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#121 Railander

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 08:06 PM

No one is talking about balance. Balance doesn't even matter when the core gameplay sucks ****. Design wise almost all classes are completely fucked from a PvP standpoint.



No class is more fun for competitive PvP in Legion than they were in WoD (or MoP). That's a fact. Can't have more fun competitive gameplay when almost all skill is being sucked out of it.

The only people who will say anything else are 1500 retards who "PvP to see the epicness of AV!!!! omg! Ashran is so good". So yeah, for anyone looking to enjoy competitive PvP at a high level it's very black and white.

a lot of people are talking about balance, actually. just reread this thread.

as for the other thing, did you even pay attention do the video?
i never even implied that the game isn't worse (or better). the fact you think that's what im talking about just makes you fall into the same fallacy.
just because blizzard did a terrible job doesn't mean the system itself is bad. bringing out class fantasy and uniqueness of each class/spec IMO is a good design, if the game is worse its because blizzard did a shitty implementation of it (for instance, ability pruning) and not that the system itself is bad.
"the system is shit because the game turnet out to be shit" is not the only answer to it. the same thing happened to the new talent system, which potentially is clearly better than what we had but blizzard did a very shitty job at giving us interesting and meaningful talent choices.
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#122 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 08:12 PM

bringing out class fantasy and uniqueness of each class/spec IMO is a good design

except thats not actually their design at all - "bringing out class fantasy" is what they say instead of pruning in Legion since pruning is so amazingly unpopular after how shitty WoD turned out to be

unless you actually think that, for instance, frostfire bolt was removed because they genuinely believe "a spell that combines fire and frost magic should result in a puddle of water at the casters feet"?

also what class/spec uniqueness? every single dps spec just spams damage, every single healer spec just spams healing, tanks are gods as usual at the start of every single expansion where they decide to "make tanks viable in arena" again. what is unique about any of that rofl

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 10 June 2016 - 08:20 PM.

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No because the difference is when I play a comp i play it close to skill cap

if anyone needs to be banned, it's you. You do nothing but sit on AJ being a passive aggressive idiot that nobody likes, sorry you stink of washing up liquid.

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)


#123 Railander

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 08:22 PM

except thats not actually their design at all - "bringing out class fantasy" is what they say instead of pruning in Legion since pruning is so amazingly unpopular after how shitty WoD turned out to be

unless you actually think that, for instance, frostfire bolt was removed because they genuinely believe "a spell that combines fire and frost magic should result in a puddle of water at the casters feet"?

exactly.

if they stick to class fantasy/uniqueness and did it well, i think everyone would be happy. problem is they are doing a terrible job at it while bringing other unwanted baggage with it, such as ability pruning.

what i was pointing out was that the other guy specifically blamed how bad its turning out solely on the class fantasy design, which is not the only explanation to why its bad.
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#124 Konjunktur

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Posted 10 June 2016 - 09:48 PM

a lot of people are talking about balance, actually. just reread this thread.


Almost everyone is talking about how all classes are getting royally fucked mechanics wise. Re-read the thread yourself. There's a few loling mentions of how some abilities do too much/little damage, but I can count them on one hand.

as for the other thing, did you even pay attention do the video?
i never even implied that the game isn't worse (or better). the fact you think that's what im talking about just makes you fall into the same fallacy.

Either classes are more or less fun (overall) for competitive PvP. Black or White, More fun or less fun. There's no fallacy. It's a two choice option. And as Elor said, no class is overall more fun in WoD when it comes to competitive PvP.

just because blizzard did a terrible job doesn't mean the system itself is bad. bringing out class fantasy and uniqueness of each class/spec IMO is a good design, if the game is worse its because blizzard did a shitty implementation of it (for instance, ability pruning) and not that the system itself is bad.
"the system is shit because the game turnet out to be shit" is not the only answer to it.


Pruning is the "system". Just because they rebranded it as "Class Fantasy" doesn't mean it actually is. It's utility pruning, that's the system, just as Dizzeyoo and many others pointed out before.

From a competitive PvP standpoint, the game clearly doesn't need any more pruning of utility. It has nothing to do with how the game "turnet" out to be shit. It's just a shitty system at this point, period. Anyone could tell how more pruning was going to impact the PvP side of the game negatively.

the same thing happened to the new talent system, which potentially is clearly better than what we had but blizzard did a very shitty job at giving us interesting and meaningful talent choices.


