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#21 YVNG_CARL_YVNG

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 11:12 AM

What do you think of simply taking their leaders out with drones? Seems to've been reasonably effective for the Obama administration.


A drone strike in principle wouldn't be wrong, but the way you proposed it is a terrible idea.

Just stop for a second and think. The structure of islamic terrorism isn't like a military or a state. The terrorists all operate independently in small cells spread around the world. Now if you cut off the head, clearly those people will panic. What the fuck do you think will happen? We'd have a second paris, matter of fact multiple uncoordinated attacks on Europe and the United States.

Since no one read my long ass post anyway I will just sum it up in a three step plan:

1) Stop all delivery of weapons from both Europe and the US to UAE and Turkey. Those states actively equip IS military. Support Kurdish troops and rebel troops so that the change can happen from within. If kurdish and syrian military wins more and more battles with the IS it sends a completely different message than if we bomb them. Where do you think all that hatred for the western world stems from?..
2) The NATO needs to officially declare a no-tolerance policy for Russias, Turkeys and UAE's support for the islamic state (and the assad regime). They need to threaten an embargo. It doesn't matter whether or not they actually pull through with it, he idea here is to destabilize and demoralize. A lot of IS recruits are young and undecisive, they'll get cold feet when they see their project fail. We also need to tackle their money sources. The three main sources of income from the IS are money streams from UAE and Turkey, Heroin trade and tolls and taxes they put on the general population. Two of those can easily be tackled. If UAE see their oil prices dropping even a bit they'll think twice about supporting IS. Stopping the heroin trade of course isn't possible, but we should at least try since the police in the respective countries is completely incapacitated.
3) Now that IS recruits are demoralized, the main money sources and therefore military power is threatened internal conflict will break out. This is the moment where you have to strike. If you set an example at such a time, a retaliation will be far less likely. I agree a drone strike wouldn't be a terrible idea there, neither would a stealth bomber attack. As long as it's not gas or ground troops...

heh Turkey sorta fine))

i guess it sort of is relatively to the other examples but the wording made me pause reading for a few seconds



also the key word in my stop pretending comment was 'you'

you as in USA

i agree with the point you've made fully

im just being an ass


You been watching the news lately? Turkey is barely any better than the other "islamic" countries, they're just more stable. They regularily get rid of Erdogan's critics, they still actively support the mass-slaughter of kurds, they still supply terrorists. I don't see how that's "fine". It's just the tip of the iceberg.

Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Palestine, Libya, Afghanistan


Their populace's "peaceful Muslims" also seem to serve terrorists as either meatshields(which let them get pissy at the US about civilian casualties despite clearly using/abusing civilians) or recruiting pools.

I'm sure there are some Muslim countries like Turkey that are sorta fine but for the most part it doesn't seem like a great idea to leave the countries that are the main sources/havens of Islamic terrorism to their own devices at this point.


I wrote a long ass post, but it got deleted so I'll just sum up my main points.

"They just end up electing terrorists anyway!"

Syria has never been a democracy. Bashar Al-Assads father was "elected" president with 99.6% of all votes (this should tell you something) after he "cleansed" the entire former administration. The sole fact that he had his son appointed to president without any democratic process should tell you that we are not talking about a democracy here.

The sovereign state of Iraq was founded in 1958. It only lasted 5 years before it was overthrown by the Baaht-Party. We are talking about the highest military executives here, this was a coup, not a democratical process. The Baath party was the smallest party in congress and would have never won a vote. 1963 was also the date Hussein was made vice-president. We are talking about a dictatorship here, supported by US money and weapons. No one ever elected them.

Would you also say "Latin America just isn't ready for democracy!" because Chile and Bolivia were overthrown with the help of US money in the '70s? Your point is moot. Those countries never elected terrorists, because those countries never elected anyone. The elections there are a sham and have been for decades. You literally cannot know whether or not Syria or Iraq would elect a terrorist, because for the last 40 years they haven't been in the position to elect anyone.
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#22 Reliuna

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 01:39 PM

great fucking job, i'm sure your family is proud of you. you're an embarrassment.


ty
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#23 Buglamp

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 02:20 PM

A drone strike in principle wouldn't be wrong, but the way you proposed it is a terrible idea.

