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[Blizzard] Arena Damage - Blizzard Feedback


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#21 Drizzt

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 11:59 AM

you are a paladin...

2x Red lighting hunter, the dmg is insane when im playing with my priest a hunter just kills me in a gcd when my cds arent rdy and if he doesnt kill me in a gcd i just ran oom really really fast
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#22 Rice

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 12:02 PM

Just gonna say 15% is nowhere near enough, i get damaged for 10k in a cheap shot 15% is not gonna help much but the numbers can be worked out. Also I met some people who say warlocks will be done for if they get damage nerf, their dmg is fine they just dont live long enough to do it.


You have to keep in mind that *some* classes' damage need to be specifically nerfed, with mut rogues definitely being one of them.
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#23 Vlada

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 12:05 PM

Just make resi to work on all damage
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#24 Grul

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 01:27 PM

BM hunter is great for burst and arena is all about burst these days.
But when blizz buffs resi and nerfs BM, hunters with all specs will suck again.
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#25 Levidian

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 01:42 PM

Resilience needs to have flat damage reductions built into the stat + Not work against NonPlayerControlled mobs.

If resilience is supposed to be tuned for PvP and we have to balance the stat around what it might do against a NPC the stat is already destined for failure.

People have been bringing this up for a long time.
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#26 Aushe

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 01:59 PM

-mage+3 images (+water elemental) needs to get solved, its way too much burst who noone can survive ( who doesn't have immunity effect anyway


i DO agree with everything in your post, except this. What needs to happen is not a 50% dmg decrease and healing, but a simple overall balance. that 50% decrease will still leave an imbalance in certain classes as opposed to others. Mirror image is no different than Treants. and no one complains about that. the mage class is starting to balance out with others, not entirely but on its way. On the flip side, certain classes need bigtime dmg reductions (i.e as you said, Ambush) a big nerf to DKs is in order too; people complain about mirror image and arcane barrage. but mage survivability atm is HA! but I read more posts about nerfing that instead of certain specced DKs is like a 4v1.

Ive said in previous statements that DK ghoul res should be like 10 seconds if anything. I also thing the ghoul fighter should be a 45 sec summon JUST like water elemental. even it out and have water elementals become a specced pet. Maybe increase the Nova CD to avoid 45 million shatter complaints.

I do agree that classes like warlocks need survivability buffs, and Warriors -- 9k shield bash, lololol. speaks for itself.

just my opinion..
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#27 Duckers

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 02:37 PM

Mirror image is no different than Treants. and no one complains about that.

Mirror Image is leaps and bounds ahead of Treants in utility. :P
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#28 Kubuss

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 02:43 PM

Treants do like 100x the damage of Mirror Images and don't lose arena games for you :/
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#29 Dynimight

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 03:06 PM

Treants do like 100x the damage of Mirror Images and don't lose arena games for you :/


You never accidently waste time attacking a treant because you think it's a druid and then get hit by a 13k starfire because you picked the wrong one. They are VERY different skills. No one complains about mirror image because of the damage of the images.

As Duckers said, the utility is leaps and bounds ahead of treants.
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you're all subconsciously racists. hunters are fine.


#30 Magdain

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 03:09 PM

A blanket damage and healing modifier will not help the damage situation in pvp, the problem isn't damage across the board. Most class and talent combinations do reasonable pvp damage, slightly high but resilience will fix them. The problem is ultimately a few select classes and specs.

Mutilate Rogues, Arcane Mages, Retribution Paladins, Feral Druids, Beast Mastery Hunters are all doing too much damage. The other specs of these classes are generally reasonable damage. Warlocks are doing a tiny bit too little damage in a pvp environment. Every other class has pretty reasonable numbers.

Applying a static -x% damage -y% healing will make healing reduction effects more valuable than they are currently, which will have a slight effect on the meta-game. The problem is it will not fix what classes are viable as a filler role. For example, the flat damage reduction will make a warrior or rogue a virtually mandatory slot for any bracket, but in 3s/5s there will be no reason to take anything other than the above-listed specs with high damage for the 2nd DPS slot.

This also raises a huge problem with PvE balance. Mutilate rogues will still have higher damage than more balanced classes after a damage multiplier, but how can you nerf them where it has an effect on the new pvp damage numbers without completely neutering them in PvE? We're all here because of the fact that we're PvP players but PvE will always be a crucial part of this game and can't be ignored simply because a particular group of people don't like doing it.


There are no magical fixes, but my take on changes. The biggest changes are aimed at rogues because it's the class I can most familiarly pinpoint problems with. These aren't by-the-book necessary changes, just a guideline. I'll add a summary of what my goal is to accomplish at the end so anybody who reads this can branch off their own way if they agree.


Rogue
-Make Ruthlessness 100% proc rate.
-Nerf Eviscerate damage but keep the scaling.
-Buff base damage or scaling of rupture and remove/lower some of the % scaling talents that effect it, for an overall gain in pvp damage of the ability.
-Do something with Master of Subtlety. It's nice that this went from bad to very good, but it's a 10% multiplier and is a big cause of the "look at this shadow dance rogue kill me with 3 back to back ambushes" complaints, which are warranted.
-Again do something with the Subtlety tree in general to make it more appealing.

