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Mage WotLK Talent Builds


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#1 Tyveris

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 05:27 AM

Hey guys. We need your help. We are going to be updating our talent guides for Wrath and were hoping you could post your planned build for level 80 along with a short description about it. Also, if you have any thoughts on the individual talents, listing those would be helpful as well. Each person will be credited and we will keep track of it with our new contribution system (no details yet).

Thanks in advance for everyone who helps out.

#2 Kolz

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 05:58 AM

20/0/51

This will likely be the cookie cutter frost pvp build. The 20 in arcane are primarily for 12% bonus damage on snared targets with frostbolt from torment of the weak, extra caster lockdown from improved counterspell, and some caster defence from magic absorbtion and arcane subtlety. The extra range on counterspell and polymorph is also quite handy.

The points in frost will net you a 70% snare on cone of cold, which is equal with crippling poison and makes kiting rogues noticeably easier. Some people may wish to pick up brain freeze, I prefer the bonus damage upfront on a shatter combo from arctic winds.

The basis for this spec is attempting to control the opponent until you can set up a "shatter combo". The most basic form of a shatter combo is to start casting a frostbolt, place your water elementals freeze on your target right before the frostbolt finishes, then hitting ice lance just as the frostbolt finishes. Both spells will gain the benefit of the target being frozen (50% crit from shatter, triple damage on ice lance). Using deep freeze, you can either lock someone in line of sight so you can shatter them (it also removes the requirement of having your elemental out, as targets afflicted by deep freeze are considered frozen), or you can extend a shatter combo by replacing the ice lance with a deep freeze, then doing another frostbolt/ice lance combo.

Also note that the best sustained dps that this spec can put out is simply turreting frostbolts into someone with icy veins up, so expect to be trained alot as this spec as people will very much want to prevent that.

2/51/18

The points in frost in this build are primarily to pick up shatter. The reason shatter is so effective in this build is because it can "force" a hot streak proc, which is where fire's true burst comes from. Permafrost is taken so that you can have a cone of cold that snares for longer than its cooldown (11 sec vs 10 sec) and is more powerful than hamstring, as fire doesn't have anywhere near the melee defences frost has.

In fire, living bomb is simply taken because there is nowhere else to put the points -it's reasonably mana efficienct damage and mana is a definite issue as fire. Empowered fire is a point dump, since you will occasionally be using frostfire bolt I picked it up. The cornerstone pvp talents of fire are blazing speed, hot streak and burning detirmination.

Your advantage as fire is less reliance on long cooldowns, more damage under pressure (no reliance on icy veins to get around pet pushback, faster casting spells, more instants) and more mobility. However, you have alot less control and defence than frost. Blast Wave and Dragon's Breath both double as melee defence and caster interrupting, it's important to use them appropriately as the situation calls for. Dragon's breath is also a way to set up burst - similar to deep freeze, you can hold people in line of sight with it to wind up a spell. Fire has it's own form of shatter combos you can attempt, using frostfire bolt and fireblast instead of frostbolt and ice lance since these two critting can proc hot streak. However, keeping someone frozen is always the trick. One possibility (untested yet) is frost novaing someone and then dragon's breathing them. It remains to be seen wether or not it's possible to DB someone who is nova'd without breaking the nova, and if possible, wether it requires the glyph of frost nova.

Arterian said:

mage/rogue is complete opposite of pnad cuz you get raped by awful players all day

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#3 Buckybadger

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 06:07 PM

I agree that 20/0/51 will probably be the way to go, just a few things I would change. I would take arc fort over clearcasting, because I believe our armor has gone down due to no bonus armor anymore, and the extra I would think would help more than 6% chance for free cast.

Also a few things in frost I would change possibly, though its very difficult to choose only 51 pts because I like the frost tree a lot. I would probably put frost channeling in my build at 80, but that is assuming its not the crazy burst fest it was the past few weeks at 70. But if games are going to last longer, 10% efficinency on all casts is very nice.

