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#21 Konjunktur

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Posted 15 July 2017 - 12:41 AM

separate lines, separate arguments :)

 

although presumably those people who want to get an alt to max level and then forget that other aspects of this game exist outside of arena are having the time of their lives this expansion? ;)

Time of their life, fo sho ;)


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#22 Hollowinside

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Posted 15 July 2017 - 02:33 PM

an mmo requiring farming, how disgusting :)

You totally missed his point though. It wasn't about the farming. It was about needing to do PvE related stuff in order to succeed at PvP, which was, well... not smart. Super childish example incoming: Why should I be forced into water bending when I want to become a fire bender?

Usually the people who did PvP back then were not happy to engage in PvE activity, yet the game had made it so it was mandatory back then. This is what he/she was trying to say.


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Because the random name generator might pump out Lortfanden, which sounds like a pretty generic fantasy Warrior name in English, until you realize it means "Shit Fuck" in Danish.

#23 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 15 July 2017 - 07:02 PM

You totally missed his point though. It wasn't about the farming. It was about needing to do PvE related stuff in order to succeed at PvP, which was, well... not smart. Super childish example incoming: Why should I be forced into water bending when I want to become a fire bender?

Usually the people who did PvP back then were not happy to engage in PvE activity, yet the game had made it so it was mandatory back then. This is what he/she was trying to say.

the only time in this game's history that pve gear has been "needed to succeed" was season 11 rbgs, and even that was only due to how disgusting dragonsoul weapons/trinkets were for warlock/boomkin/firemage/spriest cleave teams

 

don't confuse "pve gear makes you do slightly more damage" with "automatically lose if you queue in full pvp gear"

 

also I have no idea why you think people who did pvp in previous expansions hated pve, most people who played the game back then did not choose to shackle themselves to one single aspect of it :)


Edited by Dizzeeyo, 15 July 2017 - 07:09 PM.

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No because the difference is when I play a comp i play it close to skill cap

if anyone needs to be banned, it's you. You do nothing but sit on AJ being a passive aggressive idiot that nobody likes, sorry you stink of washing up liquid.

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)


#24 Konjunktur

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 02:54 AM

the only time in this game's history that pve gear has been "needed to succeed" was season 11 rbgs, and even that was only due to how disgusting dragonsoul weapons/trinkets were for warlock/boomkin/firemage/spriest cleave teams

 

don't confuse "pve gear makes you do slightly more damage" with "automatically lose if you queue in full pvp gear"

 

also I have no idea why you think people who did pvp in previous expansions hated pve, most people who played the game back then did not choose to shackle themselves to one single aspect of it :)

I have no idea why you think you know what most people who played the game back then enjoyed to do and didn't. Unless you're highly schizophrenic you are only one person and not a mind reader as far as I'm aware :)

 

Considering pretty much everyone I knew at the time couldn't even try to get the PvE items due to irl constraints we weren't particularly happy about them. Not everyone is a nolifer who has the time to raid 3 days a week and play competitive pvp the rest of them. Those people still want to be competitive in an area of the game that's completely separate to raiding, ie pvp.

 

Oh and don't act like not having Heroic DFO, Legendary Daggers, Vial pre-nerf, Cunning, Deathbringer's Will, Shadowmourne, Bauble, Solace, Unheeded Warning, Tarecgosa, Warglaives, T6, Grim Toll, Death's Verdict etc wasn't a massive disadvantage over those who didn't have it in arena.


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#25 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 10:00 AM

I have no idea why you think you know what most people who played the game back then enjoyed to do and didn't...Considering pretty much everyone I knew at the time couldn't even try to get the PvE items due to irl constraints we weren't particularly happy about them

so i'm not allowed to make points based on the people i knew in tbc/wotlk/cata, but everyone else is? seems fair :)

 

what I do remember is actual pvp guilds doing 2 hour weekly clears of piss easy raids like Nax, ToC normal, ICC normal to farm items for people who wanted them - and if you desperately wanted heroic versions of ToC/ICC gear, then GDKP runs were popular on all the big servers once raids had been live for a while


Edited by Dizzeeyo, 16 July 2017 - 10:17 AM.

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No because the difference is when I play a comp i play it close to skill cap

if anyone needs to be banned, it's you. You do nothing but sit on AJ being a passive aggressive idiot that nobody likes, sorry you stink of washing up liquid.

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)


#26 Forumz

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 10:17 AM

Why are you in general in favor of that type of templates? 

 

It gives a false sense of customization. The people that understand the game and know their class they will run 99% of them the same stat weigths. Its only a noob trap. 

