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PVPing as Unholy Just feels BAD


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#41 Fennixqt

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Posted 08 November 2016 - 03:25 PM

Feel like Cropse Shelid was the only thing keeping it at the level, now you actually get trained.


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#42 Ownu

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 06:14 AM

the global cooldown thing makes it feel really funky


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#43 Warmonger_Skulm

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 12:51 PM

Did anyone compare them after the 10% str frost nerf ? I was playing yesterday as frost and still felt like doing easy damage tbh.


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#44 Jim_Jim

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 02:29 PM

Even nerfed, frost dk deal more damage than unholy but more important, their damage are effective and instantly applied.
UH's damage constant damage are mediocre because they need to build it, and because of the atrocious mobility of the class, they have good tools to be disruptive but most of the time it's only for crawling back to your target and losing this precious time of cc.

Crypt fever make them look good damage wise but only against druid and monk. And both of them have hot which covers easily the damage. And it breaks cc's.
Their only dot is a miserable damage spell which can be outheal by a renew from a holy priest (Worst healer). Some classes can do bigger dot passively (Assa rogue) or can do their old role (Spread pressure) with more assist/mobility (Feral).
Their only mobility spell is a channelled one which have a huge cd and you can't do damage during it.
Their slow is not a passive one like rogue or feral, cost a important ressource for damage.
At the beginnong of Legion they were quite resilient thanks to the infinite summon of ghoul to maintain Corpse shield (One macro and 2 talents to make this talent worth) and during this time, your pet was half worthless. Now Blizzard have "fixed" it and you can't "abuse" it anymore.

If you manage to hit someone as uh dk, of course you deal good damage and pressure. But everyone have multiples slow and mobility spells to only be at 5y and fuck 80% of your already average damage.
Death coil, the rp spender hit for 30k, the gargoyle which used to be a threat cost a gcd and hit for less than a death coil, and the ghoul stun is a 1s stun for 1min CD.

I think the saddest part of all this is that they have no niche at all. You can't say "I'm playing with uh because of...". More "I'm playing with him because he wants his 10 games".

Uh dk need desecration back.
SV hunter have a desecration like spell who last as long as you stay on it, and even when you leave the area.

Frost dk are still better than uh damage wise, while being easier to play to do their role (damage).

 

UH DK are like this : 

walking-dead-gif.gif?w=620&h=260&crop=1


Edited by Jim_Jim, 17 November 2016 - 04:39 PM.

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#45 moneky

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 02:44 PM

the global cooldown thing makes it feel really funky

 

THIS TIMES A HUNDRED


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#46 Warmonger_Skulm

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 05:48 PM

Even nerfed, frost dk deal more damage than unholy but more important, their damage are effective and instantly applied.
UH's damage constant damage are mediocre because they need to build it, and because of the atrocious mobility of the class, they have good tools to be disruptive but most of the time it's only for crawling back to your target and losing this precious time of cc.

Crypt fever make them look good damage wise but only against druid and monk. And both of them have hot which covers easily the damage. And it breaks cc's.
Their only dot is a miserable damage spell which can be outheal by a renew from a holy priest (Worst healer). Some classes can do bigger dot passively (Assa rogue) or can do their old role (Spread pressure) with more assist/mobility (Feral).
Their only mobility spell is a channelled one which have a huge cd and you can't do damage during it.
Their slow is not a passive one like rogue or feral, cost a important ressource for damage.
At the beginnong of Legion they were quite resilient thanks to the infinite summon of ghoul to maintain Corpse shield (One macro and 2 talents to make this talent worth) and during this time, your pet was half worthless. Now Blizzard have "fixed" it and you can't "abuse" it anymore.

If you manage to hit someone as uh dk, of course you deal good damage and pressure. But everyone have multiples slow and mobility spells to only be at 5y and fuck 80% of your already average damage.
Death coil, the rp spender hit for 30k, the gargoyle which used to be a threat cost a gcd and hit for less than a death coil, and the ghoul stun is a 1s stun for 1min CD.

I think the saddest part of all this is that they have no niche at all. You can't say "I'm playing with uh because of...". More "I'm playing with him because he wants his 10 games".

Uh dk need desecration back.
SV hunter have a desecration like spell who last as long as you stay on it, and even when you leave the area.

Frost dk are still better than uh damage wise, while being easier to play to do their role (damage).

 

UH DK are like this : 

walking-dead-gif.gif?w=620&h=260&crop=1

 

Well thank you for taking your time to explain the issue. I must say that I agree, the payoff of going unholy is not worth it when compared to the payoff of going frost for very obvious reasons.


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#47 Covlol

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 06:11 PM

Atleast frost is fun, unlike other seasons where we were forced to it.
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#48 Warmonger_Skulm

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 01:51 AM

What do you guys think about its effectiveness vs caster comps though ? Since the spec lacks mobility, and after the second 10% str nerf, I think it will be harder for a frost dk to get that damage going on ranged castercomps because the dmg output in the connection time will be lesser = which will mean casters will live longer = more cc, more survival for them.