Also why no brain freeze? Do you anticipate using more ice lances (given that we have crazy amounts of frozen target uptime with FoF and frozen barrier etc) to the point where brain freeze wouldn't be good? I personally enjoy it because if I can get a frostbolt off while its up I can basically shatter since fireball does about crit ice lance dmg (frostbolt doesn't have the high chance to crit also, but still even double non crit its over 4k dmg at 70)

As I said those are things I would want, but its a dilemma because the frost tree has lots of good stuff, i think we will have to see and hopefully it comes down to all the talents being strong and being chosen absed on individual playstyle

#4 Kubuss

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Posted 13 November 2008 - 06:12 PM

no brain freeze is really bad, INSTANT NO MANA COST 2K not suspected burst, how do oyu even skip that

#5 Mwiff

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 05:56 AM

Kubuss said:

no brain freeze is really bad, INSTANT NO MANA COST 2K not suspected burst, how do oyu even skip that

Because it only procs off of Frostbolt/Cone of Cold. Standing damage/burst felt fine at 80 even without Brain Freeze. The primary pull for me was it helped with mobile damage, which is no longer really true. If live feels different than beta, and I want more "oomf" so to speak, I'll probably pick it back up.
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#6 Thricton

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 06:18 AM

Mwiff said:

Because it only procs off of Frostbolt/Cone of Cold. Standing damage/burst felt fine at 80 even without Brain Freeze. The primary pull for me was it helped with mobile damage, which is no longer really true. If live feels different than beta, and I want more "oomf" so to speak, I'll probably pick it back up.

I think that it's very worth it to give up Permafrost for it though, especially with Chilled to the Bone giving an extra 10% to snares.

#7 Perfects

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 07:28 AM

Mwiff said:

Because it only procs off of Frostbolt/Cone of Cold. Standing damage/burst felt fine at 80 even without Brain Freeze. The primary pull for me was it helped with mobile damage, which is no longer really true. If live feels different than beta, and I want more "oomf" so to speak, I'll probably pick it back up.

procs off armor too

#8 Demetrious

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 07:34 AM

Brain freeze over 5/5 arctic winds, no contest.

And Frost Channeling over Permafrost IMO.

#9 Mwiff

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 09:04 AM

Perfects said:

procs off armor too

No it doesn't.
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#10 Kubuss

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 10:21 AM

Mwiff said:

Because it only procs off of Frostbolt/Cone of Cold. Standing damage/burst felt fine at 80 even without Brain Freeze. The primary pull for me was it helped with mobile damage, which is no longer really true. If live feels different than beta, and I want more "oomf" so to speak, I'll probably pick it back up.

You don't make sense. It's HUGEEEE vs rogues after clos is down after the rank 1 nerfs. They can't vanish reliably while the dot is up. Also I don't see how more FREE OF MANA COST burst is bad, the more the better oi.

#11 Mwiff

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 10:58 AM

Kubuss said:

You don't make sense. It's HUGEEEE vs rogues after clos is down after the rank 1 nerfs. They can't vanish reliably while the dot is up. Also I don't see how more FREE OF MANA COST burst is bad, the more the better oi.

Yeah it's nice against rogues. But in order for that to happen, I need the rogue's CoS to be down which is on a one minute cooldown and be lucky enough to get a proc during that time period. So just using this isn't enough to justify the three talent points to me.

I'm not saying that the free mana cost burst is bad per-say. It's just that during my level 80 PvP experience on beta, we do very good standing damage already as a result of Torment of the Weak. The procs also started to come quite a bit less after the change to Brain Freeze in general. So right now, there just isn't enough for me to justify putting the 3 points there.

But I digress, my views were taken from playing the Beta, where many people I played were a few cards short of a full deck if you know what I mean. There were however a couple respected live players that I played against such as Pyrilus. Of course it was his Lock/Pally/Rogue I want to say, maybe Hunter against our Shamman/Mage/Death Knight. Both teams were 2 DPS one healer.

So for right now, I'm not going to go for Brain Freeze, but if I feel that I need more damage on level 80 Live arena, I'll give it a shot again.

Edit: I'd also like to say that my perceptions might be skewed because my framerate/latency to the beta servers was balls awful, but I'm going to wait and see.

Edit 2:
One talent build I am considering
http://www.wowhead.c...ZAIzuofuhfdMbot

Possible Different Arcane Talents
http://www.wowhead.c...talent=ofcbrzMc

Different Frost Talent Variations
http://www.wowhead.c...ZAIzuofu0fdMfot
http://www.wowhead.c...ZAIzuofu0fdMbst
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#12 AlphaNZ

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Posted 14 November 2008 - 11:17 AM

What's the point of having :
1 - Artic winds.
Sure, it's nice. But I prefer dealing 8% less damage and having :
- 10% mana cost to all abilities
- 15% chance to proc a free fireball after a cone of cold / frostbolt.

