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Survival Hunters.


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#21 ProudToBeAWoman

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 04:40 AM

I don't think rogues/hunters should have better healing debuffs than MS. The old wound/aimed shot (with perhaps a shorter cast) would've been fine. It'd be like giving pallies a 20% mana burn or warriors a 9s kidney shot.


I agree, it seems to me like they took warrior core abilities that made them shine and gave them to others without drawbacks.

Dismantle: Disarm without need for a stance swap (- rage and damage reduced, and minus rage again when you switch back) that also disarms ranged/off hand

Wound became MS Chance on hit and castable

Aimed Shot is really far up the tree and every spec gets it, no rage cost (point being it's never a question of whether you can get it up or not) and with a huge range (so you can't run away from it)

Kill shot: execute that doesn't kill your mana/rage bar (Of course it doesn't deal as much damage as a 100 rage execute but 100 rage executes seldom occur and anyone who has played a warriors knows the problems with execute burning all your rage so I digress)

I think the most humorous of all of this is that of all the new MS's the Fury, warrior, one is the worst.

Sorry for the QQ, just something that's been building up since the expansion started.
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#22 Pirated

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 04:41 AM

Warriors get raped by high armor. SV hunters deal fire damage.

Warriors have 3 min CD fear as CC. SV hunters have 1 min cooldown sting and freezing trap (on same DR).

Warriors have intercept. SV hunters have scatter.

Warriors have melee MS if arms (which sucks) or unreliable proc MS as fury. Hunters have ranged reliable MS.

Warriors give up most damage when they turtle up, and shield wall is really their only O SHIT button. SV hunters have deterrence and disengage on low cooldowns

Warriors had mace stun removed

SV hunters have random stun proc

honestly, is there a single way in which a warrior is better than an SV hunter? less damage overall, but requires melee. Worse peeling, worse MS, no mana drain, etc

it's kind of scary
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#23 Levidian

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 04:43 AM

I don't think rogues/hunters should have better healing debuffs than MS. The old wound/aimed shot (with perhaps a shorter cast) would've been fine. It'd be like giving pallies a 20% mana burn or warriors a 9s kidney shot.


What? No it wouldn't be like any of those things.
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#24 Levidian

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 04:49 AM

Okay, "devastating with support". I'm the one with wild, unfounded opinions. This entire class forum hates you because you say off the wall shit and now you have the audacity to tell someone they don't know what they're talking about. This is a game where rogues kill people during crowd control chains and win the mana war when they're not doing it--where hunters can lock and load a target into ground while another hostile is trapped and press mana when they're not doing it. Maybe you don't notice the woes of "common people" because you're too busy masturbating to the mirror, but things don't glitter for every class right now. Mortal strike or ridiculous damage, it's one or the other, not both.


It's not my fault you misunderstood my post. I fight good warriors all the time that we either have to force defensive or slam CCs into them all game because they'll kill someone if we don't.
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#25 Warguyver

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 05:03 AM

What? No it wouldn't be like any of those things.


It'd be exactly like the examples I just listed.
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#26 vroomt

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 05:04 AM

Warriors get raped by high armor. SV hunters deal fire damage.

Warriors have 3 min CD fear as CC. SV hunters have 1 min cooldown sting and freezing trap (on same DR).

Warriors have intercept. SV hunters have scatter.

Warriors have melee MS if arms (which sucks) or unreliable proc MS as fury. Hunters have ranged reliable MS.

Warriors give up most damage when they turtle up, and shield wall is really their only O SHIT button. SV hunters have deterrence and disengage on low cooldowns

Warriors had mace stun removed

SV hunters have random stun proc

honestly, is there a single way in which a warrior is better than an SV hunter? less damage overall, but requires melee. Worse peeling, worse MS, no mana drain, etc

it's kind of scary


Whats this got to do with anything?
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#27 Pirated

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 05:27 AM

Whats this got to do with anything?

it's just kind of weird...I was going to make a new thread, but I just posted it here

can you think of a single way in which warriors are better than SV hunters? I can't
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#28 Hirim

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 06:01 AM

it's just kind of weird...I was going to make a new thread, but I just posted it here

can you think of a single way in which warriors are better than SV hunters? I can't


Warriors need some tweaks and buffs for arena? I thought that had been clear since the beginning of WotLK.

Even on my rogue I shit on warriors which is mildly amusing as I remember back in BC not being able to go toe-to-toe with a warrior without getting destroyed, now its no big deal thanks to dismantle and crazy mutilate damage.
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#29 Pirated

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 06:04 AM

Warriors need some tweaks and buffs for arena? I thought that had been clear since the beginning of WotLK.

Even on my rogue I shit on warriors which is mildly amusing as I remember back in BC not being able to go toe-to-toe with a warrior without getting destroyed, now its no big deal thanks to dismantle and crazy mutilate damage.

you could still easily go toe-to-toe with a warrior as a rogue pre-TBC

honestly, the class has been overrated for a long time

everyone knows that warriors need some buffs...what I'm getting at is that SV is literally better in every way
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#30 vroomt

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 06:15 AM

you could still easily go toe-to-toe with a warrior as a rogue pre-TBC

honestly, the class has been overrated for a long time

everyone knows that warriors need some buffs...what I'm getting at is that SV is literally better in every way


who gives a shit? Its a warrior asking advice on how to beat a survival hunter, hes not fucking asking you to compare the 2 classes is he?

p.s. out of context but you guys are just as much to blame as levidian and hirim for the amount of bullshit that gets posted (and deletedlol) on these forums.
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#31 Pirated

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 06:16 AM

who gives a shit? Its a warrior asking advice on how to beat a survival hunter, hes not fucking asking you to compare the 2 classes is he?

p.s. out of context but you guys are just as much to blame as levidian and hirim for the amount of bullshit that gets posted (and deletedlol) on these forums.

yeah, if people stopped responding to levidian (me included) he would probably just give up after a while

as for the warrior asking for advice, sorry, your class is utter shit in every way compared to an SV hunter...good luck next time
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#32 Auvvey

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 06:34 AM

It's not my fault you misunderstood my post. I fight good warriors all the time that we either have to force defensive or slam CCs into them all game because they'll kill someone if we don't.


