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why exactly does legion afli suck?


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#1 Railander

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Posted 24 March 2016 - 03:49 PM

im seeing a lot of people say that the design of affliction in legion sucks dick, but i dont see any of them giving any explanation on why.
when some of them try to give some explanation, it makes literally no sense.

im not trying to suggest its good, im just asking why everyone says it sucks.

personally i need to test it out for myself to decide.

Edited by Railander, 24 March 2016 - 04:01 PM.

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#2 Knaittiz

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Posted 24 March 2016 - 04:13 PM

Probably due to the fact that the game looks like s5 style SMOrc fest where your dots dont get to tick before you are dead

Keep in mind I only watched a couple alpha streams
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#3 Railander

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Posted 24 March 2016 - 04:32 PM

Probably due to the fact that the game looks like s5 style SMOrc fest where your dots dont get to tick before you are dead

Keep in mind I only watched a couple alpha streams


from the "feedback" i heard it was more about the design of the spec, and it usually involves complaints of UA costing a SS, although none of them explains why that's bad design.
i can somehow see how it'd hurt the upkeep of our dispel-protection dot, but so far no one has achieve rank 50 pvp talents and the deeper ones buff UA ridiculously.
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#4 Atosy

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Posted 24 March 2016 - 04:44 PM

They will probably balance around you having stacked up like 3-4-5-6 UAs on one target, so 1 UA "stack" on 1 target wont do shit (so you dont get rewarded for stacking up 4 UAs on someone, that's gonna be "expected" from you to do). So you will have to spamcast UA again 24-7 to do some dmg, while literally everyone has 44573 ways to stop your casts and we wont have any other schools than shadow. Is that a good explanation?

Edited by Atosy, 24 March 2016 - 04:53 PM.

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#5 Railander

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Posted 24 March 2016 - 05:55 PM

They will probably balance around you having stacked up like 3-4-5-6 UAs on one target, so 1 UA "stack" on 1 target wont do shit (so you dont get rewarded for stacking up 4 UAs on someone, that's gonna be "expected" from you to do). So you will have to spamcast UA again 24-7 to do some dmg, while literally everyone has 44573 ways to stop your casts and we wont have any other schools than shadow. Is that a good explanation?

that sorta makes sense, but again, the deeper pvp talents buff UA insanely, and also your UA "spam" is still limited by how many SS you actually have.

for instance, UA lasts for only 8 secs but there's this single pvp talent that extends the duration by 50% (which, i assume, also increases total dmg by 50% instead of just flatening out the 8sec dmg)
there's also another talent that refreshes all dots on the target when you drain life, which maybe includes even ramped-up UA stacks.

Edited by Railander, 24 March 2016 - 06:02 PM.

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#6 Atosy

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Posted 24 March 2016 - 05:58 PM

You will have much more SS thanks to Soul Conduct (or smth like that), and multi dotting with Agony. The duration pvp talent (12sec) doesnt rly make a difference, you still have to spam UAs, and the buff of Rot and Decay depends on if you can maintain (refresh) your for example 5 stacked UAs.
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#7 OzCymru

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Posted 24 March 2016 - 11:04 PM

I think the Affli play style looks fun providing that a single UA is still decent damage. You have the option to stack them on a single player or spread them out depending on the need for burst or spread pressure. Also the dispel protection dealing 200% of the remaining damage seems like a good deterrent for removing your stacked UA.

Siphon Life making a return is also a nice choice and hopefully should be tuned well to compete with the Soul Harvest. I think I read somewhere too that the Felhunter's Shadow Bite now does bonus damage for each DoT you have on the target like back in Cata so I'm hoping that by taking SL that will also add to this.

I like the majority of the PvP talents except curses either being amazing vs teams without curse dispel, but any dps Druid or Shaman on the team and they will most likely be a useless global. At least if they're Resto then you can cover them with UA. Soul Swap could easily be swapped (no pun) with something more interesting. Players have often stated it wasn't a rewarding ability to use or play against and there are plenty of alternatives; old school Haunt, Nightfall, Soul Link, Shadow Flame etc?