Just stop for a second and think. The structure of islamic terrorism isn't like a military or a state. The terrorists all operate independently in small cells spread around the world. Now if you cut off the head, clearly those people will panic. What the fuck do you think will happen? We'd have a second paris, matter of fact multiple uncoordinated attacks on Europe and the United States.

I will just sum it up in a three step plan:

Stop all delivery of weapons from both Europe and the US to UAE and Turkey. Those states actively equip IS military.

The NATO needs to officially declare a no-tolerance policy for Russias, Turkeys and UAE's support for the islamic state (and the assad regime).


Pressuring supporters/suppliers does make sense.

A lot of IS recruits are young and undecisive, they'll get cold feet when they see their project fail...

Now that IS recruits are demoralized...


The people susceptible to being recruited won't end up joining another terrorist group? If ISIS were essentially defeated, wouldn't something else replace them?

There's an argument that as long as the sentiments of these groups are still widely held in the Islamic countries they'd continue to breed terrorists. I don't agree with the US trying to stay out of their business or be gentle or anything like that, it just seems like your 3 step plan might only be a temporary fix. Lasting cultural changes(toward secularism/away from extremism) seem like the only thing that will solve Islamic terrorism anytime soon.



You been watching the news lately? Turkey is barely any better than the other "islamic" countries, they're just more stable. They regularily get rid of Erdogan's critics, they still actively support the mass-slaughter of kurds, they still supply terrorists. I don't see how that's "fine". It's just the tip of the iceberg.


I don't pay that much attention anymore honestly, I only vaguely knew Turkey has been problematic lately but they still seem at least capable of democracy unlike many other Islamic countries.


"They just end up electing terrorists anyway!"

Syria has never been a democracy. Bashar Al-Assads father was "elected" president with 99.6% of all votes (this should tell you something) after he "cleansed" the entire former administration. The sole fact that he had his son appointed to president without any democratic process should tell you that we are not talking about a democracy here.

Those countries never elected terrorists, because those countries never elected anyone. The elections there are a sham and have been for decades.


I should've worded it better but my point wasn't that they elected terrorists "normally", just that they're too unstable to have a chance at anything remotely comparable to first world style elections(which aren't perfect but still). I agree the elections have been shams. Though TBH I still doubt they'd make a reasonable choice if they managed to hold a "real" election.
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#24 Reliuna

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 02:58 PM

islam has always been a personal religion, not an organized religion like christianity.


can ppl not feed this troll pls
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#25 FTRouslan

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 05:54 PM

Vote Donald Trump for sanity in NATO and peace in the Middle East.
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#26 FTRouslan

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 05:59 PM

this is an embarrassement. the comparison to Germany was even worse. matter of fact all the comparisons fail since she was talking about ideological groups, not religious ones. the ideology proposed by the islamic state is to be seperated from the general belief system of a muslim. as for germany, it wasn't just SS and SA members looting jewish stores. everyone tried to get the best of it, everyone tried to bring some kind of profit to himself. every single German who didn't (passively or actively) opposed the regime (there were lots of ways how people fought back) indirectly supported it. they are at fault. we are talking about nine out of ten people here. it is not a comparison. the peaceful majority has never been irrelevant, the opposite is the case. they are involved.

as for islam, it is a completely different scenario. we have groups like the peshmerga actively fighting a war against the islamic state. they are being held down by turkey, but europe is trembling in fear because turkey is important to solve the refugee situation. they're mortified, petrified. we have an obligation to act if we want to criticize. there are groups like east-asian muslims where radicals are practically nonexistant. there's sufis who are essentially non-violent. there are.......

