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[Mage/Rogue] rogue+mage vs. holy pally/dk


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#1 Kwee

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 12:48 AM

So, 1700+ and the holy paladin isn't so retarded he doesn't bubble my nuke, what do we do now?

There simply doesn't seem to be anything we can do to kill a holy pally/dk team, we know the strat, but it doesn't work unless we can gib the paladin before he bubbles, which isn't possible unless they have down syndrome.
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#2 Kwee

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 11:36 PM

bump because arena is fail
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#3 Pownmeisterz

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 11:51 PM

The best option is to go for a kill on the pally, you'll want to be extremely aggressive and go for a sap on DK, then blanket CS+shatter on the pally to force a bubble. If your rogue isn't fail, it should be enough dmg to make him panic. This can all fall apart if the DK isn't CCed and is free to interrupt your dmg. If that happens, you can CS the DK to prevent a strangulate/death grip while you cast into the pally.
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#4 wmd221

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 11:59 PM

sap dk, blow paladin up to bubble, dismantle + blind on dk as needed. Its basically up to your rogue to kill the paladin once the DK gets AMZ up, you mostly just need to play defensive and survive with assist dps when you can.
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#5 Kwee

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 11:19 AM

I'll try and explain how our fights usually went.

I specced arcane, we did about the same as frost tbh, but my rogue figures its better to have a nuke they can't see coming a mile away, and one they can't simply cleanse (i.e shatter).

The only time we ever won seems to be when we gibbed the paladin before he could shield, and that works fine, up to 1650-1700... after that, we started to play against less paladins with brain damage (you know, the ones who realize that the mage and rogue can't be specced for healing, and we are in fact 2 dps).

This is where the issues start. When the paladin bubbles, we want to reset the fight - eg. I invis, he vanishes.

Problems: Death and decay doesn't have to do damage to knock us out of stealth/invis, it will if it so much as touches us, and it always does, I mean come on, what DK doesn't drop it instantly on a rogue or mage before they can get away? And we usually can't get out of LOS (and literally half our fights are in ring of valor or dalaran arena, fucking need to fire those morons who made them and remove them) due to, well to be blunt, DKs being stupidly OP and the paladin making sure neither of us get to anywhere he can't knock us right back out again.

Additionally, about 50-75% of the time my rogue vanishes, the ghoul pet does not lose pathing on the rogue, it runs up and gnaws him regardless.

And when the DK drops DnD on us we get fear locked 100-0, no way out, can't ice block, can't trinket, can't blink, can't cloak, can't do anything. Once the DK has DnD on us, he insta wins. Considering the size of DnD, it doesn't even count as an RNG fear, its a perma super-powered fearlock.

I've specced PvE, might actually do some until DKs and paladins are nerfed all the way to their own damn graves. Right now, my rogue refuses to play, and a lot of the time I do too. It is simply too frustrating.


We got 1705 in 2v2, 1743 in 3v3 until our priest started blaming us for not keeping him alive (we couldn't even nuke the enemy priest if it was a mirror or anything remotely similar, because the entire time was spent trying to save him). He'd blame us for getting outplayed when he didn't even trinket a rogue or use pain surpression. Essentially to him it was our fault when we did 40k dmg each to their priest, they did 15k each to our priest, and our priest dies and theirs doesn't (unless he manages to live for more than a few seconds). Needless to say we aren't playing with him anymore.

We essentially gave up on arena after we got played from 1705-1641 by facing counter team, counter team, counter team... if we dodge 1 counter, we run into another. Now my rogue refuses to even try again.
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#6 Lieto

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 11:32 AM

play it as vs war+pal — keep pressure high at all times its the only way to win.
If paladin bubbles (and it should bubble fast, really) — nuke dk. Blowing cds like IB and clos+vanish defensively is rly smth that you should be doing. Stack some poisons on him, disarm him and then sheep after bubble ends so paladin has much more to dispell then just a sheep. At this point dk will blow his defensive cds and you can even switch to him later if paladin runs too far. Stun to force freedom, spellsteal, etc.