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#49 Fennixqt

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 02:26 AM

Even nerfed, frost dk deal more damage than unholy but more important, their damage are effective and instantly applied.
UH's damage constant damage are mediocre because they need to build it, and because of the atrocious mobility of the class, they have good tools to be disruptive but most of the time it's only for crawling back to your target and losing this precious time of cc.

Crypt fever make them look good damage wise but only against druid and monk. And both of them have hot which covers easily the damage. And it breaks cc's.
Their only dot is a miserable damage spell which can be outheal by a renew from a holy priest (Worst healer). Some classes can do bigger dot passively (Assa rogue) or can do their old role (Spread pressure) with more assist/mobility (Feral).
Their only mobility spell is a channelled one which have a huge cd and you can't do damage during it.
Their slow is not a passive one like rogue or feral, cost a important ressource for damage.
At the beginnong of Legion they were quite resilient thanks to the infinite summon of ghoul to maintain Corpse shield (One macro and 2 talents to make this talent worth) and during this time, your pet was half worthless. Now Blizzard have "fixed" it and you can't "abuse" it anymore.

If you manage to hit someone as uh dk, of course you deal good damage and pressure. But everyone have multiples slow and mobility spells to only be at 5y and fuck 80% of your already average damage.
Death coil, the rp spender hit for 30k, the gargoyle which used to be a threat cost a gcd and hit for less than a death coil, and the ghoul stun is a 1s stun for 1min CD.

I think the saddest part of all this is that they have no niche at all. You can't say "I'm playing with uh because of...". More "I'm playing with him because he wants his 10 games".

Uh dk need desecration back.
SV hunter have a desecration like spell who last as long as you stay on it, and even when you leave the area.

Frost dk are still better than uh damage wise, while being easier to play to do their role (damage).

 

UH DK are like this : 

walking-dead-gif.gif?w=620&h=260&crop=1

 

After only playing uh in legion so far up to 2.9 mmr I can for sure agree and try to add up even more.

I really want to say how there is still hope for UH outside wwdk giving me the feeling uh tsg, phdk or scleave (myb not scleave) could actually be t1 comps, but I still can't say for sure is it just my desperate attempt to not play the most disgusting spec in the game (frost dk) or I just need to try more and figure out stuff, we will see.

 

Lego.

Taking Strangulate out of UH is probably one of the worst ideas, this spell was solely in some cases the reason you would give DK a chance to play with you. But now with Asphyxiate on 20y range and literally every class having a stun puts it in a position where if I was not playing tsg I would even dare to take the pet with a hook just for the troll for a bit (it is also usless). I also believe giving UH strangulate (on 1min cd) back could potentially open a spot in some comps or make current ones more viable. At the moment, feels really good to use the shittiest mobility spell on 45sec cd just to Asphyxiate a max ranged target and then enjoy spamming Dog Coils for 20k.

 

Chains of Ice, which use to be the game breaker back in wrath, now in most cases outside of chaining priest  before he goes for the fear (like u ever see a priest in 3s? lul), feels like a painful waist of gcd and runes while other classes are leaping, blinking, charging, freedoming out of it or just pressing their "w" button not even caring about it. Sure they give you 10% RP, which you use for what, death coil? I am close to unbinding death coil I swear. DK was designed as a slow class, ok we get it, but it was also designed with desecration in mind making enemy movement equalized to yours, forcing movement cds (yes those existed) and punishing others for being close.

I could write whole day about it, but I do not have the time now and I think JimJim said enough also. Reather I will take a moment and at least say one positive thing about UH and where I see a chance. I didn't play uh wwdk outside of very low mmr on alts so I can't say, but I think uh tsg and surv phdk with rdruid or maybe even pally looks very promising. The difference I feel from frost is that as frost some games you just win by default, but you also lose some games by default, while with unholy I yet didn't face a hard cunter (outside of ele pre-nerf) and it gives me a feeling like you have a decent chance vs. anything so far.

Good thing about UH is that in some games playing around your pet interupt can actually be very rewarding, unless its dead or novad (kappa) but indeed making it interesting to reposition your pet at smart places and catch others ofguard. Connecting on the target with asphix and stacking necros provides more effective chasing and opens up split strats.

Cropse Shelid can be good sometimes, just sometimes, u still need to send your pet in africa or play a special talent for it be worth.

 

this or that way, I think uh still has some space but mostly if you look at above picture, ye thats me playing uh, where did u find my pic or does volko look the same these days


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#50 Fennixqt

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 02:48 AM

What do you guys think about its effectiveness vs caster comps though ? Since the spec lacks mobility, and after the second 10% str nerf, I think it will be harder for a frost dk to get that damage going on ranged castercomps because the dmg output in the connection time will be lesser = which will mean casters will live longer = more cc, more survival for them.