Even -if- that were the case, that's also important in a game. There needs to be stuff that even the worst of players can learn and improve on. If you're new to the game you're gonna stack up on stamina because how can you lose if you have tons of health? And then you learn that stacking stamina is not actually good because you need to be able to do damage.

 

Simple things like that also need to exist.


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#27 Jim_Jim

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 11:02 AM

If you're new to the game you're gonna stack up on stamina because how can you lose if you have tons of health? And then you learn that stacking stamina is not actually good because you need to be able to do damage.

 

 

Unless you were playing a protoheal paladin in S6.


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#28 Angrypiexx

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 12:37 PM

Just take a second to imagine if droonx ran wow pvp. Just imagine what a circus that would be. The funniest part would be the patch notes.

you are by far the most toxic idiot i have ever seen. You must have a pretty garbage life... feel sorry for you


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#29 Konjunktur

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 03:57 PM

so i'm not allowed to make points based on the people i knew in tbc/wotlk/cata, but everyone else is? seems fair :)

 

what I do remember is actual pvp guilds doing 2 hour weekly clears of piss easy raids like Nax, ToC normal, ICC normal to farm items for people who wanted them - and if you desperately wanted heroic versions of ToC/ICC gear, then GDKP runs were popular on all the big servers once raids had been live for a while

No it's perfectly fine for you to make points based on the people you knew in tbc/wotlk/cata, but unless you knew most pvpers in wotlk/cata/tbc that's not what you did.

 

Also I can see you're glad from those days, which means that most likely your friends and you were fairly hardcore at the time - most people arn't, so your circle of friends isn't really representative of the entire PvP playerbase.

 

Just because some PvPers did run PvE doesn't mean that's what most PvPers actually wanted to do. The forums and basically everywhere you went was just a massive complaint about OP, practically mandatory, PvE gear in PvP (all the way from TBC to mid MoP), you can't argue against this.

 

I'd say its far closer to the truth to claim that the "average" opinion of the PvP playerbase is and has pretty much always been that PvE gear should have no place in PvP (at least not as BiS), than the opposite. You're obviously free to disagree with the "average" opinion, but I believe the "solution" to these kind of non-gameplay related issues should fall closer to the average opinion than the fringe opinion(s).

 

Lastly, can we please just stop this passive aggressive nonsense and just have a normal discussion without the smilies and negative connotations? Seriously, it's much nicer to just have a regular non AJ-aggressive discussion. 


Edited by Konjunktur, 16 July 2017 - 04:26 PM.

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#30 Melaniatrump

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 04:48 PM

you are by far the most toxic idiot i have ever seen. You must have a pretty garbage life... feel sorry for you


What the fuck? I love droonx posts and my comment was more or less saying "it would be fun" you know like...a circus? Find it hilarious you call me the most toxic poster followed by probably the most toxic post I have read in a while.
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#31 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 04:48 PM

I'd say its far closer to the truth to claim that the "average" opinion of the PvP playerbase is and has pretty much always been that PvE gear should have no place in PvP (at least not as BiS), than the opposite. You're obviously free to disagree with the "average" opinion, but I believe the "solution" to these kind of non-gameplay related issues should fall closer to the average opinion than the fringe opinion(s)

balancing around views of average pvp players gave us wod and legion pvp, making gear irrelevant in pvp contributed towards legion pvp participation falling faster then legion wow pvp tournament viewing figures

 

I don't know, personally the game felt better when individual characters required time investment beyond just leveling them to max and afking through some bgs, vs now where we are beyond even that with character boosts, everyone having alts of every single class and arena being a huge exercise in counter comping


Edited by Dizzeeyo, 16 July 2017 - 05:12 PM.

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No because the difference is when I play a comp i play it close to skill cap

if anyone needs to be banned, it's you. You do nothing but sit on AJ being a passive aggressive idiot that nobody likes, sorry you stink of washing up liquid.

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)


#32 Konjunktur

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 05:14 PM

balancing around views of average pvp players gave us wod and legion pvp, making gear irrelevant in pvp contributed towards legion pvp participation falling faster then wow pvp tournament viewing figures

Average PvP players didn't want gear to be taken out of PvP, and even so it didn't neccesarily contribute to the falling participations. PvP Gear farm being replaced with Artfact farm however did.

 

Also, WoD had the best gearing system to date. The problem with WoD was PvP gameplay (not gearing), which I specifically excluded from my statement.

