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Non-damage buttons are missing


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#1 Nadagast

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 08:56 AM

*
POPULAR

I don't think this is a novel point, but I posted it at a place where maybe the developers will see it: http://us.battle.net...pic/20742944716

Support and/or discuss if you like. At this point, my hopes are low, but, shit, I love WoW arena, when it's good.
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#2 LoveSick_

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 10:39 AM

I share your sentiments. Just fear they have chosen the path they follow, no turning back anymore.
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#3 Elorxo

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 11:20 AM

I share your sentiments. Just fear they have chosen the path they follow, no turning back anymore.


pretty much this
got 0 hope for legion being good at all

i do agree with everything nada said in his post though

Edited by Elorxo, 17 March 2016 - 11:20 AM.

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#4 Siuox

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 11:46 AM

I share your sentiments. Just fear they have chosen the path they follow, no turning back anymore.

Now all the hearthstone players will continue to play wow, because they made the entery barriers so low. Jk people that don't want to play MMOs don't care about how easy the game is and will quit anyway or not buy such a game at all.

Take a look at league, they don't care about low entery barriers. Either you want to learn the game or not. And if you want to become good you have many hyped players/LCS/room for your own improvement, because it has so much depth compared to wow. You can learn something new "every" day. That's the incentive to get better until you will be (almost) as good as the people you look up to - if that is your goal and you put the time and effort into it. And most casuals don't want to put the time and effort into it. That's ok but why asking for the same rewards as players get playing 5x more than them?
The more you learn the more you'll earn (ingame and irl) - Warren Buffett (#3 richest pleb alive).

Maybe MMOs are just a dead genre; Blade and Soul only reached 1 Mio players that tested the game.

Nostalrius is going to realese a TBC server at the end? of the year. maybe some hope if legion is even worse than WOD (which would continue the trend of their expansions)
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#5 Jim_Jim

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 05:49 PM

I share your sentiments. Just fear they have chosen the path they follow, no turning back anymore.


Not really, watch this :
http://legion.wowhea...monk/windwalker (I pick WW randomly.)

You gain "PvP talents" at level 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 / 13, 16, 19, 22, 25, 28 / 31, 34, 37, 40, 43, 46.
And between those levels, in the alpha, you gain worthless rewards, like gold (200), and artifact power. Why not add a external column with active non-damaging buttons (old spells like buffs, and new one, why not) which will be learned automatically in the missing level numbers. Which is between 1 and 28 spells slots. I'm not saying they should add 28 spells, no. But if they saw that one of their PvP talents will never be used because too situationnal, they can add it into to the list. Spinning fire blossom is an example, considering you have the choice between this and the FoF stun.

We still have the "new" PvP talent tree, we will have those abilities, new people can "build" their class by grinding honor (and so, learning how to use spell, while veterans players already know), everyone is happy.

You will still have the "Vanilla nostalgic" part ("If you play bad but more, you will have more than the guy who play better but less") where you have to grind huge amount of honor, but for cosmetic rewards.

Add to this a daily "event" (Like the actual PvE one, or skirmishes one) which increase by a lot the amount of honor win in a random Legion outside area, for people who wants to kill time between arenas by hunting people in the world. Like killing people in Tyr's Hand before a 15min warsong gulch to face an organized team which played 20h/24 to have their rank.

That would add the "mmo" feeling for people who miss it. Mmo feeling which has never been here in WoW beside the end-game, considering in every xpac (Vanilla/BC/Wotlk/Cata/MoP/WoD/Legion), you could level a character entirely alone, elite quest and dongeons where not mandatory to be max level. (Like Ryzom, a mmo where you HAD TO be in a group - tank heal dps - only to level up).
I'm the living proof, i never group when i level a character, never. Even for PvP (Rank 10 during school holiday), i played NEXT to people, not WITH them.

Edited by Jim_Jim, 17 March 2016 - 05:50 PM.

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#6 Dills

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 07:16 PM

Not really, watch this :
http://legion.wowhea...monk/windwalker (I pick WW randomly.)