islam has always been a personal religion, not an organized religion like christianity. now we have salafi groups who are being sponsored by the uae, paid to spread extremist ideology. while christianity has been building communities for centuries, islam has only started recently. there are barely any people spreading the word about secular islam. there are barely any people spreading the word about a modern, liberal, middle- and northern european islam. it exists. some muslims eat pork. some muslims don't wear a burka and don't make their wives wear a burka. if anything, we have to tackle the source of the problem. but the western world won't do that, because uae has so much precious oil. germany has been delivering weapons to the uae for fucking decades, guess what those were used for?

the goal of said salafi groups is to win over newcomers (ie: refugees) who generally have a worldview that is more comparable to that of a european (which is why they fled in the first place) than it is to that of a salafi extremist. when we are talking about muslim extremism we are referring almost exclusively to a minority of salafi arabs. the only reason why they got so powerful in the first place is because they benefited hugely from the destabilization (thanks fucking burgerland) and the knowledge & weaponry (thanks again fucking burgerland) brought to them in over thirty years of conflict. they benefit from a strong israel and a weak palestine, actively producing propaganda and creating a new scapegoat: the western world and jews. this is a problem we've brought upon us. muslims and jews have been living (mostly) peaceful for centuries and great britain had to fuck it all up with the treaties surrounding the birth of the state of israel.

it is exactly like the ugly burka girl said, you stupid niggers need to read a fucking book. islam is not homogenous in any way. the speaker is a worthless populist, everything she says has absolutely no substance and is nothing but big words to fire up the crowd. her pityful attempt at swooning over the americans talking about "4 dead" at the end makes me sick. she doesn't even offer a fucking solution. what is even remotely interesting about what she has to say? she acknowledges that there are extremists, but doesn't tell us how to deal with them.

why didn't america (or the western world in general) support the fucking kurds more? why are we batting an eye when russia is actively defending their interests in the syria conflict? those are real fucking issues we could be a part of, that is some positive change we could help bring along. but you people would rather bask in your supposed moral superiority, jerking off in a corner. if the extremists are all that matter then please go ahead and propose a fucking solution as to how to deal with them.

(you blow, reliuna.)



i don't know what exactly you are trying to say, but if you're saying that "killing half of germany's population solved the problem" then you're being ignorant.

after ww2 all nazi politicians with the exception of the highest officials just continued on with their posts. they were still in power. people were still clinging on to the ideology, just silently. it took germany more than 20 years (think the mid 1960s, the first time real change was happening) to get rid of that infection. change doesn't happen overnight. in the case of germany it took student protests and a german terrorist group actively killing off politicians that made career under hitler to even start a change in thinking. most people don't know about that, then again most people don't know anything about the history past 45 anyway.

if you were being ironic, just ignore my post i suppose.



great fucking job, i'm sure your family is proud of you. you're an embarrassment.


Islam isn't homogenous. You only need to look at the difference between Muslims in the United States, Egypt, Iran, and Indonesia, to know that. However. there are certain attitudes that are scarily present in Muslim countries, especially within the Middle East. I think those are cultural attitudes haven't gone away thanks to a lack of wealth, failed state institutions, etc., but that doesn't mean that the minute you start bringing in refugees, they'll suddenly change to a more European way of thinking. That simply does not happen in 90%+ of cases. You cannot change a lifestyle overnight.

And even if the vast majority of these people are nonviolent, and if those in warzones tend to disapprove of violent extremists, the rest of the population tends to have way too much support for rogue organizations like Hamas, the Islamic State, Boko Haram, al Shabaab, etc., especially since these groups often advocate similar sets of beliefs.