I would actually disagree and say that frost dks have a slight advantage over uh vs. caster comps taking into consideration that you can't put all casters in the same bag. Yes you have less time connecting on them, but you still provide a huge amount of damage every time you connect unlike unholy. You can also run Heartstop and Dilirium vs. mages punishing their offensive blinks, while having ams which removes everything giving you more chance to counter pressure. Also sitting on shadow priests and locks as frost is still better and easier due the damage you provide, even with the nerf.

 

 

the only advantage uh has is cropse shelid which can save you vs. high burst setups and 2 range kicks which you have to manage all the time. I see unholy being competitve with frost vs. caster comps on higher level matchups where people know very well how to play around frost cds.


Edited by Fennixqt, 18 November 2016 - 02:50 AM.

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#51 Warmonger_Skulm

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 11:55 AM

After only playing uh in legion so far up to 2.9 mmr I can for sure agree and try to add up even more.

I really want to say how there is still hope for UH outside wwdk giving me the feeling uh tsg, phdk or scleave (myb not scleave) could actually be t1 comps, but I still can't say for sure is it just my desperate attempt to not play the most disgusting spec in the game (frost dk) or I just need to try more and figure out stuff, we will see.

 

Lego.

Taking Strangulate out of UH is probably one of the worst ideas, this spell was solely in some cases the reason you would give DK a chance to play with you. But now with Asphyxiate on 20y range and literally every class having a stun puts it in a position where if I was not playing tsg I would even dare to take the pet with a hook just for the troll for a bit (it is also usless). I also believe giving UH strangulate (on 1min cd) back could potentially open a spot in some comps or make current ones more viable. At the moment, feels really good to use the shittiest mobility spell on 45sec cd just to Asphyxiate a max ranged target and then enjoy spamming Dog Coils for 20k.

 

Chains of Ice, which use to be the game breaker back in wrath, now in most cases outside of chaining priest  before he goes for the fear (like u ever see a priest in 3s? lul), feels like a painful waist of gcd and runes while other classes are leaping, blinking, charging, freedoming out of it or just pressing their "w" button not even caring about it. Sure they give you 10% RP, which you use for what, death coil? I am close to unbinding death coil I swear. DK was designed as a slow class, ok we get it, but it was also designed with desecration in mind making enemy movement equalized to yours, forcing movement cds (yes those existed) and punishing others for being close.

I could write whole day about it, but I do not have the time now and I think JimJim said enough also. Reather I will take a moment and at least say one positive thing about UH and where I see a chance. I didn't play uh wwdk outside of very low mmr on alts so I can't say, but I think uh tsg and surv phdk with rdruid or maybe even pally looks very promising. The difference I feel from frost is that as frost some games you just win by default, but you also lose some games by default, while with unholy I yet didn't face a hard cunter (outside of ele pre-nerf) and it gives me a feeling like you have a decent chance vs. anything so far.

Good thing about UH is that in some games playing around your pet interupt can actually be very rewarding, unless its dead or novad (kappa) but indeed making it interesting to reposition your pet at smart places and catch others ofguard. Connecting on the target with asphix and stacking necros provides more effective chasing and opens up split strats.

Cropse Shelid can be good sometimes, just sometimes, u still need to send your pet in africa or play a special talent for it be worth.

 

this or that way, I think uh still has some space but mostly if you look at above picture, ye thats me playing uh, where did u find my pic or does volko look the same these days

 

Thanks a lot for the input, well said.


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#52 Warmonger_Skulm

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 12:04 PM

I would actually disagree and say that frost dks have a slight advantage over uh vs. caster comps taking into consideration that you can't put all casters in the same bag. Yes you have less time connecting on them, but you still provide a huge amount of damage every time you connect unlike unholy. You can also run Heartstop and Dilirium vs. mages punishing their offensive blinks, while having ams which removes everything giving you more chance to counter pressure. Also sitting on shadow priests and locks as frost is still better and easier due the damage you provide, even with the nerf.

 

 

the only advantage uh has is cropse shelid which can save you vs. high burst setups and 2 range kicks which you have to manage all the time. I see unholy being competitve with frost vs. caster comps on higher level matchups where people know very well how to play around frost cds.

 

Your second paragraph relates more with what I've said I believe. I wanted to say that UH has "All Will Serve, Dot, pet, gargoyle etc" which are ranged basically. You will most likely say that their damage is nothing [hence I was even scared to put death coil there] but I believe they are still more useful against caster comps simply because they connect with the target.

 

Frost, on the other hand, punishes the target more IF it can connect. I believe you agreed with me at your second paragraph when you stated that vs high-skilled caster comps, frost will most likely be outplayed.