You gain "PvP talents" at level 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 / 13, 16, 19, 22, 25, 28 / 31, 34, 37, 40, 43, 46.
And between those levels, in the alpha, you gain worthless rewards, like gold (200), and artifact power. Why not add a external column with active non-damaging buttons (old spells like buffs, and new one, why not) which will be learned automatically in the missing level numbers. Which is between 1 and 28 spells slots. I'm not saying they should add 28 spells, no. But if they saw that one of their PvP talents will never be used because too situationnal, they can add it into to the list. Spinning fire blossom is an example, considering you have the choice between this and the FoF stun.

We still have the "new" PvP talent tree, we will have those abilities, new people can "build" their class by grinding honor (and so, learning how to use spell, while veterans players already know), everyone is happy.

You will still have the "Vanilla nostalgic" part ("If you play bad but more, you will have more than the guy who play better but less") where you have to grind huge amount of honor, but for cosmetic rewards.

Add to this a daily "event" (Like the actual PvE one, or skirmishes one) which increase by a lot the amount of honor win in a random Legion outside area, for people who wants to kill time between arenas by hunting people in the world. Like killing people in Tyr's Hand before a 15min warsong gulch to face an organized team which played 20h/24 to have their rank.

That would add the "mmo" feeling for people who miss it. Mmo feeling which has never been here in WoW beside the end-game, considering in every xpac (Vanilla/BC/Wotlk/Cata/MoP/WoD/Legion), you could level a character entirely alone, elite quest and dongeons where not mandatory to be max level. (Like Ryzom, a mmo where you HAD TO be in a group - tank heal dps - only to level up).
I'm the living proof, i never group when i level a character, never. Even for PvP (Rank 10 during school holiday), i played NEXT to people, not WITH them.


That's actually a really genius suggestion and solution
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the only hunter i approve of is dillypoo. the remainder of hunters' existence offends me to my core. when i wake up, i am troubled that in some parts of the world, there are other humans who still partake in slavery, sex trafficking, and hunter playing on world of warcraft


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did you ever get round to taking it? It's actually the best free site i've found :)

Gonna take that as you flopped hard and couldn't get near my score with repeated tries :)


#7 Bigmoran

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 07:54 PM

Man Blizzard makes me sad.
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bigmoran | bobrosslol | skill-capped


#8 Synkz

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 10:02 PM

hey guys
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#9 Naraga

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 11:35 PM

Really disheartening to read this, I had some hope for Legion but I guess it was unwarranted.

Lets hope Battlerite will be able to fill the void.
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S8 ele LSD glad S9 resto shamn glad Thunka

Druid utility is superior to shamans utility already

all the other healers should be buffed up to the point of having a way of not having to outplay 2 dps to survive

Thunka 2.0

disc is way way better than druid.


#10 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 12:39 AM

exDee at people that thought Legion would be anything other then WoD 2.0

honestly the most amusing thing is that they don't dare to use the word pruning any more - instead we get CLASS FANTASY as the indirect justification for every single class in the game losing half their spellbook

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 18 March 2016 - 12:53 AM.

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No because the difference is when I play a comp i play it close to skill cap

if anyone needs to be banned, it's you. You do nothing but sit on AJ being a passive aggressive idiot that nobody likes, sorry you stink of washing up liquid.

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)


#11 Shellytyson

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 12:47 AM

What if the first raid of Legion was equivalent in depth to vanilla Molten Core? People might not be so happy--yet that's basically what's happening in pvp.
these sentences are spot on
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#12 xndr

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 03:56 AM

i wish they would stop focusing on all of these dogshit games like HotS and Overwatch, and instead further developing the game they are actually known for

blizzard thinks they're bigger than what they are, and their ignorance is blinding
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#13 Lolflay

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 07:48 AM

There's one thing Legion absolutley MUST ADDRESS, even with this whole pruning thing, and that's HEALING COMING FROM SOURCES THAT ARE NOT HEALERS THEMSELVES.

CASTERS ( unless your class is a warlock and your spec is Affliction ) SHOULD NOT have any self healing. Ice Block healing, Ember Taps, toss it all out of the window.

