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Arena DK 2v2 Theorycrafting

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#1 Ooshamanoo

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 10:35 AM

Hi there, I've been reading through the 6.2.2 DK stats stuff and it led me to consider an arena game I played yesternight!
Le Scenario
Rdruid / Fdk (me) vs Dpriest / Fdk(enemy)
After the game was over and somehow I managed to kill the disco I looked through the damage me and the other DK did.
How the game went ... Of course it was the standard priest "I'll dispell ALL your things!" however I was able to stick him fairly well while my druid stood in Africa healing me and cycloning sometimes. I spent a lot of tank in Tank presence while I was getting trained and dispelled and I sat there death striking / death siphoning in between listening to my druid cry about priests dispelling. I forced cds on my dmg cds but had to immediately sit in tank presence afterwards to avoid dying to the enemy DK. Eventually the priest fell over and we won but it led me to look at the damage meters to see why exactly the game went the way it did.

I compared the damage done (of course flat his was more because of absorbs but it wasn't overwhelming. It made me think if it was healer /dk mirror and his healer was a druid or monk my damage would have been more. The reasoning for this mainly is I was able to stack necrotic plague on the enemy dk and healer whereas he just tunneled me.
I then decided to armory the guy and compare what the differences were in terms of talents and what we are wearing. The results are ones that puzzle me.
NOTE: I can't post links but my DK is listed in my profile and the enemy is a DK on EU called Øvêr - Dun Modr

So as you will be able to see (hopefully) that there are some big differences in gear. Mainly I'm not geared correctly I think. But I chose to go 4pc because I thought the proc sounded really good. It then occured to me that his versatility / mastery being higher than mine might outweigh the 10% bonus I get by having a flat damage increase all of the time. I don't know if that's legitimate and if it why.

But what really baffled me was his chice of lvl65 talents. Now there's a couple of reasons for this. I've seen a variety of DKs using different talents here. Here's my understanding of what I think they do.
Blood tap: procs somehow and refreshes deaths on use (not sure if worth)
Runic Empowerment: Over a short duration DD comps I think this one reads to be the best
Runic Corruption: The longer the fight the stronger this becomes I think.

Those are assumptions made from reading the tooltips so confirmed Not fact. My enemy DK was using Runic Empowerment... I figured in short fights it seems viable but not dk/healer vs dk/healer unless he planned on finishing me ASAP (a viable plan with a disc healer maybe?).
I've always used Runic Corruption as I feel it gives me a strong case of solid uptime with maybe 1 - 3 seconds (how it FEELS not legit math) of waiting for a rune to be up.

I worked out that per Frost Strike both have a 37.5% (again this can be wrong it was done on the fly) proc chance per cast of Frost Strike. I thought about that for about 15minutes and I feel that Runic Corruption is definately the better choice there.. But is it? Idk.

I also looked at the spells cast and what did the most damage for each of us. Frost Strike did a lot. My Necrotic plague did a lot more than his (being able to hit him and his healer) and my auto attacks were a large majority of my damage (mainly spamming death strikes out of burst cds).
I see a lot of people love Obliterate. I don't value it very highly. I feel it's only viable while hitting a meele dps from his back or hitting casters anywhere. Other than that I prefer the use of Frost Strike for my KM procs and howling blast. Of course I'm running the 4pc which means I have to use Obliterate on proc to try and generate the 10% dmg debuff to increase my burst potential. I feel like this works out well and I've even forced cds in tank stance doing this. But is it optimal? I'm not sure... On the surface it seems like a good idea to me (hence why I'm doing it) but... Is it? Idk.

I think that's all I have to ask, thank you for taking the time out to read I much appreciate. I'm a DK with 1day played so any help I can get is awesome! Thanks :D (I can't post logs or something having written this at work but I hope the armories can give an understanding along with how I described the 2s fight)
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#2 Relentless

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 12:01 PM

1.) Blood tap is better than any of the other 65 talents (except sometimes runic corruption when running Breath of Sindragosa, which we don't do as DW frost). It allows you to pool 2 death runes for burst opportunities / when you need to strangulate. Take it and get used to using it, i use an addon called "needtoknow" to track how many stacks of it i have so they don't get wasted.

2.) 4 set or not is just personal choice, most high rated DK's i've seen tend to go 2 set (i personally choose this route too). Either way the difference is minor, I just prefer not to have to obliterate for the extra damage as like you said the damage is usually pretty bad.
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#3 Ooshamanoo

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 03:55 PM

I suppose people find it more viable to instantly be able to silence / dps rather than following the runic corruption patter so I can try that ^^ I suppose as far as everything else goes as a DK hitting hard should be easy enough without the 4p even though I find the free procs of howling blast / icy touch extremely useful for dispelling. Even though it's a dps loss it does add more credibility to the 4pc by giving additional use to Obliterate.
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#4 Relentless

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 08:17 PM

The difference really is minor between 4p and not, one of the main reasons i don't like using it is that i find myself wanting to obliterate more than i should be just to fish for procs for the extra 10% damage.