AMZ is pretty retarded in its current state though and can loose you some games if used wise.

As for opener: Clos to avoid death and decay if needed, sprint, sap dk, garrote paladin + mutilate+cbevis+muti +pompyro +barrage. There you go — he bubbled if not died in 3 seconds.
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#7 Kwee

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 11:38 AM

One thing I always fear is throwing my pompyro into his bubble ._.

So I shouldn't worry about that and just go all out regardless, rather than saving it for after the bubble?

The thing is... if we go on the DK, he usually just slaughters my rogue... well, at least near enough so the rogue is screwed and pretty much has to run the rest of the fight, which ends with a paladin/DK zerg down on a rogue who can't do anything because his vanish is bugged, his clos doesn't remove ebon plague, (edit: i think i meant frost fever...) etc.

We never switched to the DK, it was always omgrunnnnhe'sbubbled!
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#8 Lieto

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 11:51 AM

If you manage to nuke pala that fast — then ofc you can reset, because dk would be still in sap and rogue will have np to vanish while you can go invis if you want.
If you screw that however its better to do smth useful — pressure — rather then run away from dk mindlessly eating all his damage with your back (that applies to rogue mostly).

Evasion+disarm tanking is more or less fine and paladin wont have a choice to run bubbled into the other end of the map because he actually needs to heal and so you can easily switch to him after if you feel like it.

Playing vs war+pal we even managed to not let pala heal himself while bubbled at all, because pressure on warrior was insane. AMZ is your worst enemy.
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#9 Jarui

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 11:52 AM

Me and my mage partner Zezee pretty much do what you explained against DK/Holy palla - try get a sap/sheep on the DK whilst stunning and blowing the Paladin up. Then when the pala bubbles, both vanish. How do you guys get caught in the DnD/Ghoul all the time? When I vanish the pet usually is already dead (mage might've killed it before vanishing if it was low on health for some reason) or it just resets like the lucky bitch I am.

Also, before you Invis, are you sheeping the DK? This should get you enough time to run away before he can get a DnD up, and even if he has gotten one up it shoud be enough to run away/blink away a bit then Invis because he will ususally not have a trinket up for the sheep, and the paladin will be casting Holy Lights on himself (unless he's Einstein and cleanses really fast!)

This has worked against some of the top DK/Pala (who are, lo and behold, good) teams in our BG and to be honest, it goes well most, if not all, of the times unless it's Orgrimmar arena due to the DK being able to DG/DnD much easier. >_>
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#10 Kwee

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 11:53 AM

@Lieto - Sounds like good advise then. We pretty much tell ourselves when the rogue vanishes, it wont work. Of course when it doesn't work, there's not much we can do :(

Hopefully this strat will work a bit more effectively... if I can ever convince my rogue to come into arenas again (and respec).

@Naive - We weren't sheeping the DK, no, figured it would just be cleansed, I usually slowed him, ran, invis'd. Next time I'll sheep if possible, although at the point where his paladin bubbled theres a good chance he'll be using a DG/CoI/strangulate combo and I'll have to IB it, blink to a pillar, run around, invis.

Thing is... even if we have a solid strat... it never goes according to plan (mostly due to bugs). I don't think I could find the time to kill his pet though, doubt I can spare the GCDs and barrages.


TBH, I'd rather be playing as frost... is this simply not an option?

------------------------------------------------------

So essentially, my rogue always tells me when he's going to sap, so I stay out of LOS (in case he messes it up, which thankfully, he rarely does) while being as close as I can, when he's sapped I nuke the paladin, opening with ABar->PoM/Pyro->FBlast(->CS before the pom/pyro, or save for the DK when I'm going to sheep him so he can't DG me?)