You're actually right about this one, PvP-talents were a good idea, only they implemented them awfully and decided that due to their implementation they could also go on with their "Class Fantasy" idea of further pruning.

It's typical Blizzard, one step forward seven steps backwards.

what i was pointing out was that the other guy specifically blamed how bad its turning out solely on the class fantasy design, which is not the only explanation to why its bad.


Class Fantasy = Pruning. Class Fantasy (Pruning) is the reason it's turning out so badly. It is the explanation.
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#125 Regent

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Posted 11 June 2016 - 08:31 AM

Yeah, the whole "Class Fantasy" thing was just a clever way to say "More Pruning" without making people mad.

I think it could eventually be good though, because soon there will be absolutely nothing left of the classes and then they will have to start adding more abilities.
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#126 Forumz

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Posted 12 June 2016 - 12:26 PM

Yeah, the whole "Class Fantasy" thing was just a clever way to say "More Pruning" without making people mad.

I think it could eventually be good though, because soon there will be absolutely nothing left of the classes and then they will have to start adding more abilities.

They will never add abilities that have niche use ever again, because it's too confusing for new players : )))

Buttons have to either do damage or healing, nothing else is allowed.

Edited by Forumz, 12 June 2016 - 12:26 PM.

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#127 Railander

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Posted 15 June 2016 - 02:28 AM

Almost everyone is talking about how all classes are getting royally fucked mechanics wise. Re-read the thread yourself. There's a few loling mentions of how some abilities do too much/little damage, but I can count them on one hand.


Either classes are more or less fun (overall) for competitive PvP. Black or White, More fun or less fun. There's no fallacy. It's a two choice option. And as Elor said, no class is overall more fun in WoD when it comes to competitive PvP.



Pruning is the "system". Just because they rebranded it as "Class Fantasy" doesn't mean it actually is. It's utility pruning, that's the system, just as Dizzeyoo and many others pointed out before.

From a competitive PvP standpoint, the game clearly doesn't need any more pruning of utility. It has nothing to do with how the game "turnet" out to be shit. It's just a shitty system at this point, period. Anyone could tell how more pruning was going to impact the PvP side of the game negatively.



You're actually right about this one, PvP-talents were a good idea, only they implemented them awfully and decided that due to their implementation they could also go on with their "Class Fantasy" idea of further pruning.

It's typical Blizzard, one step forward seven steps backwards.



Class Fantasy = Pruning. Class Fantasy (Pruning) is the reason it's turning out so badly. It is the explanation.

what a fucking load of asenine bullshit.

it IS a black and white fallacy.
do you even know what "class fantasy" mean? it means that classes (and specs) have an intuitive and coherent sense between their lore, appearance, abilities and gameplay.
how the fuck does that translate to pruning? no seriously, how the fuck does that even mean pruning in your view? i'll tell you why, because like i said blizzard did a terrible job at implementing it and disposed of pruning to achieve it, which is apparently why you think its the only way.

you could go the exact opposite route of pruning to achieve class fantasy. literally bloating specs with spells that match the criteria would bring out class fantasy too, but of course that conflicts with a different blizzard philosophy of "less is more" but it has NOTHING to do with class fantasy itself.
also in regards to spells that dont currently make sense to specs, instead of removing them you could literally just rename them and make a slightly different animation. for instance, instead of frostfire bolt for frost mages (because in blizzard's view it doesnt make sense) just name it something like coldfire bolt and change the animation's collor to a blueish fire. does that make it fall into the class fantasy? yes. does it change anything in gameplay or mechanics? no.

like i said, the system is NOT pruning, the system is class fantasy, but like we both pointed out they are indeed disposing of pruning to achieve it, which i already said is a terrible way to do it.
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#128 Filthpig

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Posted 15 June 2016 - 05:22 PM

I have only read a few posts from this thread, but my opinion on the pruning since early alpha:

Initially, it is a little alarming at how few abilities you have in legion. I for one enjoyed having a ton of abilities in previous expansions, I went from only using about 16 key binds in TBC to over 70 in Wrath when I started to play at glad levels. I am kind of enjoying the straightforward nature of legion PVP so far though. Granted I only have limited experience with it being a few BGs on each class, but nonetheless I find it fun to play for sure. Time and time again through other very successful games we have been shown that you do not need 50 abilities to have a game with a lot of depth. Shit, a big part of the game in the early days of arena was just picking which enchants and gems you were going to use to give you an advantage against certain things. Does anyone remember when some warlocks were experimenting with straight armor to try and get a leg up on Druid/war and the early cleaves?