Thats exactly the point. You have CC, mana drains, high damage & MS. Warriors have half, at best.

Just because some good warriors can keep from being annihilated, it doesn't mean you can't still win anyways. Grats on proving Turel's point for him though.
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#33 vroomt

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 07:19 AM

yeah, if people stopped responding to levidian (me included) he would probably just give up after a while

as for the warrior asking for advice, sorry, your class is utter shit in every way compared to an SV hunter...good luck next time


Sadly I doubt that.

One class is better than another? Holy shit alert the fucking press this is a unheard of!
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#34 Morsexy

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 08:18 AM

How come so many hunters troll the warrior forums? It's pretty stupid and here I thought we were supposed to have all this highbrow discussion shit "sort" of what its like on EJ.

Most of this wasn't constructive in the least, and was about 1 step above reading garbage posted on the wow open forums, and that one step only because I assume everyone posting in here has at least some above average modicum of skill even if it didn't translate into not posting retarded shit.
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#35 vroomt

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 09:02 AM

Yeah sorry about that. I just saw the thread "survival hunters" on the last thread posted in bit on the main forum page and assumed it was in the hunter forums. When I saw redundant and protagonist arguing with levidian and hirim I was positive it was the hunter forums! Just annoying seeing them arguing all the time about stupid shit and trying to bait one another.

Carry on warriors, bl on the class, hope you get better!
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#36 Powerslave

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 10:43 AM

Sadly I doubt that.

One class is better than another? Holy shit alert the fucking press this is a unheard of!


Yeah one class better than another (all 3 specs) in every way is clearly a minor issue we've seen very often in the past.

OHWAIT it has never happened before,silly me.
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#37 Levidian

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 01:42 PM

There are 9 warriors on the SK 100 and 11 hunters. Considering some of the best warriors in the game "gave up" for some reason it looks like the two classes are doing fairly equally well at the top of the game.

If you don't want to go fury to succeed right now that's your decision every other class is subject to the "specing what works" mindset. Arms should end up getting a damage upgrade I'm surprised they didn't in 3.0.8.

Do you think hunters thought BM was some exceptionally diverse build that let us show our skills? No. It was a build that did basically nothing except output high amounts of damage with very little control/interrupts etc to go with it but we used it you know why? Because it was the best we had to use for most of the team setups.
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#38 lobster

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 02:07 PM

Thats exactly the point. You have CC, mana drains, high damage & MS. Warriors have half, at best.

Just because some good warriors can keep from being annihilated, it doesn't mean you can't still win anyways. Grats on proving Turel's point for him though.


not to fan the flames ... but you realize you could [insert hunter here] in the bolded section and have the retort used for every hunter since BC launched. Megatf and cherez were the poster boys for the "well some hunters do just fine" campaign by the rest of the game
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#39 Levidian

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 02:20 PM

The hunter class scales really widely with player skill.

A bad hunter playing SV is still going to get shit on a good hunter playing SV is going to be good a world class hunter playing SV is going to be a very dangerous opponent to face in the arena.

Hunters in the past had a very awkward platform for the player to utilize to achieve victory. The best hunters in the game still managed to do well by playing perfectly tuned comps with perfectly tuned specs and there was very little variation outside of the 5v5 bracket.

Now hunters are an actually well designed competitive platform to utilize and the top end players are using it full bore to win games. There aren't any huge gaping holes in the class/spec now so there isn't anything that can be wildly exploited. We can also fulfill the role as primary MS on a team which means our synergy with hybrids has gone up a ton. We're able to fulfill the role as the primary MS on a team and we're carrying some of that utility that made a hunter a hunter which gives the class diversity and flavor.

What happened as a result of that is the hunter potentially didn't lose enough to off set the gains and potentially has overtaken warriors and rogues as the best primary dps avilable.

The main thing we lost was Viper sting getting completely destroyed.

What we gained was a reliable MS, some damage, and pet's that aren't useless for things other than keeping someone in combat.

Overall the change is for the better as viper sting is a wildly and inherently imbalanced ability because of how effective it is vs some and how ineffective it is vs others. You could compare viper stings bull shit to something like mortal strike being 80% reduction vs priests and 20% reduction vs druids. We were being built around an inherently imbalanced ability and thus the class was inherently imbalanced because of it.

Are survival hunters better than warriors and rogues? In some team compositions definitely... in all of them? No.

Until you see hunters shitting all over rogues and warriors in high end representation you can't really make wild claims. What can be done right now is the class can continue to be tuned to remove potentially game winning RNG.

TNT stun needs removed.
Entrapment could be changed to something like a 1 second knock down instead of a 4 second root.

The class all together though doesn't have a ton of game winning RNG it has what it has and those abilities are balanced around cool downs. The class puts out strong consistent damage, and augments it with a fair amount of utility and control.
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#40 Pirated

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Posted 27 January 2009 - 05:52 PM

Sadly I doubt that.

One class is better than another? Holy shit alert the fucking press this is a unheard of!

it's honestly pretty rare to have one class inferior to another in every way

for instance, holy paladins are overall better at healing than resto shamans, but resto shamans have unique abilities/perks (mainly bloodlust and wind shock) that let them compete
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