cannot name a situation in pvp where I feel that a hunter is at a significant disadvantage. Obviously hunters have their weaknesses, or they'd be dominating all the arenas, but hunters essentially have baseline skills to bring to the table against all comps:

mana drains
MS
incapacitating CCs (not the way Blizzard uses the word "incapacitate", but just to mean that it prevents the target from performing actions)
snares (both single target and group)
a pet (for keeping people in combat, etc)
good defensive cooldowns
offensive dispels
situational defensive dispels (Master's Call)

And these are all things a hunter doesn't have to spec for. They can get other things, like replenishment or silences, depending on which trees they go into.

Now, this used to not be as big of a deal, because hunters had more abilities that required cast times, so you could LoS them more easily. And their damage wasn't particularly spectacular, so all their bread-n-butter comps were typically outlast/drain comps. They also had a pretty strong skill variable, where a bad hunter was immediately distinguishable from a good hunter, so a decent hunter would get farmed by a decent player using a different (read: faceroll) class.

But given that hunters can now dps as hard as pretty much any other class, a lot of the utility that Blizzard kept piling onto hunters is becoming more apparent. And I suspect that the problem will get worse when Blizz tones down burst, because a hunter is still a marathon class whose contributions to a match really start to show as a game gets longer. Frost traps, viper sting, wyvern sting, replenishment, aim shot...these are all things that become devastating when people are running out of gas.

A lot of hunters have largely been unable to display the full capabilities of their class because matches go so fast in most cases that it's not even worth it to do anything but spam shots, but I think that when matches slow down and hunters can start digging around in their toolbox a little more, all the goodies that they picked up in BC to balance their lack of finisher power will be striking.
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#48 Konfucius

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 10:20 PM

TnT needs to be removed and lock an load may need to be looked at as far as the amount of damage we put out with it. Other than that, however, we're nowhere near rogue levels of retardation.
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#49 Levidian

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 10:38 PM

TnT needs to be removed and lock an load may need to be looked at as far as the amount of damage we put out with it. Other than that, however, we're nowhere near rogue levels of retardation.


Yep those are my feelings as well.
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#50 Fierss

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 10:44 PM

TnT needs to be removed and lock an load may need to be looked at as far as the amount of damage we put out with it. Other than that, however, we're nowhere near rogue levels of retardation.


Pretty accurate, including the part about rogues, except rogues can be killed quickly, while hunters can't (by me. I'm not a mage). Not disagreeing, however, just commenting.
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#51 Slevan

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 10:58 PM

I feel like an arcane mage and a rogue combined.

It's pretty neat.
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#52 Ilth

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 11:17 PM

for the love of god, please people, stop mentioning hunter 'draining'.

it's dead. get over it. (unless you're a priest, VERYSADFASE)

casual catering. in order to see an increase in hunter representation (no one can deny that the number of hunters 2.2k+ in any season in BC was shockingly low) they had to make it easier for 14 year olds (or anyone with half a brain) to pleygud, like was the case of warriors and rogues in BC (or since forever?). this obviously resulted in the hunter class being deadly in the hands of someone experienced and fluent with the class because of the huge arsenal of tricks hunters posses. hunter utility became evident to anyone who could understand the general mechanics and 'laws' of arena.

welcome warriors, to every hunter QQMYCLASSISBROKEN thread that was the burning crusade. doesn't feel so great does it? =(. not to say that i don't think survival is overpowered, or that it shouldn't receive a nerf (i was thinking maybe 1 shot off CD if LnL procs off traps? and clearly, remove TNT stun), but coming from classes that showed some ridiculous representation in the last expansion compared to hunters - i'm going to enjoy the sadistic laughter while i can.
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IT'S A TRAP >:o

#53 Ilth

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 11:20 PM

wait i have a good idea

let's just trade ES for removal of the deadzone in the survival tree!
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IT'S A TRAP >:o

#54 frickzorz

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 11:23 PM

I feel like an arcane mage and a rogue combined.

It's pretty neat.