Also bare in mind that you don't get the extra 10% if you use the proc to dispell, and its also only 10% extra for who gets hit by the free howling blast, so if you use it then swap the new target won't be getting the extra 10%.
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#5 Maxish

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 08:25 PM

sry wrong chat

Edited by Maxish, 02 December 2015 - 08:46 PM.

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#6 Ooshamanoo

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 11:57 AM

I've been playing around with the 2set now since the bonus honor made it much easier to acquire additional gear. I'm not sure about you but the "feel" of the 2pc with a flat mastery and versatility increase actually makes me feel weaker... I feel like my ability to kill things has diminished.I just felt like it takes longer to kill stuff when i'm going "ham" not really sure why that is. Maybe the 10% is worth it with the 4pc
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#7 Fakalock

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 12:38 PM

Vearsa over the 4pc can have to do with the fact that the top players focus on 3s and not 2s. And dk's are often trained. Therefor verso for more survival :) I dont play dk so i dont know but thats how it works for ferals/boomkins and locks :)
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#8 Ooshamanoo

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 01:07 PM

Yeah I can understand the versatility bonus for 3s is extremely useful, but with a mastery + versatililty item I gained about 10% overall damage increase from versatility and mastery which should mean overall more damage more consistently since I'm not relying on a proc to grant me a damage bonus of the same amount... When I get some free time I hope to get a 3s group to try and test how things feel wearing both sets. I definately feel weaker wearing the 2pc for 2s and in 3s I know the viability of it increases a lot since it reduces the worthiness of the swaps onto me... Even though so far in my 3s experience (i last played Fdk / Enhance / Rdru) I never got focused which was fun. :D
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#9 Cenobite

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 02:22 PM

Vearsa over the 4pc can have to do with the fact that the top players focus on 3s and not 2s. And dk's are often trained. Therefor verso for more survival :) I dont play dk so i dont know but thats how it works for ferals/boomkins and locks :)

Every team that decides to train my dk end up losing, simply becouse my dk has all the tools to tank any retard withouth problems.

I will never understand why people think they can train a dk and be successful in the match. moreover those tryhards rogues that open 1vs1 in battlegrounds o_O
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#10 Relentless

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 03:13 PM

Every team that decides to train my dk end up losing, simply becouse my dk has all the tools to tank any retard withouth problems.

I will never understand why people think they can train a dk and be successful in the match. moreover those tryhards rogues that open 1vs1 in battlegrounds o_O


DK is a very viable target to kill for any wiz cleave. One of the only DK teams in the latest GCD tournament (balance and blackjeff) lost hard to godcomp with the DK dying first everytime (except the last game which was a troll WW - DK - Feral setup as they knew they had no chance)
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#11 Ooshamanoo

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 03:46 PM

yep I find that I have to insert myself into walls to survive vs boomkins and warlocks and hunters
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#12 Jim_Jim

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 05:02 PM

The 4-part seems to work with all the frost mage's spells. If you want to play DK/mage/x, which was, for the very few queues i made with this comp (last season, without full gear), really insane for damage.
I should try it again, i wonder if it could work against the popular comps.
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#13 Cenobite

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 07:16 AM

DK is a very viable target to kill for any wiz cleave. One of the only DK teams in the latest GCD tournament (balance and blackjeff) lost hard to godcomp with the DK dying first everytime (except the last game which was a troll WW - DK - Feral setup as they knew they had no chance)

wrong, Swap to spellshattering/spellbreaker weapon/weapons, use deathstrikes, deathsiphons, interrupt dps,swap blood presence, use ams when needed and stay near pillars. there you go enjoy tanking wiz cleave. I'm sorry "pro stars" like blackjeff can't tank wiz cleaves,however im not surprised. The only good dk's are those who played the class since WOTLK, hence why those players still have a sense of arena awareness, unlike the new "pro stars" who stick to play the bread and butter shit and can't think far ahead.

