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why exactly does legion afli suck?


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#21 Alidia

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 06:23 AM

i dont like half of his ideas. very shallow-minded and too focused on "returning the old" instead of taking the opportunity to truly make things better.
the half that i do like are basically just the obvious stuff.

quoting from my youtube comment on the video:


That is the biggest pile of nonsense i've read on here so far. It is not the point to RETURN to the old if you had payed even the most minimal attention, it is about not removing abilities going into Legion so the spell pool is bigger allowing for more nuanced players with skill cap ranging longer. As it is now, does it look like they are removing and adding, or removing 70% of spells and putting the rest into talents?
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#22 Hollowinside

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 08:35 AM

i dont like half of his ideas. very shallow-minded and too focused on "returning the old" instead of taking the opportunity to truly make things better.
the half that i do like are basically just the obvious stuff.

quoting from my youtube comment on the video:


Hmmm... I am in no way a Cdew fanboy, but I don't agree with all of your ideas either. I don't think for example that the changes he suggested would make Affli Locks feel like a poor man's Mage. Or what you said about Haunt and Armors. Both of these classes would still have quite some difference. For example, Lock would have self-healing and stronger defensive cds while Mage would be more mobile etc. I definitely agree with your opinions on Curses though!

Can't be sure when it comes to Locks since I ain't really that good on Lock. But even so, I can honestly tell you that I would rather play Cdew's Lock version anyday instead of Legion's one. :( I just can't see anyone who mains a Lock having fun with his class in this new expansion.
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#23 Lolflay

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 10:06 AM

You got it a bit mixed up with fel armor.

Demon armor in tbc was useless, fel armor gave both SP and healing received.

In wotlk they changed fel armor to give hp% regen instead of +healing received. So you did swap demon armor for defense.

In cata it was also fel armor for SP, and healing received on demon armor.


Oh, the way that Indead was speaking, I figured they merged the effect into Fel Armor in Cata. Was a while since then so I didn't remember.

So yeah, that's one thing they successfully removed from WoTLK/Cata times that was actually meaningful and I guess "fun" to do. I remember swapping to Demon Armor whenever I was about to get Kidney Shotted and it making all the difference in the world f.ex.
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#24 Railander

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 08:42 PM

That is the biggest pile of nonsense i've read on here so far. It is not the point to RETURN to the old if you had payed even the most minimal attention, it is about not removing abilities going into Legion so the spell pool is bigger allowing for more nuanced players with skill cap ranging longer. As it is now, does it look like they are removing and adding, or removing 70% of spells and putting the rest into talents?

no... the point of his video is precisely to return stuff. the reason is indeed to keep "lots of buttons" and i agree that's good, but said buttons must have a good purpose (provide good gameplay and be balanced, etc). most of the stuff i highlight as disliked are stuff that dont fit these criteria, of which i'd rather have reworked so it DOES fit the criteria.
before calling a post the "biggest pile of nonsense" you've ever read on arenajunkies and calling said person out to have completely missed the point, maybe next time you should follow your own advice.

Hmmm... I am in no way a Cdew fanboy, but I don't agree with all of your ideas either. I don't think for example that the changes he suggested would make Affli Locks feel like a poor man's Mage. Or what you said about Haunt and Armors. Both of these classes would still have quite some difference. For example, Lock would have self-healing and stronger defensive cds while Mage would be more mobile etc. I definitely agree with your opinions on Curses though!

Can't be sure when it comes to Locks since I ain't really that good on Lock. But even so, I can honestly tell you that I would rather play Cdew's Lock version anyday instead of Legion's one. :( I just can't see anyone who mains a Lock having fun with his class in this new expansion.

i dont know if its just the way you worded it, but when i said "poor man's mage" i was specifically referring to shadowflame snare, not the whole kit.
my pet peeve with haunt is purely personal, i just dont like the gameplay involved and how it feels, not really much i can say about it but yeah different people might like it.
regarding armors for some reason i had the TBC design stuck in my mind (probably because of that stupid screenshot shared in the official forums), pardon me for any confusion i might've caused. changing armors while in combat is actually good, although i personally find "stance-dancing" very boring.

Oh, the way that Indead was speaking, I figured they merged the effect into Fel Armor in Cata. Was a while since then so I didn't remember.

So yeah, that's one thing they successfully removed from WoTLK/Cata times that was actually meaningful and I guess "fun" to do. I remember swapping to Demon Armor whenever I was about to get Kidney Shotted and it making all the difference in the world f.ex.

yeah i apologize for the confusion, i had the TBC design stuck in my mind.
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#25 Atosy

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 11:39 PM

http://eu.battle.net...pic/17610953043

Pls read and comment.
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#26 Alidia

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Posted 01 April 2016 - 10:32 AM

no... the point of his video is precisely to return stuff. the reason is indeed to keep "lots of buttons" and i agree that's good, but said buttons must have a good purpose (provide good gameplay and be balanced, etc). most of the stuff i highlight as disliked are stuff that dont fit these criteria, of which i'd rather have reworked so it DOES fit the criteria.
before calling a post the "biggest pile of nonsense" you've ever read on arenajunkies and calling said person out to have completely missed the point, maybe next time you should follow your own advice.