The general goal here is to push rogues into using more finishers with more variety and less brute force mutilate/evis spam. Just in general more finesse play that is dependent on intelligent cooldown use, and using targeted pressure to blow enemy cooldowns and land a kill.

There are no mutilate nerfs in general which might be necessary, but I think this will fix itself once rogues are pushed back into wearing pvp gear as mutilate and people get more resilience in general.


Mage
-Redesign Arcane Barrage

Really this is 99% of the reason mages are stupid at the moment. Hits WAY too hard for an instant cast with a 3 second cooldown. A spell cannot be balanced around mana cost if the spell is so powerful that it will kill anything long before the mage runs out of mana.


Druid
-Redesign Rend and Tear

It's not difficult for a druid to keep up a single bleed, especially with the Rake buff. Having a virtually 100% crit rate on an ability that scales from 2 different sources and hits extremely hard is obscene.

I think bear damage:survivability is out of whack in pvp, but the level of nerfs this needs if any isn't entirely clear to me. Basically something that needs to be evaluated internally more.


Hunters

Nothing to add here. I think the changes in the upcoming patch will put them in line overall.


Paladins

Can't think of anything specific here. Their damage definitely needs evaluation though.



Again this isn't a comprehensive list, just general direction. I firmly believe that nerfing these class/spec combinations will drastically slow down the game to reasonable levels and fix most of the damage issues.
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#31 Magdain

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 03:13 PM

You never accidently waste time attacking a treant because you think it's a druid and then get hit by a 13k starfire because you picked the wrong one. They are VERY different skills. No one complains about mirror image because of the damage of the images.

As Duckers said, the utility is leaps and bounds ahead of treants.


This is going off on a tangent but should be addressed. Mirror Image isn't good nor leaps and bounds ahead of treants.

The default UI has nameplate coloring. If you turn it on Mirror Image nameplates will be colored red and the actual mage's health will be colored blue.

You can bind "Target Nearest Enemy Player" in the keybindings menu. This functions like default Tab but completely ignores Images/Totems/Pets.

Health numbers are available with the wow api for enemy targets, you can see if your target has low health and tell it's an image.


Those are 3 extremely easy ways to negate Images. The only benefit they have over treants is their stupid random polymorph, but that hurts as often as it helps. I'd rather the obscene damage of treants any day.
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#32 Bailou

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 03:18 PM

People keep saying to remove pve gear for arenas, did you realize that you play an MMO and that it basically means you should have better gear if you spend more time gearing up your character.
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#33 Levidian

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 03:20 PM

Also Gladius/Proximo target based off unique player ids not /target name so you can always target the "real" player.
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#34 royalsego

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 03:23 PM

Do not allow any PvE gear above itemlevel 200 to be used in area.

Deadly Gear = itemlevel 213

This will still allow players to use PvE gear, classes such as rogues and paladins can choose to allocate their item budgeting on the 'offensive' side, but at the cost of 13 itemlevel points.

This can tune down the 'overpowered' PvE gear in the game at the moment, which is causing the massive amounts of damage being put out.

For example: A rogue can still use PvE gear, but it'll be naxx10 items pre-KT. They still gain a lot of 'offensive' stats, at the cost of resilience(which to most rogues aren't much a problem currently). But these offensive stats will not be overly disproportioned compared to their PvP counterparts.

And as each season progresses, you can just raise max itemlevel parallel to the highest arena gear.
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#35 Levidian

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 03:37 PM

^

That's kind of an ignore the problem and not really solve the problem solution wrapped into one idea.
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#36 Dynimight

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 03:51 PM

This is going off on a tangent but should be addressed. Mirror Image isn't good nor leaps and bounds ahead of treants.

The default UI has nameplate coloring. If you turn it on Mirror Image nameplates will be colored red and the actual mage's health will be colored blue.


I definitely didn't know that. Thanks for the heads up.
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you're all subconsciously racists. hunters are fine.


#37 KennyEU

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 04:04 PM

they'd have to display iLvL directly onto their gear for that, and have arena queue-up first do a check on everyone's gear's itemlevels, with an errormessage that you can't join (if any iLvl is too high)

Then after queueing, it somehow has to be made impossible to equip gear of too high ilvl too.
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#38 Vlada

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 04:32 PM

Why would you want to remove PvE gear from arena, some classses will be gimped then. Just force people to use PvP gear by tweaking resilience to work better, making it work on all damage is great way to do that. 50% less damage and 25% less healing is stupid idea because it will bring back double healers and drain comps even more then on 70, and comps like RMP will be dead.
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#39 Levidian

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 04:34 PM

Why would you want to remove PvE gear from arena, some classses will be gimped then. Just force people to use PvP gear by tweaking resilience to work better, making it work on all damage is great way to do that. 50% less damage and 25% less healing is stupid idea because it will bring back double healers and drain comps even more then on 70, and comps like RMP will be dead.


You just said "making it work on all damage is a great way to do that." and then you said "50% less damage and 25% less healing is stupid idea because ...."

You do realize you just contradicted yourself? If you were referring to the actual values it was stated that the proper reductions would have to be tested.
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#40 Vlada

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Posted 24 December 2008 - 04:38 PM

make it 25% cap? 50% less damage is just way too much, also with 25% less healing spells like sacred shield and PWS will be sick, warriors won't get any rage at all vs paladins/priests (not like they are getting now :P)
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