2 - Spell Impact
Yay, 2 talents points for 4% damage on Ice Lance.
Better to put them in Clearcasting.

Mana is a huge issue at level 80, so you really want to get both clearcasting and Frostchanneling.

My spec would look something like this :
http://www.wowhead.c...ZAI0Gofu0fdMfot

After a few seasons, sure i will put points out of efficiency talents, since we will have more mana to work with.. but untill then..

Oh, and about Brain Freeze :
- Efficient
- Bursty
- There's no Cooldown on the proc.
- Prevents stealthing
- Instant cast, improves mobility.
- 15 seconds duration
- Also acts as a dispell buffer.

I don't see how anyone could justify 3 points in Artic Winds over 3 points in brain freeze.. but maybe it's just me.

#13 Exeon

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Posted 15 November 2008 - 02:13 AM

I see a lot of people putting talent points into Ice Floes and Cold as Ice, but im curious why? How often have you played games where your Ice Block, Icy Veins, or even good ol' Frosty came back off CD after you've used Cold Snap?

This will probably be my spec at 80
17/0/54

I skipped Torment of the Weak because it only effects your casts, and if 80 PvP's like 70 even somewhat getting casts off will be rather rare with us getting trained. Instead I got Elemental Precision/Arctic Winds for increased damage and mana efficiency.

I was not in beta at all so I really am unsure of Arcane's strength at 80 but I will probably be trying it out for 2's with this spec:
51/20/0

Picking up both Torment of the Weak and Imp Scorch to increase damage taken my targets afflicted by both. Prismatic Cloak and Imp Blink for increased defensive measures cause as arcane your rather easy to blow up. All my reasoning behind this spec is from playing arcane at 70 so it will probably change when i get a chance to try it out at 80.

#14 Kolz

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Posted 15 November 2008 - 03:12 PM

Dropping permafrost now that we have chilled for the bone is actually pretty silly. Like before, you could argue either way, now since you can get 70% coc which is equivalent to hunter traps and crippling poison (!!!) I don't see how you could possibly justify not having 3/3 permafrost.

Brain freeze is just personal pref but 15% proc for only about 2k damage off of frostbolts is pretty lol to me (okay yeah, it procs off coc too, but you only use coc for snaring, not damage. There's a reason no one goes 3/3 imp coc). @ it preventing vanishes, 1min cd on cloak and it's an unreliable proc, not worth 3 points imo tbh. Basically it's a proc that slightly increases your burst when standing still which is just meh, even arctic winds for bonus burst on shatters that will always be there is preferable to me over a proc like that in an area where I don't feel we are particularly lacking.

Arctic winds: kinda crappy and yeah I might end up going with frost channeling over it as well

Arcane fortitude: it's a decent talent but i don't really have alot of trouble vs melee at 80 and mana efficiency is honestly more of an issue imo. Also you can kinda abuse clearcasting for more than the 6% mana efficiency it suggests by using it to throw a cone of cold when it procs off an ice lance or whatever, not huge but after the downranking nerf I'll take it.

Cold as ice and ice floes I take for the smaller cd reductions mainly (ice barrier, cone of cold and frost nova), but those points are also pretty malleable. Blizz has done a good job of cutting down the amount of "required" frost talents and giving players alot more choice.

Spell impact: Um fireblast, ice lance, and as a bonus it also works for coc (meh) and fireball if you took brain freeze. What's not to like?

And I'm stressing the permafrost point here. Seriously, you like rogues being able to snare you more than you snare them?

Arterian said:

mage/rogue is complete opposite of pnad cuz you get raped by awful players all day

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#15 Demetrious

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Posted 15 November 2008 - 06:41 PM

Kolenzo said:

Dropping permafrost now that we have chilled for the bone is actually pretty silly. Like before, you could argue either way, now since you can get 70% coc which is equivalent to hunter traps and crippling poison (!!!) I don't see how you could possibly justify not having 3/3 permafrost.

Brain freeze is just personal pref but 15% proc for only about 2k damage off of frostbolts is pretty lol to me (okay yeah, it procs off coc too, but you only use coc for snaring, not damage. There's a reason no one goes 3/3 imp coc). @ it preventing vanishes, 1min cd on cloak and it's an unreliable proc, not worth 3 points imo tbh. Basically it's a proc that slightly increases your burst when standing still which is just meh, even arctic winds for bonus burst on shatters that will always be there is preferable to me over a proc like that in an area where I don't feel we are particularly lacking.