The loss of passive damage reduction seems odd. Watcher just said in one of his blue posts that they justified adding Demonic Circle as a talent because back in tBC the fantasy of the class was to be a less mobile and tankier Mage. In WoD Warlocks can glyph 10% damage reduction at the expense of Unending Resolve. In Legion however they keep Unending Resolve and lose both the Soul Link 20% and their passive 10% reductions. There is an artifact trait 'Mere Flesh' which reduces damage taken by 10%, but then again Frost Mages get a trait that gives them 9% damage reduction when they Ice Lance so I'm not sure how the fantasy follows there. The bonus tanking ability over Mages is from Fel Armor giving 10% hp and 10% more healing received?


Regarding talents:

T15:
Haunt looks more like a levelling ability now and I would be inclined to pick Writhe in Agony on this tier. This allows Agony to stack to 20 but will this be feasible to maintain with them adding decurse back for druids and shamans? It can be a pain as it is trying to keep your Agony stacks at 10 vs many teams on live.

T75:
Demonic Circle is a talent and is "simplified" into one ability which means we have to make a macro for cancelling the buff and placing the portal. I would have preferred to see them keep this Demonic Circle baseline and perhaps put Gateway as a talent.

T90:
They recently changed Grimoire of Supremacy to now be the old Demonic Servitude. Just as I was looking forward to being able to have my Felhunter back by my side as a decent option I would now either have to pick Doomguard or Grimoire of Service. The new Grimoire of Sacrifice doesn't mention giving you a pet ability and now gives your spells a random shadow AoE proc. Any passive that gives your abilities random AoE is instantly a CC breaking liability such as Unstable Magic for Mages.


Sadly it seems that melee still make it feel impossible to use your abilities. I'm praying they don't just buff the Warlock's stat template's Stamina and call it a day.
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#8 Konjunktur

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Posted 24 March 2016 - 11:58 PM

Maybe Affli is one of the specs that have been harmed the least by pruning, I don't know. I just know I absolutely hate the direction the game is generally moving in, I'm sure you've lost at least something in WoD/Legion (I'm 100% you lost a lot in WoD). Did you enjoy MoP/WotLK/Cata or WoD the most based on how fun playing your spec was/is? (not how good it was or how many op comps it had, just how fun it was/is to play)

Here's pretty much what Cdew suggested condensed into 6 PvP-Perks that are automatically gained as you level through the honor system combined with some changes in the PvP-talents and some minor edits in the PvE-talents:
Spoiler


Do you think you'll like what's currently in the alpha more than for example what Cdew suggested?

Feel free to discuss how you would change Affli to make it more fun!

You're obviously free to re-iterate on what I translated Cdews video into if there are things you disagree with (or just start from scratch) but I strongly suggest sticking to JimJims suggestion of PvP-Perks + changing PvP-talents and just making minor changes to the PvE-talents and the Artifact Traits (in order to not interfere with PvE).

I feel that JimJims suggestion of PvP-Perks (or whatever you want to call them) is probably the only way to get our prayers heard. Otherwise they'll just add 1 maybe 2 abilities back per spec just to calm the masses and call it a day, it'll interfere too much with their PvE vision if they were to do more. And thus we'll end up somewhere similar to where we are now in WoD and the game will still be shit, just not as shit as current alpha.
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#9 Atosy

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 05:31 PM

We got pruned so hard, it's actually unbelievable. So far these are the (important) spells that were taken away from us (im not a MoP-hero, so i can't talk about that):
-Shadowflame (most important)
-Fel Flame (im fine with this),
-Shadow Bolt?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!
-Nightall procc (instant shadowbolt),
-Eradication (20% haste proc for 10 sec),
-Curse of Tongues (returning),
-Curse of Weakness (returning),
-Curse of Elements,
-Curse of Exhaustion,
-Fel Armor,
-Demon Armor,
-Baseline Coil,
-Baseline Howl,
-Searing Pain,
-Rain of Fire,
-Hellfire,
-Immolate,
-Drain Soul (as execute spell)
-Shadow Ward
-Detect Invisibility

so... wtf?:D:D
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#10 Hackattack3