The more frightening example is that nearly every single American politician wants to continue more of the same geopolitics-as-usual bullshit that has done nothing but provoke the bee's nest over and over again. Either our leaders are incompetent, corrupt, or evil. Why have we inadvertently funded Syrian and Libyan extremists? How did we allow weapons from Benghazi to be shipped to Turkey and Syria? What's the point of NATO if members like Turkey seek to undermine our security in the Middle East? When are we due for another round of liberating and nation-building? I imagine Syria is "ripe for democracy". That scares me, since it seems like the reactionary extremist groups will continuously feed off of both anti-American and pro-Shariah sentiment to create a giant ideological clusterfuck that will continue to endanger the safety of everybody worldwide.

Maybe Islam is a red herring, and I definitely wouldn't discriminate against more secularly minded or reformed Muslims who seek asylum, but the fact of the matter is that the average Muslim holds beliefs that are complete anathema to Western society, and these belief systems are encouraged and perpetuated by "Muslim" institutions. Calling Islam "a personal religion" makes you ignorant of organized theocracies like Iran and Saudi Arabia, the historical caliphate, and the fact that Islam calls for a very specific brand of legal system in the form of shariah law. It's far more than personal, which makes integration a tremendously challenge. Unlike the United States, it seems like Europe has been horrible at integrating these people to be more like Europeans by the first/second generation, probably due to latent "white man's burden" racism that I often see over there. I can only see disaster in the long run.

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#27 Thaya

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 06:09 PM

You been watching the news lately? Turkey is barely any better than the other "islamic" countries, they're just more stable. They regularily get rid of Erdogan's critics, they still actively support the mass-slaughter of kurds, they still supply terrorists. I don't see how that's "fine". It's just the tip of the iceberg.

the first line in my post was sarcasm about Turkey being "fine" actually



didn't read anything else but its on my to do list bois

cya in a bit
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#28 YVNG_CARL_YVNG

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 08:13 PM

Before I will go ahead and tackle your arguments I just wanted to mention one thing that has been troubling me for quite a bit. Why the hell are you so keen on being a social media warrior for Trump? It has honestly reached a point where I'm legitimately worried for you. Just a few days ago you engaged in an internet debate that went on for almost 80 fucking comments. Do you honestly believe you can change peoples minds this way? What is the point? Why are you doing all of this? You're the single most active person on my entire feed and all I see you do is attack (admittedly stupid) people making (admittedly stupid) points. Is this your idea of "public debate"? Because for me it looks more like trying to profile yourself. I won't start a debate around Trump, I can't be fucking arsed to debate that out with you (after reading some of your comments), but really this shit seems compulsive to me.

Islam isn't homogenous. You only need to look at the difference between Muslims in the United States, Egypt, Iran, and Indonesia, to know that. However. there are certain attitudes that are scarily present in Muslim countries, especially within the Middle East. I think those are cultural attitudes haven't gone away thanks to a lack of wealth, failed state institutions, etc., but that doesn't mean that the minute you start bringing in refugees, they'll suddenly change to a more European way of thinking. That simply does not happen in 90%+ of cases. You cannot change a lifestyle overnight.


You don't have to change a lifestyle overnight. You are painting a picture of oblivious refugees when clearly the opposite is the case. Even if their values are not always congruent with ours (they are, in most cases, because the people seeking refugee usually aren't extremists or hardcore conservatives, they are the complete opposite) the refugees are conscious of "European values". Even if their worldview might differ, they can (and have to, bound by law) respect their boundaries and act accordingly.

To be frank if anything you as an American are rather oblivious to the situation. I have been living near one of the biggest refugee camps in entire eastern Germany for almost two years (it's only half a mile away), I have conducted interviews with the residents, I have conducted interviews with the refugees, I've even talked to the police about the situation. Those "cultural attitudes" you mention are in your head. We are talking about thousands of individuals here. Some are children ffs. You admit that they are not a homogenous group, yet you somehow manage to project some "cultural attitudes" on the majority of them. That's bullshit.

And even if the vast majority of these people are nonviolent, and if those in warzones tend to disapprove of violent extremists, the rest of the population tends to have way too much support for rogue organizations like Hamas, the Islamic State, Boko Haram, al Shabaab, etc., especially since these groups often advocate similar sets of beliefs.