Then when the paladin bubbles, my rogue switches to the ghoul, I CS (if I don't use it on the paladin?) the DK-> sheep the DK and call for my rogue to vanish while I throw an ABar at the ghoul (assuming its alive), then i invis... and if all went to plan, we get away to eat/evo, and then nuke the paladin with what we have left?

Ok, lack of sleep made me get this ALL WRONG. We don't try to invis/vanish, when the paladin bubbles we kill the ghoul, then we switch to the DK and stack every debuff we have onto him, then when the bubble is ending, we sheep the DK and kill the paladin?
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#11 Missekatten

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 12:18 PM

Kwee. try execute this strategy.

Sap DK. pop the pala bubble by stunlock+avrerage arcane nuke, shuld make him bubble pretty damn fast.

sheep at the end of sap > follow with a blind > sheep again.

after bubble is gone, he will try lololLOS game while waiting for AMZ. dont let the DK get out off cc easily. if he trinkets blind and strangulate ur sheep have rogue disarm ultra fast. he uses a rune so i dunno if he can use a chain. after that rogue vanish offensively and stuns+ks which will be freedomed.
but here comes ur heroic macro that activates a trinket+Arcane power+Pom+Pyro.
and then barrage/fireblast arcane explode while rogue fucks him up. use a blanket CS after he freedoms KS because he WILL do a holy shock and if it crits he got a chance to survive long enuff for DK to save the day for him

and yes ur sheep can be cleansed, but its hard to cleanse sumthing with a rogue/mage on u i can tell u that. and the anti dispell in your tree can save u until patch day. sometimes i can waste 5 globals on a sheep +__+

frost is good if u find urself the target most of the time.
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#12 Kwee

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 12:22 PM

Thanks bubble, we have tried to CC the DK during bubble but every single time we have failed miserably... something just seems... to go wrong.

I think I'd rather be playing as frost, and might help a bit more with controlling the DK while the paladin is bubbled. Only trouble will be lining up a shatter on the paladin, if I can't, then he wont even have to bubble.
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#13 listerx

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 01:38 PM

try killing the pet before you hop on the paladin
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#14 tysopz

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 01:49 PM

I just know that if we didn't have AMZ rogue/mage would tear us apart.
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#15 Kwee

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 01:49 PM

After we sap the DK? Is it worth the time it would take?

Doesn't make sense because the rogue would have to blow his opener, and I doubt I'm going to be able to solo it with a dk and paladin on me.
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#16 listerx

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 10:15 PM

yea we normally just kill pet and ill vanish re-open on paladin or just not vanish and open, works just fine for us. having the pet dead saves us grief and helps the mage get away so he can eat
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#17 Kwee

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 11:04 PM

yea we normally just kill pet and ill vanish re-open on paladin or just not vanish and open, works just fine for us. having the pet dead saves us grief and helps the mage get away so he can eat


Would you be so kind as to fraps some of your vs.holy/unholy fights for me? :D

(and for pretty much every other rogue/mage out there :( )
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#18 listerx

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 03:25 AM

I wish i knew how fraps worked. I downloaded it the other day but it was only recording 29 second clips. I guess I have to buy the full version.
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#19 Kwee

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 04:14 AM

I wish i knew how fraps worked. I downloaded it the other day but it was only recording 29 second clips. I guess I have to buy the full version.


If you:

* Have 20GB+ free HDD space
* Have Windows XP or Vista
* Can play WoW at above 60fps during arena without fraps (fraps will reduce this considerably, possibly even in half or more, so running well above 60FPS is preferred) - you can simply try frapsing with your 30 second (unregistered) version to see if it lags you too much.
* Are willing to take the time to record the fights and upload them somewhere (filefront works)

Then I'll PM you the full version of fraps and help you with instructions/questions.
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#20 Jarui

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 04:27 PM

Or you can use the Xfire ingame live stream, that works. But I'm not 100% sure if you can save your clips. If I do and record something I'll get back to you. :)
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