I still remain with my point, there's no way a DK is a viable kill target by wiz cleaves or any other comp unless the dk fucked up with cds as well as not having any arena awareness. Anyway supposing the DKh has not even a good strong defensive cooldown up, GOOD dk's will always be aware of that and be playing near pillars unlike blackjeff/mes and other supposed "good dks" which go yolo mode and are overconfident of themselves.again the only good dks are those who play ofensively in defensive positioning, not the otherway around at least vs wiz cleaves it doesn't work like that
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#14 leek

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 08:39 AM

wrong, Swap to spellshattering/spellbreaker weapon/weapons, use deathstrikes, deathsiphons, interrupt dps,swap blood presence, use ams when needed and stay near pillars. there you go enjoy tanking wiz cleave. I'm sorry "pro stars" like blackjeff can't tank wiz cleaves,however im not surprised. The only good dk's are those who played the class since WOTLK, hence why those players still have a sense of arena awareness, unlike the new "pro stars" who stic to play the bread and butter shit and can't think far ahead.

I still remain with my point, there's no way a DK is a viable kill target by wiz cleaves or any other comp unless the dk fucked up with cds as well as not having any arena awareness. Anyway supposing the DKh has not even a good strong defensive cooldown up, GOOD dk's will always be aware of that and be playing near pillars unlike blackjeff/mes and other supposed "good dks" which go yolo mode and are overconfident of themselves.again the only good dks are those who play ofensively in defensive positioning, not the otherway around at least vs wiz cleaves it doesn't work like that


if only the game played out like that =))). ignorance is bliss
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#15 Cenobite

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 09:33 AM

if only the game played out like that =))). ignorance is bliss

please feel free to elaborate why it's ignorance?. I don't have any problems vs wizard cleaves and at least any DK with an average sense of how to play dk shouldn't as well, probably i don't find them big deal since most of them are predictable as fuck and nowhere near to what an LSD used to be in WOTLK(i am glad i fought dozens of them becouse they made me stronger), which for your information was way harder than any supposed "god comp"(i don't even know why the name of god comp when it's a worse variation of shatterplay lol)frozen chicken or any other spellcleave.
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#16 Mish

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 10:49 AM

wrong, Swap to spellshattering/spellbreaker weapon/weapons, use deathstrikes, deathsiphons, interrupt dps,swap blood presence, use ams when needed and stay near pillars. there you go enjoy tanking wiz cleave. I'm sorry "pro stars" like blackjeff can't tank wiz cleaves,however im not surprised. The only good dk's are those who played the class since WOTLK, hence why those players still have a sense of arena awareness, unlike the new "pro stars" who stick to play the bread and butter shit and can't think far ahead.

I still remain with my point, there's no way a DK is a viable kill target by wiz cleaves or any other comp unless the dk fucked up with cds as well as not having any arena awareness. Anyway supposing the DKh has not even a good strong defensive cooldown up, GOOD dk's will always be aware of that and be playing near pillars unlike blackjeff/mes and other supposed "good dks" which go yolo mode and are overconfident of themselves.again the only good dks are those who play ofensively in defensive positioning, not the otherway around at least vs wiz cleaves it doesn't work like that

please feel free to elaborate why it's ignorance?. I don't have any problems vs wizard cleaves and at least any DK with an average sense of how to play dk shouldn't as well, probably i don't find them big deal since most of them are predictable as fuck and nowhere near to what an LSD used to be in WOTLK(i am glad i fought dozens of them becouse they made me stronger), which for your information was way harder than any supposed "god comp"(i don't even know why the name of god comp when it's a worse variation of shatterplay lol)frozen chicken or any other spellcleave.


You are a special little fella. My new favorite AJ poster. I love you special guy!
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#17 Cenobite

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 10:54 AM

You are a special little fella. My new favorite AJ poster. I love you special guy!

I love how you have 0 valid arguments, i guess the special guy is you since you can't keep on a discussion.
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#18 leek

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 11:01 AM

please feel free to elaborate why it's ignorance?. I don't have any problems vs wizard cleaves and at least any DK with an average sense of how to play dk shouldn't as well, probably i don't find them big deal since most of them are predictable as fuck and nowhere near to what an LSD used to be in WOTLK(i am glad i fought dozens of them becouse they made me stronger), which for your information was way harder than any supposed "god comp"(i don't even know why the name of god comp when it's a worse variation of shatterplay lol)frozen chicken or any other spellcleave.


you cant compare the game back then to the game right now, thanks for the information though helped me widen my perspective
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#19 Relentless

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 11:21 AM

The only good dk's are those who played the class since WOTLK, hence why those players still have a sense of arena awareness, unlike the new "pro stars" who stick to play the bread and butter shit and can't think far ahead.


mes and other supposed "good dks" which go yolo mode and are overconfident of themselves


Surely trolling, calling out a player as "supposedly good" who's had glad every season and 5 rank 1s (all with DK i believe) when you have no credentials to back up anything you are saying...
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#20 Ooshamanoo

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Posted 04 December 2015 - 12:22 PM

Please keep trolling to a minimum its difficult for me to comment back to this... Please stay on topic <3
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