Nonsense again, surprising. No, as I said the point is that they are removing spells that provide for more skilled players, there is almost not even one non-damaging or self heal ability (on every fucking dps,) the entire xpac seems to consist of only damage abilities, and such a low number of them them any down syndrome can play to start of with. And no, you were making a point out of admitted ignorance that there was a consensus that affliction had a bad design, someone posted a list of removed abilities and you didn't even respond much outside of mocking him for wanting armors back.

What is your stance? I have no idea what I am talking about but we really, really, really don't need alot of abilities because my subjective opinion dictates that alot of them are of poor design. You'd figure wrath lock design would be good considering the sub numbers compared to now, and compared to the reviews on UA locks from actual alpha players, but who cares about that.

Edit: Going to take the time to respond to your youtube comment, you were ignorant of armors and you pointed out that teleport was not fitting in the warlock design (what?) you've also seemed to miss a point Cdew has been making which is that he wants new abilities aswell, he even talked about cool designs for them on stream but the purpose of what he was saying was that alot of the abilities that were removed served a skillcap purpose, and served the purpose of making the class fun and interesting.
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#27 Railander

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 12:29 PM

Nonsense again, surprising. No, as I said the point is that they are removing spells that provide for more skilled players, there is almost not even one non-damaging or self heal ability (on every fucking dps,) the entire xpac seems to consist of only damage abilities, and such a low number of them them any down syndrome can play to start of with. And no, you were making a point out of admitted ignorance that there was a consensus that affliction had a bad design, someone posted a list of removed abilities and you didn't even respond much outside of mocking him for wanting armors back.

What is your stance? I have no idea what I am talking about but we really, really, really don't need alot of abilities because my subjective opinion dictates that alot of them are of poor design. You'd figure wrath lock design would be good considering the sub numbers compared to now, and compared to the reviews on UA locks from actual alpha players, but who cares about that.

Edit: Going to take the time to respond to your youtube comment, you were ignorant of armors and you pointed out that teleport was not fitting in the warlock design (what?) you've also seemed to miss a point Cdew has been making which is that he wants new abilities aswell, he even talked about cool designs for them on stream but the purpose of what he was saying was that alot of the abilities that were removed served a skillcap purpose, and served the purpose of making the class fun and interesting.


look, you really have no idea what you're talking about.
i agree with your premise that abilities are pruned, and that its made the game worse now in that aspect. that was never a matter of discussion.
the thing you're going about without actual reason is that you argued "they are removing spells that provide for more skilled players" so according to you the game should have over 100k spells for each spec as that'd provide a much higher skillcap according to your design philosophy.

the thing is abilities dont only need to raise the skillcap in order to be approved. there are many other factors that should be counted as well, including, you know, abilities that actually make the game fun.
now that we took that out of the way you can now go back and reread that post. come back when you read it with the argument that "skill depth is not the only thing abilities should have" in your head.

and then you go on about that i "admitted ignorance that there was a consensus that affliction had a bad design". okay what? i never admitted that, i admitted that i was jumping the gun on fel armor/demon armor (which to be honest i wasnt even completely wrong either, they were indeed useless in TBC). that is 1 of over a dozen arguments i pointed out.
then you go on about that i ignored the list of spells that were removed, but i honestly dont think i should point out some of those were indeed either bloated of served for a very niche purpose that frankly could be improved, such as rain of fire/hellfire and immolate/searing pain for affliction. first of all there's the obvious that fire spells make absolutely no sense for affliction so right off the bat we're at the very least going on a rework to make those shadow or at least shadowflame, secondly in the former they are overlapping with each other with the only difference being that one ticks twice as fast and the other can be targeted at range (and of course, for the sole niche purpose of taking people out of stealth or keeping people behind pillars in combat). i'd assume there's a much better way to accomplish those than with these 2 spells. then immolate/searing pain are basically just there so you can cast while locked. now if whe're REALLY going hardcore you shouldnt even have any option to cast anything if you're locked. if you got locked you should be penalized, no second chance. if you dont want to be as hardcore (which, ironically, goes counter to what you're arguing) then at least combine both into one spell. immolate doesnt even do that much more damage than searing pain and you'll only want to cast them when you're locked (or when you want to do damage without risking being locked) anyway.

and no, a teleport doesnt fit the warlock gameplay of being a caster with survivability not from kiting but from self-sustain. this was the case in TBC and i dont think many warlocks that played prior to wrath would disagree to this. also, i didnt even say that teleport should be gone, but that we should keep only either teleport or gateway. making portal baseline and gateway a talent that replaces it sounds good to me.

cdew only briefly pointed that new spells are a good thing and spent 95% of the time of his suggestions on bringing back old stuff.
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#28 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 12:49 PM

first of all there's the obvious that fire spells make absolutely no sense for affliction so right off the bat we're at the very least going on a rework to make those shadow or at least shadowflame

please don't copy paste retarded blizzard class based fantasy logic to justify pruning :(

and as for this pile of crap...