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Posted 25 March 2016 - 05:56 PM

Usually I'm a sucker for these xpacs (mostly from tbc/wotlk nostalgia). However, something unprecedented is happening. This is the first xpac that after following changes and mmochampion, I'm talking myself OUT of into it.
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#11 Railander

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 10:00 PM

You will have much more SS thanks to Soul Conduct (or smth like that), and multi dotting with Agony. The duration pvp talent (12sec) doesnt rly make a difference, you still have to spam UAs, and the buff of Rot and Decay depends on if you can maintain (refresh) your for example 5 stacked UAs.

that makes sense, so i guess its a technical/balancing issue rather than a design one. cases like arenas where you cant just freecast 24/7 but in places like rbgs you have much more freedom.
but then, i wouldnt jump the gun on that just yet. on places where casting is easier (like rbgs) often also equate to a different environment, so what would end up OP in an arena (as spamming UAs) would be balanced in an environment where you're expected to do that. kinda like chaos bolt. you really wont be getting many casts off in arena, and being able to freely do so would be OP, but in rbgs where its not hard to get casts off its also nowhere near as impactful.
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#12 Railander

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 10:04 PM

We got pruned so hard, it's actually unbelievable. So far these are the (important) spells that were taken away from us (im not a MoP-hero, so i can't talk about that):
-Shadowflame (most important)
-Fel Flame (im fine with this),
-Shadow Bolt?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!
-Nightall procc (instant shadowbolt),
-Eradication (20% haste proc for 10 sec),
-Curse of Tongues (returning),
-Curse of Weakness (returning),
-Curse of Elements,
-Curse of Exhaustion,
-Fel Armor,
-Demon Armor,
-Baseline Coil,
-Baseline Howl,
-Searing Pain,
-Rain of Fire,
-Hellfire,
-Immolate,
-Drain Soul (as execute spell)
-Shadow Ward
-Detect Invisibility

so... wtf? :D :D

i understand you have good intentions, but come on, demon/fel armor?
there are also a few other obvious things on your list and while i'd like to address them all im just not in the mood, sorry :(
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#13 Lolflay

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 10:19 PM

i understand you have good intentions, but come on, demon/fel armor?
there are also a few other obvious things on your list and while i'd like to address them all im just not in the mood, sorry :(


Fel/Demon armor were pretty big gameplay decisions in the past, and buttons to push, as was Mage armor swapping.
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#14 Railander

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 11:02 PM

Fel/Demon armor were pretty big gameplay decisions in the past, and buttons to push, as was Mage armor swapping.

fel armor provided much better survivability and also increased your spell power. the only situation where you'd want to use demon armor is if you dont have a healer and you are prioritizing the extra armor over your damage. so basically you just see what you're matched against and cast it once before gates open. COMPLETELY different from mage armors which you did switch during the match depending on what was going on.
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#15 Lolflay

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 08:20 AM

Yeah that was in Cataclysm when they made Fel Armor give you everything. In Wrath and TBC you had reasons to swap, and making Fel Armor the best armor and gutting Demon Armor's 20% extra healing was one the worst decisions Blizzard ever made regarding Warlock design. Picking between damage and defense is something that's super healthy for the game ( which is why defensive cooldowns such as Dispersion are acceptable and cooldowns like Shamanistic Rage are bad for the game ).

This company truly has fucking horrible game design decisions more often than not.
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#16 Wallirik

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 09:07 AM

You got it a bit mixed up with fel armor.

Demon armor in tbc was useless, fel armor gave both SP and healing received.

In wotlk they changed fel armor to give hp% regen instead of +healing received. So you did swap demon armor for defense.

In cata it was also fel armor for SP, and healing received on demon armor.
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#17 Atosy

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 11:30 AM

i understand you have good intentions, but come on, demon/fel armor?
there are also a few other obvious things on your list and while i'd like to address them all im just not in the mood, sorry :(


I just listed the spells that got pruned, some of these spells would be too op in the current game design.

And Wallirikz is right, in Cata Fel Armor gave SP while Demon Armor gave bonus healing on you, so it was a good game design.