When you say "the rest of the population", you are referring to a clear minority. What is the point of even bringing this up? Clearly extremist groups have some support in the general populace, how else would they work? What even is the conclusion of this? You're not making a point.

Advocate similiar sets of beliefs to whom? Last time I checked many leaders of the islamic faith openly outspoke against ISIS and their actions. You are acting like extremist groups are representing the belief system of a majority, which clearly is wrong. Salafism is not the islam most believers subscribe to.

The more frightening example is that nearly every single American politician wants to continue more of the same geopolitics-as-usual bullshit that has done nothing but provoke the bee's nest over and over again. Either our leaders are incompetent, corrupt, or evil. Why have we inadvertently funded Syrian and Libyan extremists? How did we allow weapons from Benghazi to be shipped to Turkey and Syria? What's the point of NATO if members like Turkey seek to undermine our security in the Middle East? When are we due for another round of liberating and nation-building? I imagine Syria is "ripe for democracy". That scares me, since it seems like the reactionary extremist groups will continuously feed off of both anti-American and pro-Shariah sentiment to create a giant ideological clusterfuck that will continue to endanger the safety of everybody worldwide.


I agree with everything you are saying here, but I don't think you know what Shariah law means. It is a very insignificant part of the ISIS-ideology, especially seeing as no official state right now is following Shariah law and the fact that there is absolutely no clear definition, it is merely a catch-all term for every state law that is taken from either the Quran or the Hadiths. Even countries not at all involved in this conflict may have some Shariah laws, as Sharia encompasses all from social life to family to business to politics.. Even countries that strike us as fairly secular might have adapted laws from the Quran and later changed them, those would still be Sharia law.

Maybe Islam is a red herring, and I definitely wouldn't discriminate against more secularly minded or reformed Muslims who seek asylum, but the fact of the matter is that the average Muslim holds beliefs that are complete anathema to Western society, and these belief systems are encouraged and perpetuated by "Muslim" institutions. Calling Islam "a personal religion" makes you ignorant of organized theocracies like Iran and Saudi Arabia, the historical caliphate, and the fact that Islam calls for a very specific brand of legal system in the form of shariah law. It's far more than personal, which makes integration a tremendously challenge. Unlike the United States, it seems like Europe has been horrible at integrating these people to be more like Europeans by the first/second generation, probably due to latent "white man's burden" racism that I often see over there. I can only see disaster in the long run.


You did not understand the point I was making at all, since it is rather close to what you are saying. Islam has only been reformed from a personal religion to an organized religion in the last century. The problem here is that the only branches of Islam that are reforming in this manner are hardcore conservatives and the only reason why they are able to reform is because they are getting paid to do it. Essentially, what is happening is that a few arab extremists are controlling the biggest change to Islam in the last few hundred years. Sufi Islam has no voice whatsoever. Moderate Islam has no voice whatsoever. ISIS was only possible as an organization because they were the only ones recruiting. I'm not saying organized Islam does not exist, I'm saying it never existed in a way that organized christianity did. So we find ourselves in this situation where one very outspoken minority has the monopoly on representation and therefore the others are not seen.

You saying "Islam calls for Sharia law" scares me. Where did you get that from? Can you source your beliefs? I'm not a Quran scholar by any means but I have never heard of that and would be very surprised. This is a vague generalization. "White man's burden" shit is not even a thing here. People don't know what the words "white guilt" even mean. I don't see an apologetic stance from the general populace, if anything a demanding one. Sorry to be so harsh but I don't think you know what you are talking about.

We have had this discussion about "Europe being horrible at integrating" once before, I will not go into detail about this because that'd be too much for one post.

Just a short paragraph concerning Caliphates as religious institutions. This is much more a thing of tribal disputes. Tribes have been abusing the idea of one of theirs being Mohammed's direct successor for geopolitics for centuries. Sunnis on the other hand believe that Caliph are to be democratically elected. Yes, they are religious representatives, but Caliphates are hardly theocracies like we've seen them in the 20th century.