CASTER HYBRIDS such as Shadow Priests, Balance Druids, Elemental Shamans SHOULD be able to dish out some offheals that can potentially save the situation, but it should be taxed in some way. A Saving Grace mechanic on their direct target healing? F.ex. Shadow has this thing called Shadow Mend in Alpha - make it heal for approx 25% of someone's health on first cast, Shadowpriest gets debuffed, next heal is 12% of someone's health, so on so on, same would apply for Elemental and Balance. Or make those heals effective but cost insane amount of resources, so you have to choose between damage and healing.

MELEE and MELEE hybrids ( with the exception of Retribution Paladins ) should absolutely NOT be able to dish out any noticable self healing whatsoever. Windwalker healing? Imo remove Surging Mist from them completely, the only thing I'd keep is Chi Wave talent tier self healing. Enhancement Shaman healing? Toss it out of the window, and focus on their aspect of being the offensive support melee hybrid. Warriors, Hunters, Rogues? Remove their self healing completely. Death Knights should be able to heal themselves, but not in their current capacity. Frost should lose self healing completely, while Unholy should keep it. Retribution Paladins should keep their healing as they're the defensive+utility melee hybrid. As for Demon Hunters, I've seen them spell leech from 10 to 100% health in an instant - what the fuck?


Once you get rid of it all, INTRODUCE STRONGER PVP BANDAGES AND ARENA FOOD.

PVP bandages should heal you for approx 60% health over the course of 10ish seconds with a minute ( or longer ) debuff that prevents you from rebandaging.

Arena food should act the same way ordinary food acts. Okay you managed to escape to eat? Good for you, you're rewarded for your possible outplay or whatever.


Also, current healer healing is absolutely unjustifiable with the amount of self healing left in the game. Why do Hunters have a self healing aura for crying out loud?
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[13:49:14] Creed: u have 20min to find a healer, going for a jog
[13:49:53] Creed: nothing like running through the bush being chased by wild animals to get a proper workout
[13:50:01] Creed: you europeans and ur silly gyms


#14 Fakalock

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 08:40 AM

There's one thing Legion absolutley MUST ADDRESS, even with this whole pruning thing, and that's HEALING COMING FROM SOURCES THAT ARE NOT HEALERS THEMSELVES.

CASTERS ( unless your class is a warlock and your spec is Affliction ) SHOULD NOT have any self healing. Ice Block healing, Ember Taps, toss it all out of the window.

CASTER HYBRIDS such as Shadow Priests, Balance Druids, Elemental Shamans SHOULD be able to dish out some offheals that can potentially save the situation, but it should be taxed in some way. A Saving Grace mechanic on their direct target healing? F.ex. Shadow has this thing called Shadow Mend in Alpha - make it heal for approx 25% of someone's health on first cast, Shadowpriest gets debuffed, next heal is 12% of someone's health, so on so on, same would apply for Elemental and Balance. Or make those heals effective but cost insane amount of resources, so you have to choose between damage and healing.

MELEE and MELEE hybrids ( with the exception of Retribution Paladins ) should absolutely NOT be able to dish out any noticable self healing whatsoever. Windwalker healing? Imo remove Surging Mist from them completely, the only thing I'd keep is Chi Wave talent tier self healing. Enhancement Shaman healing? Toss it out of the window, and focus on their aspect of being the offensive support melee hybrid. Warriors, Hunters, Rogues? Remove their self healing completely. Death Knights should be able to heal themselves, but not in their current capacity. Frost should lose self healing completely, while Unholy should keep it. Retribution Paladins should keep their healing as they're the defensive+utility melee hybrid. As for Demon Hunters, I've seen them spell leech from 10 to 100% health in an instant - what the fuck?


Once you get rid of it all, INTRODUCE STRONGER PVP BANDAGES AND ARENA FOOD.

PVP bandages should heal you for approx 60% health over the course of 10ish seconds with a minute ( or longer ) debuff that prevents you from rebandaging.

Arena food should act the same way ordinary food acts. Okay you managed to escape to eat? Good for you, you're rewarded for your possible outplay or whatever.