 

I am just trying to get out of the box, obviously Frost is utilizing the obliteration spec or the breath spec in arena these days. Actually with unholy, you have more options, but the thing is unholy is not as punishing as frost, and I don't mean about connecting on the target, I mean about the general pressure it provides.

 

So, frost with obliteration spec, vs a skilled mage-lock-healer comp, is doomed to go crazy I believe. What a frost dk can do to customize against that comp would probably be trying out the increased howling blast damage, delirium, heartstop as previously mentioned. Personally speaking, I just don't see any other way.


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#53 Jim_Jim

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 04:08 PM

this or that way, I think uh still has some space but mostly if you look at above picture, ye thats me playing uh, where did u find my pic or does volko look the same these days

 

 

He always start quite happy when he logs in, optimistic but then he saw that :

Rogue have a passive slow, a passive MS, good constant damage, and 100x more mobility thanks to a talent that every UH dreamed of : http://www.wowhead.c...ut-to-the-chase

Feral are... well, less resistant, but way more mobile while having dots that makes your disease look like anything but a disease.

Enhancement have good constant damage while bringing purge, bl.

WW are... OP everywhere but constant damage.

Ret paladin always had less damage than DK but more burst and more assist tools. Now they have more damage, AND more burst, ANd more assist tools.

...

...

 

"I can bring you AMZ !"

"Well, frost DK too, and he has as much root as a frost mage :("

 

So he ends his day like this :

 

tumblr_inline_niar177kdp1qh9ez6.png

 

DK's damage wouldn't be average if they weren't so vulnerable to the millions slows and sprint spell every classes have.

 

Bring back Death Advance (But cannot be slowed below 100% this time), and Desecration (Even an activable one with a short CD like SV hunters), and UH DK will be put in a team for a constant disruptive damage dealer without huge burst CD.


Edited by Jim_Jim, 18 November 2016 - 04:09 PM.

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#54 Warmonger_Skulm

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Posted 19 November 2016 - 07:54 PM

He always start quite happy when he logs in, optimistic but then he saw that :

Rogue have a passive slow, a passive MS, good constant damage, and 100x more mobility thanks to a talent that every UH dreamed of : http://www.wowhead.c...ut-to-the-chase

Feral are... well, less resistant, but way more mobile while having dots that makes your disease look like anything but a disease.

Enhancement have good constant damage while bringing purge, bl.

WW are... OP everywhere but constant damage.

Ret paladin always had less damage than DK but more burst and more assist tools. Now they have more damage, AND more burst, ANd more assist tools.

...

...

 

"I can bring you AMZ !"

"Well, frost DK too, and he has as much root as a frost mage :("

 

So he ends his day like this :

 

tumblr_inline_niar177kdp1qh9ez6.png

 

DK's damage wouldn't be average if they weren't so vulnerable to the millions slows and sprint spell every classes have.

 

Bring back Death Advance (But cannot be slowed below 100% this time), and Desecration (Even an activable one with a short CD like SV hunters), and UH DK will be put in a team for a constant disruptive damage dealer without huge burst CD.

 

I completely agree, atm the ret's have more survival + dps + cc + mobility. It is pretty much pointless to compare them with a DK, especially after the latest second 10% str nerf.

 

Great post, and this should be looked into for sure.


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#55 Itsnel

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 12:11 AM

whoever the lead designer is for dk in pvp, he is a fucking faggot


Edited by Itsnel, 20 November 2016 - 12:17 AM.

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#56 Warmonger_Skulm

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 03:19 PM

What about the upcoming breath buff for frost in 7.1.5 ? Any ideas ? New popular spec inc imho. Less creativity, and breath spec will be easly outplayable at higher ratings.


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#57 moneky

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 06:23 PM

What about the upcoming breath buff for frost in 7.1.5 ? Any ideas ? New popular spec inc imho. Less creativity, and breath spec will be easly outplayable at higher ratings.

Ive been playing breath spec all along and i dont have much complaints


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#58 Refren

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 06:51 PM

am i supposed to kill the adds or focus the boss?

 

zzO1hjy.jpg


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#59 Warmonger_Skulm

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Posted 20 November 2016 - 07:32 PM

Ive been playing breath spec all along and i dont have much complaints

 

What I want to say is basically there was a room for creativity before, some dk's would go "sustained-obliteration" some would go "breath". Now it's going to be a one-tick pony, which will force everyone to pay attention to the breath CD if you know what I mean.

 

Damage wise, the current breath buff will make breath spec unquestionably superior for PvP imho. I am really curious about the developments. If they implement it as the way it is right now, I don't see any other option than to go frost-breath.


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Posted 20 November 2016 - 08:12 PM

whoever the lead designer is for dk in pvp, he is a fucking faggot

Pretty much nailed it dude. Couldnt agree moar.


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