I have come across this graphic from the PEW-Research center quite often actually and I am very disappointed in you. You're in Harvard for fucks sake, don't they teach you to review your sources critically?

Who was asked in this questionnaire? Who are the people behind PEW? https://en.wikipedia...seph_Newton_Pew Is the guy it was named after if you were curious. He was a hardcore presbyterian and a republican donor. So are his children (afaik). Who are the people putting forward money for this kind of research? Never take any source for granted. This shit reeks of bias. What does "Shariah should rule" even mean? It's completely worthless, there is no uniform definition of Sharia law and it is completely up for personal interpretation. Refer to my definition above. This is a graphic made to scare people, mostly people that don't know what Shariah law is, because their first thought will be "beheading and stoning".
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#29 FTRouslan

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 08:57 PM

I wrote a placeholder text to address the Donald Trump social media warrior text, but it got deleted. I'll just say that I rarely even talk about Trump, I never post Facebook statuses about Trump, and the comment thread you talked about was 90% me roasting some kid who does nothing but spam my girlfriend and I's posts with contrarian bullshit. That's a little bit excessive.

There's a lot of misinformation that gets spread on Facebook. I comment perhaps on 1% of the posts that I see when it's a bit too much. If that somehow looks like a problem to you, then you need to diversify your newsfeed assets or get more friends. LIke, that's a bit bizarre if your newsfeed is nothing but comments made by me on a friend's status and random news stories over the course of a month.

I'll address everything else when I have more time. Currently home with my girlfriend packing for a trip and thought I wouldn't leave you hanging.
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#30 Thaya

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 09:35 PM

well fuck

thanks for ruining the thread for me

tfw no girlfriend
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#31 YVNG_CARL_YVNG

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 03:17 PM

I wrote a placeholder text to address the Donald Trump social media warrior text, but it got deleted. I'll just say that I rarely even talk about Trump, I never post Facebook statuses about Trump, and the comment thread you talked about was 90% me roasting some kid who does nothing but spam my girlfriend and I's posts with contrarian bullshit. That's a little bit excessive.

There's a lot of misinformation that gets spread on Facebook. I comment perhaps on 1% of the posts that I see when it's a bit too much. If that somehow looks like a problem to you, then you need to diversify your newsfeed assets or get more friends. LIke, that's a bit bizarre if your newsfeed is nothing but comments made by me on a friend's status and random news stories over the course of a month.

I'll address everything else when I have more time. Currently home with my girlfriend packing for a trip and thought I wouldn't leave you hanging.


Nah don't worry mate I know you'll come back with a good reply. Also, the reason my facebook feed is so "spammed" is because out of 550 people, I have deactivated updates from about 400. I was (I am) just really curious as to why, don't let me stop you from doing anything. I got a little heated so take it with a grain of NaCl.
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#32 Flexes92

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 09:59 AM

Also fun fact: today I cut all connection to my little brother because of him being an islamist-apologist.

one of the reasons I felt like watching through the vid again.

and now your brother is even more in the islamist-apologist echochamber, you're even more in the anti-islamist echochamber and worst of all you're not talking to your own brother anymore just because you have different opinions. bravo.
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i think it's an inward penis, so maybe 3" is accurate? could be more, dunno how deep, never been inside a woman personally

being ugly doesn't mean you have inner beauty


#33 Reliuna

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 04:34 PM

and now your brother is even more in the islamist-apologist echochamber, you're even more in the anti-islamist echochamber and worst of all you're not talking to your own brother anymore just because you have different opinions. bravo.


anti-religion =/= anti-islam

i've not talked to my brother since forever, always disliked him since childhood, but knowing he has this view on the world was kinda the last straw. my fault to make my post look like him having these opinions were a large reason to why i dont want any contact with him, when in reality it's just one out of many reasons.
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