Also, current healer healing is absolutely unjustifiable with the amount of self healing left in the game. Why do Hunters have a self healing aura for crying out loud?


Basicly everything he said!

I've played Lock sence vanilla, and the reason for having Drain life and siphon life was so that i could use Life tap and "balance" out hp/mana to continue doing dmg (it was always a downhill thing and u eventually ended up without eider hp or mana). Even with this I do less healing in an arena nowdays then any other class in there 9/10 times. Cant realy say that i do need the selfhealing i once used to due to the fact that i have used life tap maby 3 times in total during this entier expansion on all of my 4 locks together.... For me this is going away from "class fantasy". For me locks should be the creapy onces tradeing life for power not the Tabdotbot's they have come to be.
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#15 Konjunktur

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 01:22 PM

I agree with pretty much every single word that has been said in this thread. I also find it pretty hilarious how on the EU forums Blizzard hasn't even opened a Legion PvP Feedback section, considering that's where the largest PvP crowd is located.

On topic:

It's rediculous how pretty much every single spec is being reduced to a damage bot. Like Feral doesn't even have Cyclone anymore, the most iconic spell in PVP for the class since the inception of arenas. Literally everything that made the spec fun since wotlk/cata/mop has been taken away and nullified by wod/legion. Similar things are happening to a lot of specs, most of them actually!

Sure the damage rotations might be slightly more fun now than ever before, but what does that matter for if everything you do is just stand there and smash damage? In a PvP setting no one's going to like that in the long run, in PvP it's the other things, the non-damage things, the things that make you stand out that makes it fun. If you're pressing 1-2-3-4 or 1-2-proc-2-4-5 to do optimal damage plays a minimal role in that, it certainly doesn't make up for everything we're all losing.

And Blizzards' defence is obviously "but almost everything is there as a talent option, and we even made new CLASS FANTASY spells!". The only issue with that (just as Nadagast said) is that you can only pick 1 talent per row so instead of having say 15 abilities/passives as we used to pre-pruning/classfantasy we now have access to only 5 at a time.

On top of that they're straight up removing a lot of good old X abilities (as Dillypoo described them in the thread) and replacing them with new plain stupid Y (CLASS FANTASY SPELLS rofl) abilities. A lot of times they don't even replace them at all, and when people ask why a certain ability was removed/replaced all they can say do is mumble something about 'class fantasy' which is really just an alias for 'further pruning'. Because they can't really shout pruning again like they did in WoD because people will instantly realise what's going on.

exDee at people that thought Legion would be anything other then WoD 2.0

honestly the most amusing thing is that they don't dare to use the word pruning any more - instead we get CLASS FANTASY as the indirect justification for every single class in the game losing half their spellbook


It's not often I agree with you, but holy crap I thought the exact same thing as soon as I saw the first class descriptions / patch notes.

Pretty much every single delete of non-dmg abilities they've done in Legion, either through making it share with some other crucial ability or by straight up removing it - have been wrong. With very few exceptions, mostly fixing issues that we're brought with the first wave of pruning (WoD).

If there's to be any hope what so ever for PVP in this game going forward we need to rally, we need to show Blizzard with a united voice that we absolutely need more non-rotational abilities in the game like CC/Stances/Buffs/Hurricane/Spell Reflection/Grounding&WindShear etc. It probably won't happen, but one can wish right...

I really like JimJims suggestion, +1
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#16 Dreoras

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 01:23 PM

Many people will probably hate or agree with me, but the reason buttons were removed was because casual players with IQ lower than their BMI who dedicate their life to this game demand that Blizzard tailors the game to their needs so they can feel more equal to players who actually have gamesense and understand game mechanics.

The "silent majority" will always win and PvP'ers especially on the top of the ladder who give feedback on about the game should be will not be heard under the shrieking of the casual players.

We gon have to deal with it or somehow convince Blizzard to hire players who know how to fix this game.

Solid post btw i agree with u
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#17 Khurak

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 01:29 PM

There's one thing Legion absolutley MUST ADDRESS, even with this whole pruning thing, and that's HEALING COMING FROM SOURCES THAT ARE NOT HEALERS THEMSELVES.