Although we may only have about 15-20 abilities, they are all used extensively. Very few of them are extremely situational like some abilities in the past. I don't mind not having water breathing, enslave demon, among other fluff abilities because their usage was extremely limited or not useful at all in the PVP scope. You also need to remember that you have 2 talent tress AND artifact trees now. It's not quite the old talent system but it's pretty damn similar. They have basically changed fluff to functionality and people are just shell shocked by the sweeping change. Many of the changes are what people have been begging for since the beginning of mists, you have one or two major DPS cool downs to push damage and higher sustained damage just like when the game was peaking. A lot of tuning still needs to happen, but I have tried almost every spec and they all feel unique to themselves. Some of the reworks are great, I especially like the sun rogue rework. Every spec feels so different, and the new animations and sounds are a breath of fresh air. I think people need to try it before we complain.
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#129 Railander

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Posted 15 June 2016 - 07:18 PM

I have only read a few posts from this thread, but my opinion on the pruning since early alpha:

Initially, it is a little alarming at how few abilities you have in legion. I for one enjoyed having a ton of abilities in previous expansions, I went from only using about 16 key binds in TBC to over 70 in Wrath when I started to play at glad levels. I am kind of enjoying the straightforward nature of legion PVP so far though. Granted I only have limited experience with it being a few BGs on each class, but nonetheless I find it fun to play for sure. Time and time again through other very successful games we have been shown that you do not need 50 abilities to have a game with a lot of depth. Shit, a big part of the game in the early days of arena was just picking which enchants and gems you were going to use to give you an advantage against certain things. Does anyone remember when some warlocks were experimenting with straight armor to try and get a leg up on Druid/war and the early cleaves?

Although we may only have about 15-20 abilities, they are all used extensively. Very few of them are extremely situational like some abilities in the past. I don't mind not having water breathing, enslave demon, among other fluff abilities because their usage was extremely limited or not useful at all in the PVP scope. You also need to remember that you have 2 talent tress AND artifact trees now. It's not quite the old talent system but it's pretty damn similar. They have basically changed fluff to functionality and people are just shell shocked by the sweeping change. Many of the changes are what people have been begging for since the beginning of mists, you have one or two major DPS cool downs to push damage and higher sustained damage just like when the game was peaking. A lot of tuning still needs to happen, but I have tried almost every spec and they all feel unique to themselves. Some of the reworks are great, I especially like the sun rogue rework. Every spec feels so different, and the new animations and sounds are a breath of fresh air. I think people need to try it before we complain.

its definitely true that a game doesnt need a ton of abilities as evidenced by MOBAs and other similar games.
however, the problem with pruning isnt that the game cant be fun but rather that you'll shift the focus of the fun aspect. i for one have played a lot of both MOBAs and WoW but eventually got tired of MOBAs because there is little room for individual player skill outside of teamplays, while the same wasnt true for WoW. in WoW there was a lot of room for outplaying enemies even in duels and a lot of it was due to the sheer amount of abilities we had (excluding rather useless ones such as water breathing and enslave demon, like you pointed out).
i hope in the end the game still ends being fun and the meta doesnt go stale within 2 months like we've been seeing in the past 2 expansions, but in the last expansions we've been having more and more pruning and staleness and shift in the core focus of the game followed suit, so im definitely not optimistic about it.

in the end pruning is definitely bad because blizzard is trying to make WoW something that it isn't. MOBAs may be extremely popular, but there's a reason me and most people here are still playing (or trying to) WoW instead of MOBAs.
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#130 Bulldozer

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Posted 22 June 2016 - 07:26 AM

OP has a girl name without even showing tits

I'm going to take OPs word for it

Yep

I realize it's guaranteed replies.jpg while having a girl name but why don't you fuck off OP?

Show us some tits or get out

Your man tits don't count
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BUILD THE WALL DEPORT THEM ALL TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP MEXICO WILL PAY




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