Arctic winds: kinda crappy and yeah I might end up going with frost channeling over it as well

Arcane fortitude: it's a decent talent but i don't really have alot of trouble vs melee at 80 and mana efficiency is honestly more of an issue imo. Also you can kinda abuse clearcasting for more than the 6% mana efficiency it suggests by using it to throw a cone of cold when it procs off an ice lance or whatever, not huge but after the downranking nerf I'll take it.

Cold as ice and ice floes I take for the smaller cd reductions mainly (ice barrier, cone of cold and frost nova), but those points are also pretty malleable. Blizz has done a good job of cutting down the amount of "required" frost talents and giving players alot more choice.

Spell impact: Um fireblast, ice lance, and as a bonus it also works for coc (meh) and fireball if you took brain freeze. What's not to like?

And I'm stressing the permafrost point here. Seriously, you like rogues being able to snare you more than you snare them?

I'm going to skip the Brain Freeze thing because I think you're fighting what's essentially a unanimous opinion.  You can never have too much burst, and it's free.  There's nothing even remotely comparable that you could get for 3 talent points that you wouldn't already have in a standard frost spec.

I can't understand why you're all over permafrost.  It's completely pointless against anything but rogues, because you're not going to need the talent against anyone else, assuming that you're OK with blowing 1k mana to CoC kite them in the first place. You're going to spend 3 talent points just to not move 10% slower than a shadowdance rogue, again assuming that you can blow the 1k mana to try to snare them.  10%.  That's not going to magically allow you to kite them, they're just going to pop one of their dozen CDs or get a simple dispel/cleanse and now you're down 1k mana and still taking damage.

Not to sound like a dick, but you are SERIOUSLY overthinking your spec.  Ice Floes being malleable?  Those are pretty much the most ironclad points you could possibly invest in frost, next to improved frostbolt.  Speccing your Mage is not about being a pretty, original, unique flower.  There's a reason there was only one or two mage specs that were used, at all, through all of TBC.  Stop thinking so hard and focus your attention elsewhere.

#16 AlphaNZ

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 10:25 AM

Permafrost means Ice Armor is as strong as Hamstring.

#17 Demetrious

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Posted 16 November 2008 - 05:35 PM

AlphaNZ said:

Permafrost means Ice Armor is as strong as Hamstring.

Warriors are already a joke to kite with your existing tools unless they get freedom,  bladestorm or massive dispels, none of which permafrost will help you with.  Warriors aren't seriously going to try to kill you outside of a handful of times except in 5v5, where entirely different rules apply depending on comp etc.

#18 Kubuss

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 05:07 PM

http://www.wowhead.c...ZAI0Iobu0fdrfot

#19 Buckybadger

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Posted 17 November 2008 - 05:41 PM

7/13/51

http://talent.mmo-ch...ph=000000000000

The frost talents you could move around because I am guessing about a few things at this point, but if mana efficiency is the same frost channeling is great. I will give some pros and cons to this build:

Pros: Magic absorbtion, burning determination, impact, deep freeze
Cons: No imp counterspell, no torment of the weak, misses some very good frost talents

However the utility you get out of the 20 pts in arcane and fire are very strong imo. Impact could be the new mace stun, having a 20% chance to stun someone on a shatter? Then deep freezing them for some more ice lance spam, its just ridiculous the kind of control you could have.

What do you guys think?

#20 Mwiff

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 05:01 AM

Buckybadger said:

7/13/51

http://talent.mmo-ch...ph=000000000000

The frost talents you could move around because I am guessing about a few things at this point, but if mana efficiency is the same frost channeling is great. I will give some pros and cons to this build:

Pros: Magic absorbtion, burning determination, impact, deep freeze
Cons: No imp counterspell, no torment of the weak, misses some very good frost talents

However the utility you get out of the 20 pts in arcane and fire are very strong imo. Impact could be the new mace stun, having a 20% chance to stun someone on a shatter? Then deep freezing them for some more ice lance spam, its just ridiculous the kind of control you could have.

What do you guys think?

You're losing a ton of damage from not getting Torment of The Weak. Impact is going to put your Deep Freeze on DR very quickly. Burning Determination is meh. The easiest situation to get chain interrupted in is by an Enhancement Shaman. Even then with the help of fake casting and your partners, it should not be hard to get casts off.

The question anymore for an arena frost build isn't how many points to allocate in what tree. It's where to allocate said points. 20/0/51 or bust
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