CASTERS ( unless your class is a warlock and your spec is Affliction ) SHOULD NOT have any self healing. Ice Block healing, Ember Taps, toss it all out of the window.

CASTER HYBRIDS such as Shadow Priests, Balance Druids, Elemental Shamans SHOULD be able to dish out some offheals that can potentially save the situation, but it should be taxed in some way. A Saving Grace mechanic on their direct target healing? F.ex. Shadow has this thing called Shadow Mend in Alpha - make it heal for approx 25% of someone's health on first cast, Shadowpriest gets debuffed, next heal is 12% of someone's health, so on so on, same would apply for Elemental and Balance. Or make those heals effective but cost insane amount of resources, so you have to choose between damage and healing.

MELEE and MELEE hybrids ( with the exception of Retribution Paladins ) should absolutely NOT be able to dish out any noticable self healing whatsoever. Windwalker healing? Imo remove Surging Mist from them completely, the only thing I'd keep is Chi Wave talent tier self healing. Enhancement Shaman healing? Toss it out of the window, and focus on their aspect of being the offensive support melee hybrid. Warriors, Hunters, Rogues? Remove their self healing completely. Death Knights should be able to heal themselves, but not in their current capacity. Frost should lose self healing completely, while Unholy should keep it. Retribution Paladins should keep their healing as they're the defensive+utility melee hybrid. As for Demon Hunters, I've seen them spell leech from 10 to 100% health in an instant - what the fuck?


Once you get rid of it all, INTRODUCE STRONGER PVP BANDAGES AND ARENA FOOD.

PVP bandages should heal you for approx 60% health over the course of 10ish seconds with a minute ( or longer ) debuff that prevents you from rebandaging.

Arena food should act the same way ordinary food acts. Okay you managed to escape to eat? Good for you, you're rewarded for your possible outplay or whatever.


Also, current healer healing is absolutely unjustifiable with the amount of self healing left in the game. Why do Hunters have a self healing aura for crying out loud?


Perfectly said but i'm afraid that's never gonna happen cause after they introduced healing to all classes after wotlk people got used to it and cant play without it (this is a casual game and if x class can do it that means every other class must do it also cause if not it ain't fair by some retarded logic), for an example look at tbc wotlk mage / rogue 2v2 games and mage / rogue now games. I used to have so much respect when it came to that combo before now its just pathetic how simple it is. O herp derp open on x target cc other, fuck we got low what now? I know lets heal all of our hp without any effort cause i can press a button and go afk till i get full hp and lets try it again, if we fail we can just reset our cds and do it again h3h3h3. Now imagine how much butthurt there would be if they removed all that retarded non hybrid healing (even hybrids should heal for minimum amount but give them back their god damn defensive dispell), Most of the people that would be butthurt are the ones that cant imagine rogues /hunter /mages etc without heals cause u know... Every class NEEDS a HEAL MAAAAAAAAN it just aint faaaair.

A friend that played a rogue since vannila quit in cata because of recup and his words were :" Every single class is getting a heal now, great they just ruined the best part of the rogue gameplay."
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#18 JohnnyC

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 02:41 PM

I actually discussed this topic with a in game friend of mine.

They say they are focusing on CLASS fantasy , when in reality they are focusing on SPEC fantasy , wich is a totally diferent thing.
This wouldnt be bad if they didnt gutter CLASS fantasy in order to do that, they are basicly picking baseline spells from vanilla/tbc and distributing around/removing mindlessly.

good example of this its warriors, in legion they are removing ALL utility from arms and fury , giving it to protection ? this is really bad design and removes all the "little" fun you can possible have as a warrior in a pvp scene.

every CLASS should have the normal baseline spells , SPECS should add FLAVOUR to the CLASS, with some changes in way to deal damage and utility wise (both in pve and pvp), DONT REMOVE that same FLAVOUR from the CLASS

Some examples to fix this :

spell reflect baseline, prot would have mass reflect instead and around same cd,

All hunter specs would have traps but survival would have a "scatter" to get easier traps by himself

All warlocks would have dots and curses , but affliction would have access to more curses and like one more dot , demo to more demons and destruction to more direct damage spells. but both demo and destru would still have baseline curses and dots.