I've just got my alpha key, so I'm going to test Affli PvP and provide hopefully non-biased feedback =D

Edited by Atosy, 30 March 2016 - 11:36 AM.

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#18 Hollowinside

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 12:08 PM

''why exactly does legion afli suck?''

4 buttons.

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Because the random name generator might pump out Lortfanden, which sounds like a pretty generic fantasy Warrior name in English, until you realize it means "Shit Fuck" in Danish.

#19 Hollowinside

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 12:09 PM

I actually hope they will listen to Cdew! I like most of his ideas about Affli - if not all - in this video.


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Because the random name generator might pump out Lortfanden, which sounds like a pretty generic fantasy Warrior name in English, until you realize it means "Shit Fuck" in Danish.

#20 Railander

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 04:42 AM

I actually hope they will listen to Cdew! I like most of his ideas about Affli - if not all - in this video.

https://www.youtube....h?v=eVJ44Ypm350

i dont like half of his ideas. very shallow-minded and too focused on "returning the old" instead of taking the opportunity to truly make things better.
the half that i do like are basically just the obvious stuff.

quoting from my youtube comment on the video:

im 50/50 with what he suggests.
the obvious no-brainer changes are obvious, but some of the things he says just seem pretty boring or bad to me.

i honestly fucking hate haunt. for all i care it could be pruned all day.
affli not having fire spells is tough from a balance perspective but at least makes sense from a design perspective. i guess they could at least make new shadow-fire spells to fill these same roles as searing pain.
i used to like shadowflame, but i agree with what blizzard said that after TBC they were wrong to start giving classes new tools they lacked instead of accentuating existing ones. shadowflame slow was one of them. i honestly dont want my warlock to play as a poor man's mage. id rather have my survivability from stealing health or something like that.
teleport is a mixed bag. its really unique (monks kinda plagiarized it but whatever) but at the same time it doesnt quite fit the warlock design, but if i had to choose i'd say let it stay, but then keep only either teleport or gateway. i guess making gateway a talent that replaces teleport (and rebalance it) would be fine.
demon armor and fel armor served absolutely no gameplay purpose besides roleplay, cant honestly care if they're gone or not.
agony ramp-up time is indeed a tricky subject and while i dont have an answer (from both balance and gameplay reasons) i also dont really think dew's suggestion is "clearly" the best one.
i hate curse of tongues. casting slower 24/7 just because your team doesnt have curse dispel (or having someone on your team spam curse dispel even) just isnt fun at all, nor is it fun spamming the curse. to have it in the game it should at least have a much bigger cooldown in comparison to its duration, and maybe increase the slow magnitude to compensate. it'd be a bigger slow but at least its guaranteed to not persist for 90% of the match.
curse of elements was just plain boring. i'd honestly see it gone rather than in the game with its previous form, or at the very least have it reworked to something that feels actually interesting to cast.

now to things i like.
curses should DEFINITELY make a comeback. i have no fucking idea why they even removed them. but i'd like to have them reworked a bit to make them more occasional but impactful (maybe cds or even soulshards) rather than spammy like they used to.
i really liked that donation's idea too.
doom really should come back to afli instead of demo (and give demo something else that makes more sense), maybe with a new form and synergy/decision with our other spells.
i liked howl but at the same time it just feels too identical to shadowpriests fear. if possible i'd like to have it somehow work differently than spriests while keeping the same basic functionality.
i liked the shadowbolt proc, but i didnt like hard-casting shadowbolt at all. it always felt weird. drain life fits better IMO but im worried about the balance implications of having a self-heal as your filler spell. if possible i'd like to see only nightfall proc back but not the spell itself.
death coil was good gameplay-wise but at the same time a bit uninteresting, would like to see some polishing on it.
i also liked the old soulshards system better and would like to see them commit to it to make ACTUALLY INTERESTING AND IMPACTFUL spells with it rather than some of the ones we had (healthstone and drain life ones were just so uninteresting, but teleport and exhaustion were cool)


Edited by Railander, 31 March 2016 - 04:50 AM.

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