the thing you're going about without actual reason is that you argued "they are removing spells that provide for more skilled players" so according to you the game should have over 100k spells for each spec as that'd provide a much higher skillcap according to your design philosophy.


i'll just quote myself...

the exact number of buttons involved has nothing to do with it - the issue is with them removing almost all situational options, so there is generally always one single correct button to press in every situation, pve or pvp

it makes the game "easier" to balance, because two people playing the same class/spec end up having to play it in exactly the same way - you don't have one rmp ignoring cc and spamming pve damage while a second rmp ccs perfectly and bursts when appropriate, they both just press deep freeze on cooldown every 30 seconds while spamming pve dps rotations into one target

the cost of that easier balancing is all variation between players, all choice in gearing/playstyles, one dimensional and boring gameplay and shit comp variety as comp x counters comp y counters comp z counters comp x, anything not x y or z doesn't strongly counter anything so good luck playing it - basically the cost is WoD pvp, something which legion is currently doing very little to fix


Edited by Dizzeeyo, 08 April 2016 - 12:55 PM.

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No because the difference is when I play a comp i play it close to skill cap

if anyone needs to be banned, it's you. You do nothing but sit on AJ being a passive aggressive idiot that nobody likes, sorry you stink of washing up liquid.

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)


#29 Railander

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Posted 09 April 2016 - 03:21 AM

please don't copy paste retarded blizzard class based fantasy logic to justify pruning :(

and as for this pile of crap...


i'll just quote myself...


first of all there's the fact that i wasnt even talking to you and simly answering the fallacy the other guy posted here. in fact, this was your very first post in this thread and you just quoted me completely out of context and surprisingly you ignored the part (in bold even) where i specifically said "according to you"

secondly, if you are seriously arguing that how much skill depth a button can provide is the only factor that should matter, i honestly dont even know what you're doing wasting your time on WoW. and NEVER did i even attempt to justify pruning, i even went and said its bad previously in this thread. again, you're only seeing what you want to see.

TBH i dont remember ever discussing something with you where you didnt at one point or another forget how to think logically. starting to doubt your capabilities as a human.

Edited by Railander, 09 April 2016 - 03:24 AM.

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#30 Nadagast

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Posted 09 April 2016 - 05:50 AM

For me, Warlock got less fun with each expansion since Cata. No curses, fears that break quickly, weak dot pressure outside of cooldowns, destro is a shadow of its former self. All these and more (especially the awful state of pvp gameplay as a whole) contribute to Warlock being not fun to play compared to what it should be. I think Legion Warlock won't be that great because WoD Warlock isn't that great, and they're not doing much to bring back the good parts. One curse will not solve anything.

I don't agree with everything Cdew wants. I feel his video focused too much on bringing back exactly what existed in the past. But I would prefer to play that version of Warlock than the WoD or Legion versions.
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#31 Atosy

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Posted 09 April 2016 - 09:52 AM

I agree with Nadagast, but I mostly miss old stuff, that they won't bring back, so inventing/creating new interesting mechanics for affli isn't that easy in my opinion.

Btw guys I wrote a huge post about Legion affli, and I'd appriciate if you read it and post your thoughts/opinion. Thank you :)

http://eu.battle.net...pic/17611003452

http://us.battle.net...pic/20742976522

Same topic but has both US/EU version.

Edited by Atosy, 09 April 2016 - 09:52 AM.

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#32 JohnnyC

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Posted 09 April 2016 - 02:30 PM

For me, Warlock got less fun with each expansion since Cata. No curses, fears that break quickly, weak dot pressure outside of cooldowns, destro is a shadow of its former self. All these and more (especially the awful state of pvp gameplay as a whole) contribute to Warlock being not fun to play compared to what it should be. I think Legion Warlock won't be that great because WoD Warlock isn't that great, and they're not doing much to bring back the good parts. One curse will not solve anything.

I don't agree with everything Cdew wants. I feel his video focused too much on bringing back exactly what existed in the past. But I would prefer to play that version of Warlock than the WoD or Legion versions.



Spot on, the armor switching was fun aswell and could set apart good warlocks .
At least they removed dark soul , that single spell ruined affliction for me, along with soul swap.

Edited by JohnnyC, 09 April 2016 - 02:31 PM.

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#33 JohnnyC

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Posted 09 April 2016 - 02:35 PM

I would also like the removal of unending resolve and be balanced around having teleport+ HS, HS should change to what it was before .
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#34 Railander

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 10:56 AM

I agree with Nadagast, but I mostly miss old stuff, that they won't bring back, so inventing/creating new interesting mechanics for affli isn't that easy in my opinion.

Btw guys I wrote a huge post about Legion affli, and I'd appriciate if you read it and post your thoughts/opinion. Thank you :)

http://eu.battle.net...pic/17611003452

http://us.battle.net...pic/20742976522

Same topic but has both US/EU version.


i dont think its that hard to do. i mean, i acknowledge its hard for BLIZZARD to do it because they are clueless, but its not like its actually hard to do if you put someone who understands well how the class plays for the job.
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