All dks would have access to the same diseases while UH could have one more disease that would be an MS effect

etc ...

I just came with this right now and i dont even get paid , so shouldnt be too hard for them to come up with even better ideas.

The goal for class fantasy should be that you feel like a "warrior/mage/whatever" FIRST , then you would pick your spec and add some FLAVOUR to the class fantasy , this should be done without losing the feeling that youre still that class tho.

Another thing is , they are revamping a lot of the classes and giving new "resources " but the truth is that if you look at it closely the classes are even more homogenized in legion than they ever were.

Almost every class goal is to fill up a bar and then dump that same bar (kinda like demo locks since the introduction of fury ) with around 1/2 generators with diferent names for diferent classes.

hell if you look at the new class (DH) and compare it to DK's and monks when they were released ,you can see legion complexity and how bad its gonna be if they dont change anything, DH has literally 2 active buttons , one for generation of fury , other to dump it, the rest its all cd based .

WoW business model its fucked up at the moment, cause for some reason they dont understand that by catering the casual players you lose the high end part , both pve and pvp , and without those "high end players" the casuals will leave since they got no "inspiration" to get better. with the game giving you the feel of "achievement" to easily you will move to other games faster.

look at tittles for example, back in tbc you had a really low number of tittles, mostly coming from pvp .now you can literally do nothing "big" and get awarded with a tittle randomly (most of my tittles i dont even remember how i got them)

they always said focus was on pve but you can even see the game faling apart in pve,

Most pve guilds are completly falling apart before legion even hits because 2 main reasons (wich affect how the future of the game will be):

one its Player pool , with the loss of subs you cant really recruit any new members to replace ppl that stopped .

second , within the pool you still have , most players that pve dont really care about raiding mythic if they already cleared LFR/normal/heroic raids since they already have that sense of "achievement"

So by making this game easier and easier to get that "feeling of achievement" you are actually killing the game by itself, both in pve and pvp.

in conclusion, by removing abilities they are actually fucking up their own "catering to the casual" business model while removing the will to play for the hardcore ones .

casuals with less buttons = less things to learn/master ,wich = bored really fast

hardcores with less buttons= less things to press (wich in pvp creates a low chance to outplay ppl , and this way making comp>player instead of player>comp)

but who knows, maybe blizzard actually listen to people who want this game to be good and still fix some of the retarded shit they've done in wod/legion

Edited by JohnnyC, 18 March 2016 - 02:52 PM.

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#19 Cakesz

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 03:50 PM

exDee at people that thought Legion would be anything other then WoD 2.0


More like Cata 4.0

Dunno about others, but I actually miss when trinkets weren't actually just totally irrelevant stat upgrades.

I know this isn't so much an Arena thing, more of an overall PvP thing, but it also expresses how Arena has gone, in Vanilla I remember having like 10+ triinkets, Tidal Charm, Engineering reflect trinkets, Timbermaw healing trinket, Lifegiving Gem, Shard of the Fallen Star...for example, it seems just like choice has just disappeared from the game, everything that isn't a straight damage upgrade is largely irrelevant.

I miss people being creative with builds, like Elemental Mages (Fire/Frost spec) and things like that, even stuff like the whole 19/52 Holy/Prot paladins, which was OP as fuck, at least was something new and interesting.

Now it's like, everyone is the exact same, every gear set, talent set, glyph set, might as well just come from an assembly line.

Super dull and lacking of anything interesting or new.
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#20 Burtmage

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Posted 18 March 2016 - 04:51 PM

Many people will probably hate or agree with me, but the reason buttons were removed was because casual players with IQ lower than their BMI who dedicate their life to this game demand that Blizzard tailors the game to their needs so they can feel more equal to players who actually have gamesense and understand game mechanics.

The "silent majority" will always win and PvP'ers especially on the top of the ladder who give feedback on about the game should be will not be heard under the shrieking of the casual players.

We gon have to deal with it or somehow convince Blizzard to hire players who know how to fix this game.

Solid post btw i agree with u


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