A bit overstated, but I see what you're saying. The case remains, despite what any of you say, our single target dps isn't as high as either of those classes, we can't stun lock anyone while damaging or for nearly as long regardless, and we don't have an "oh shit" button. SV DAMAGE is OP, but QQing about all of our tools and how good players are revealing the bad ones is seriously getting fucking annoying. Quit the game if it sucks. Arenas are broken hardcore anyways so it's not like it really matters. As always, gg blizzard.
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#55 Dahislol

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 11:38 PM

Played some Druid/War today and hit nothing but Hunter/Pally and Hunter/Shaman. Survival Hunters are 100% unjustifiable right now, easily as bad as DKs prepatch.

Blizzard's design philosophy with Hunters is just terrible. If you want to let baddies do well with a class, make it easier to play. Don't make it an unstoppable killing machine of doom.
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#56 Grombringal

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 11:48 PM

Back on topic: Queue dodge Surv Hunter teams (lol yeah good luck with that)

Surv Hunters are fuckingly retarded, played some Priest/Hunter the other day and we just raped everything but Surv Hunter teams. Man, my hunter even 1vs2 some teams.
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#57 ProudToBeAWoman

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 04:16 AM

for the love of god, please people, stop mentioning hunter 'draining'.

it's dead. get over it. (unless you're a priest, VERYSADFASE)

casual catering. in order to see an increase in hunter representation (no one can deny that the number of hunters 2.2k+ in any season in BC was shockingly low) they had to make it easier for 14 year olds (or anyone with half a brain) to pleygud, like was the case of warriors and rogues in BC (or since forever?). this obviously resulted in the hunter class being deadly in the hands of someone experienced and fluent with the class because of the huge arsenal of tricks hunters posses. hunter utility became evident to anyone who could understand the general mechanics and 'laws' of arena.

welcome warriors, to every hunter QQMYCLASSISBROKEN thread that was the burning crusade. doesn't feel so great does it? =(. not to say that i don't think survival is overpowered, or that it shouldn't receive a nerf (i was thinking maybe 1 shot off CD if LnL procs off traps? and clearly, remove TNT stun), but coming from classes that showed some ridiculous representation in the last expansion compared to hunters - i'm going to enjoy the sadistic laughter while i can.


Slightly off topic, but I figure I'd throw a small cluster of theories out there for the fuck of it.

(Disclaimer: In no way do I think hunters were op'd in BC and probably needed a slight buff)

I think some of the reason hunters had such low representation in high-tier arena was because of two things.

1. No fun to play with. Most games as hunter/healer (especially druid) were long and boring as compared to the other dps options out there.

2. Hunters were new to the arena scene as a whole once they got buffed. Pre-buff, hunters were terribad and had next to no representation and most healers, druids especially, already had warrior or rogue partners they were perfectly happy with, giving the hunter class a slow start, augmented by the boring games mentioned in reason 1.

Just something that's been milling about in my mind.
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#58 Powerslave

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 10:59 AM

for the love of god, please people, stop mentioning hunter 'draining'.

it's dead. get over it. (unless you're a priest, VERYSADFASE)

casual catering. in order to see an increase in hunter representation (no one can deny that the number of hunters 2.2k+ in any season in BC was shockingly low) they had to make it easier for 14 year olds (or anyone with half a brain) to pleygud, like was the case of warriors and rogues in BC (or since forever?). this obviously resulted in the hunter class being deadly in the hands of someone experienced and fluent with the class because of the huge arsenal of tricks hunters posses. hunter utility became evident to anyone who could understand the general mechanics and 'laws' of arena.

welcome warriors, to every hunter QQMYCLASSISBROKEN thread that was the burning crusade. doesn't feel so great does it? =(. not to say that i don't think survival is overpowered, or that it shouldn't receive a nerf (i was thinking maybe 1 shot off CD if LnL procs off traps? and clearly, remove TNT stun), but coming from classes that showed some ridiculous representation in the last expansion compared to hunters - i'm going to enjoy the sadistic laughter while i can.


Yeah warriors were broken,that's why if you removed druids,it was amongst the worst classes in the game for 2s/3s.

If a class is broken it doesn't do good with only one partner,looks rogues and druids for that.In warriors' case it was certain comps.
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#59 Powerslave

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 11:01 AM

wait i have a good idea

let's just trade ES for removal of the deadzone in the survival tree!


that's like a rogue asking 40 yard range for all his attacks...no.
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#60 Pobzy

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 11:11 AM

that's like a rogue asking 40 yard range for all his attacks...no.


I haven't seen a single post from you that has been constructive or makes any sense at all.
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