 

Balancing and class design should always be done around the top so that it's always an issue of "git guud" when someone complains about balance/class design. The equivalent argument, "farm PvE harder", doesnt sound as convincing when used about farming PvE dungeons that have nothing to do with PvP in order to increase your success in PvP.

 

Lastly, the reason Legion failed is just further PvP gameplay issues and the endless AP farm (which basically replaced gear farming). Since earning AP is basically a PvE farm, which you are arguing for, I guess you don't see any problems with it?


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#33 RippedLife

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 10:23 PM

idk why they didn't massively increase AP gain from 1500+ arena, would make participation skyrocket like crazy and maybe some people stick around and try harder


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#34 Hollowinside

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 08:20 AM

the only time in this game's history that pve gear has been "needed to succeed" was season 11 rbgs, and even that was only due to how disgusting dragonsoul weapons/trinkets were for warlock/boomkin/firemage/spriest cleave teams

 

don't confuse "pve gear makes you do slightly more damage" with "automatically lose if you queue in full pvp gear"

 

also I have no idea why you think people who did pvp in previous expansions hated pve, most people who played the game back then did not choose to shackle themselves to one single aspect of it :)

Lol. Not even close.

1) PvE was necessary in PvP even in the arena aspect of S11, not only in RBGs. And many times it was, in fact, the different between winning and losing (eg when facing Mirror comps with Heroic DS Weapons/Trinkets). PvE trinkets also played a very important role in S13 during MoP and I heard that in S8 of WotLK 1/2 of the player's gear had to be PvE anyway (I think I was told they were playing with ~600 Resillience?).

2) Lock/Boomie/Fire Mage/Spriest? Is this all you remember? What about Feral/Rogue Vial of Shadows, especially pre-nerf? What about Rogue legendary daggers? What about Uh DKs with Heroic Gurthalak and Ret with 2-piece set bonus and/or Heroic Creche of Final Dragon/Eye of Unmaking? What about the PvE Timelord's set pieces on Frost Mages? And the list goes on and on (Enhance having those axes that dropped from Deathwing, then MM Hunters etc etc etc).

3) I never said people who were PvPing back then hated PvE. I just said that this should not be the way for any player to be fully competitive in PvP, in any game we might talk about. Forcing players to do PvE so they can maximize their output in a completely different aspect of the game is neither a good nor a wise game design.


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Because the random name generator might pump out Lortfanden, which sounds like a pretty generic fantasy Warrior name in English, until you realize it means "Shit Fuck" in Danish.

#35 Nexxer

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 09:16 AM

People seem to have forgotten that they are playing an MMORPG. :)

 

The "endless" AP farm, consists of doing every ap world quest on the map for around 1.5weeks, which takes ~45mins a day. That will get you to 52 and as far as I'm aware concordance proc and scaling is severely reduced in pvp anyway.

 

 

Fun-fact: Some classes that favor versatility over other stats in pve would have to do high rated pvp to get high ilvl parts with versatility on it, so in a way you are forced to pvp if you pve =)


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#36 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 03:02 PM

Lol. Not even close.

while i've always admired your enthusiasm, it feels like a waste of time for me to discuss this with you if your response is always going to be "i didn't play then, but i've heard it wasn't like that"

 

i'm not arguing that pve gear was not helpful, but teams were getting glad in tbc and wotlk and cata with zero pve gear, therefore pve gear was not "required" or "necessary" to succeed

 

Average PvP players didn't want gear to be taken out of PvP

my mistake then, i thought the average player had been asking for gear not to matter in pvp since tbc


Edited by Dizzeeyo, 18 July 2017 - 03:12 PM.

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No because the difference is when I play a comp i play it close to skill cap

if anyone needs to be banned, it's you. You do nothing but sit on AJ being a passive aggressive idiot that nobody likes, sorry you stink of washing up liquid.

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)


#37 Konjunktur

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 03:26 PM

People seem to have forgotten that they are playing an MMORPG. :)

 

The "endless" AP farm, consists of doing every ap world quest on the map for around 1.5weeks, which takes ~45mins a day. That will get you to 52 and as far as I'm aware concordance proc and scaling is severely reduced in pvp anyway.

 

 

Fun-fact: Some classes that favor versatility over other stats in pve would have to do high rated pvp to get high ilvl parts with versatility on it, so in a way you are forced to pvp if you pve =)

And what an MMORPG is, is obviously set in stone right? Given that WoW is the biggest in the category and by far the most successful one. It sets the bar for what's an okay farm.

 

The "endless" farm does not end at 52, even if concordance is nerfed by 50% in PvP the difference between 52 and 60 is huge. Just because most people cba farming more than 52 (understandably) doesn't mean there isn't a significant difference between 52 and 60.

 

Additionally, this is only a hotfix they added in this patch (ak40), next patch when they add more traits (or some people just have really high concordance) we're back to square one having huge imbalances due to PvE farm.

 

Fun fact: PvP gear is not target-able, no PvEr actually tries to get PvP gear - that's a strawman. Plus the upgrades are extremely minor (only pure minor stat upgrades), unlike traits (insane proc). Also set bonuses & item effects for the most part makes it so: PvE gear > PvP gear.


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#38 Jim_Jim

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 03:59 PM

i'm not arguing that pve gear was not helpful, but teams were getting glad in tbc and wotlk and cata with zero pve gear, therefore pve gear was not "required" or "necessary" to succeed

 

 

Of course people succeeded without PvE gear, but in my opinion, that doesn't made this as a counter argument. First of all, the mentality was waaaaaaay different back then. People were not as... fotm as now, first because it wasn't that "instant" to level up and geared a character, and most of the time, the classes which didn't need Pve gear was the already broken spec (Rogue in S11 is the best example.).

Put actual people in Cata, everyone of us will try to have PvE gear, everyone. And everyone will play the best class, as opposed to before where people sticked to their main most of the time.

 

I think being able to PvE to maximise a character is a good thing actually. As long as it comes with some disavantages with it. Like trading a bit a resilience (Wotlk), to have more stats, so you can make a mix of both of the stuff (Saying "Ok, i'll heal more, but i will be more vulnerable"). Of course there will be some OP things, like someone said before, some mages were full PvE gear, but mostly because the spec was already squishy (The last time they had some real counters) so why the fuck wearing resilience?

 

As long as this is not "There is no counterpart of wearing PvE stuff" like the end of S8 (With Shadowmourne and most trinkets), or S11 (With Gurthalak and other wonderful things. - Never said it was unfun, just... unfair. -).

 

Isn't warrior the "Only viable with Gurthalak" class in season 11?


Edited by Jim_Jim, 18 July 2017 - 04:00 PM.

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#39 Konjunktur

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 04:01 PM

i'm not arguing that pve gear was not helpful, but teams were getting glad in tbc and wotlk and cata with zero pve gear, therefore pve gear was not "required" or "necessary" to succeed

 

It was "required" and highly "necessary" to 'succeed' and climb higher. You basically gained 100-400 rating based on your PvE gear at times, just because some players with a true skill level far above glad were able to get glad without it doesn't mean it wasn't extremely OP and basically mandatory for anyone pushing rating. It's the same as saying "I can get 2k with no traits and no gear - that means traits and gear isn't mandatory!" No it doesn't, because I'm far above 2k skill level, someone with a true skill level of 2k wouldn't be able to do that. 

 

Similar example: Some people keep getting r1 even when their specs are dogshit, does that mean that the specs are not bad? Because it's possible to get r1 with them? No, it doesn't. It just means those people are beyond r1 skill.

 

my mistake then, i thought the average player had been asking for gear not to matter in pvp since tbc

Maybe you're blind then, because I sure didn't see any gearing complaints in WoD or late MoP (after catchup) from the plebs. The only ones complaining were a small minority of people arguing "buuuut I shouuuld be better becauseee I have time to raiid aaaand pvp" and the other non-argument "fuuuuuck alts".

 

The average PvPer was perfectly fine with WoD gearing, at which point gear basically didn't matter (because it was so easy to get) and gear gained from PvP was BiS for PvP. I'll repeat myself: The problem with WoD PvP was class design, not gearing.


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#40 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 04:11 PM

First of all, the mentality was waaaaaaay different back then. People were not as... fotm as now, first because it wasn't that "instant" to level up and geared a character, and most of the time, the classes which didn't need Pve gear was the already broken spec (Rogue in S11 is the best example.).

Put actual people in Cata, everyone of us will try to have PvE gear, everyone. And everyone will play the best class, as opposed to before where people sticked to their main most of the time.

 

I think being able to PvE to maximise a character is a good thing actually. As long as it comes with some disavantages with it. Like trading a bit a resilience (Wotlk), to have more stats, so you can make a mix of both of the stuff (Saying "Ok, i'll heal more, but i will be more vulnerable").

it feels nice to agree with you occasionally :)


Edited by Dizzeeyo, 18 July 2017 - 04:17 PM.

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No because the difference is when I play a comp i play it close to skill cap

if anyone needs to be banned, it's you. You do nothing but sit on AJ being a passive aggressive idiot that nobody likes, sorry you stink of washing up liquid.

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)






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