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If you beta'd WoD you let us down.

beta testing wod legion

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#21 ottishen

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 12:46 AM

When everything you have to go by is skirmishes with random people against other random people combined with that number tuning were among the last things done in the beta, it was not easy to know what would actually happen.
It was hard to predict and give feedback on immortal enh shamans when their healing/damage was nothing as it is on live. It was hard to see how dumb mage CC were when your teammates broke it instantly (and your damage was lower than that of most healers). Druids could outheal 5 people with rejuv->swiftmend spam (which was obviously going to get nerfed) so it was impossible to draw any conclusions about anything else with them.

In most arena games I played on beta you either faced really bad people or classes with obviously broken mechanics, neither of which was a solid ground for more than guesswork of what WoD would be like. There was no mmr system in place so even if you did end up queing with friends instead of randoms you would end up facing very unorganized teams which you steamrolled simply because of their lack of coordination.

The fact that Blizzard did not actually listen to and fix most real problems didn't really help either. As an example, we were pretty many complaining about how giving Silence to disc priests was just covering up the real problems with the spec but they went through with it anyways. Disc was carried by Silence at the start of the expac and the moment it got nerfed they disappeared from the ladders.
Beta keys were also given to most people that had played the game for a long time, most of which were not high-end PvPers. The main source of feedback was NOT coming from Gladiators but from low rated players that just happened to have played the game since forever. All you need to do is to go to the official forums to see the level of quality of most of the feedback.

All in all, the beta servers were not set up in a way that made PvP testing really possible. We would have needed rated PvP as well as some sort of group finder system (like the one they have in the game now) to actually find decent players and play decent comps.
Of course the second problem (and most likely the reason why they didn't do this) is that in order for that to work, a lot of people need to play. The sample size of players with any form of arena experience, even 2200+, would be very small on the beta so the amount of good feedback would be very limited (and the queues long for the few good people). Unfortunately it is the only way if they want to get something out of PvP beta testing.

Edited by ottishen, 16 October 2015 - 12:47 AM.

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#22 Bawn

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 12:54 AM

i said this before but they really should consider giving out betas to high rated players (at least every 2.7+ player, if anything)

wod beta literally had 1 decent-ish player every 15 skrim que into complete backpedaling mongoloids

not to mention ques were barely popping and when they do you get these people

basically all im asking is they stop giving out beta codes to streamers and websites to "giveaway" and actually control where every beta key goes, maybe then they will get consistent feedback about broken shit

Edited by Bawn, 16 October 2015 - 12:55 AM.

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#23 ysnakewoo

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 12:57 AM

Classic AJ response.

The time is now to intervene on Legion. They're in the process of rolling out beta. I think its a well-timed post tbh.
We need a real beta this time around.

We did test the beta, I had a lengthy post that was upvoted on proper feedback regarding nearly all aspects of the game, ranging from PvP to PvE, as did many other players.

I said that melees are going to rule in the first season and that Ferals can outsustain a Warrior fully bursting (you could just go bear form > defensive > rejuvenation on beta and a full recking Warrior couldn't kill you).

I even said that Warlocks don't do any damage in any spec for PvP, and it was true, they later on buffed Warlocks to OPness.

I even told my friend "dude, Hunters are gonna be broken, get easy Glad", guess what, Huntards were broken for the majority of the first season.

From PvE aspect, I made a long post about how the classes feel stale and not fun, everything boiled down to pure RNG procs. Guess what happened?

Crafting was utter shit and it was pointed out in so many posts.

I liked Garrisons, but I wished they were more like DAoC housing instead of the core part of the game.

So, after all my feedback, nothing was changed. Fuck you for being a self-righteous little cunt Voksen.

I'm not even going to play the beta this time. Also, fuck you for shitting on pretty much everyone who actually tried their best to get their word heard. Yeah, fuck you.
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#24 Maleficent

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 01:02 AM

Just to mention it, Arms Warrior for like 2 months exclaimed how fucking awful the playstyle was. Then to top it off, they removed CS from fury lol.

There was a lot of feedback for this xpac. Celestalon is a fuckboy and shouldn't have a say in class design.
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#25 Thaya

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 01:04 AM

I think you should take into account that designers fuck up sometimes

Look at what happened to WoDs solo content. In MoP, people complained A LOT about dailies being 'mandatory' because they had meaningful rewards for PvE - actually usable gear for raiding. People complained that it sucks that you had to do a shitton of dailies when all you really wanna do is raid. So in WoD, they made an effort to make all gear for raiding come from raiding - there's virtually nothing useful you can get from solo or 5 man content (up until recent). They even made an entirely separate loot table for LFR without tier sets, so as to not force raiders into LFR. As a result, nobody ever bothered with the solo/5man content (but complained tons about 'being bored in garrison' ofc). Mythic dungeons and draenor flying requirements are actually bandaid fixes to exactly this problem. They did exactly what the community wanted, it just turned out to be a pretty bad design. It's easy to talk shit about it now, but back then, amidst all the whining about "omfg i hate dailies", these things actually sounded like good ideas.

Regarding PvP. The whole idea of buttons having more impact sounded good on paper. What they wanted to fix is classes having like 80+ hotkeys and a clusterfuck of smaller, barely visible cooldowns, with a ton of various 'micro' plays which are only visible on the UI and can only be interpreted properly by people who are familiar with the gameplay and specifics of all the specs (read: nerds). WoW PvP being unnecessarily too complicated and virtually impossible to spectate were common complaints, "there's just way too much shit going on" is basically a quote. The whole notion of cooldowns being more meaningful (and more visible) and there being less clutter sounded great at the time. Even the idea of no dispel RNG sounded great. It just turned out that everyone was wrong.

Also, design and implementation are separate processes. It's very well possible that Holinka has a ton of stuff ready, but it just never gets actual development and testing time. There's only so much you can do to "push good design" - if it never gets implemented, you're fucked. If it's big system changes, they most likely simply get postponed until the expansion, cuz that's how WoW dev cycle works. And there's indeed nothing a single designer can do about that.
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#26 Wallirik

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 02:05 AM

Pretty sure it's just because the devs are incompetent, and don't listen to any feedback whatsoever unless it comes from some huge US name (only US because circle jerk etc.) via twitter.
Lost all hope in the wow dev team, I don't even know how they can get paid when they can't fix simple bugs rofl

and the amount of problems there has been with EU servers for a lot of months now is just... lol
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#27 Supatease

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 02:29 AM

I would argue that the WOD Beta was poorly tested. There was no encouragement to try serious real 3v3 arena. Most of the testing occured with 2v2 skirmishes maybe sometimes 3v3 which would often just put you in a triple dps comp.

I'm not sure how you could encourage teams/players to want to seriously compete on an invisible beta ladder? Maybe but a Beta Gladiator title? But I would seriously hope the testing for Legion is more in depth outside of people streaming and qing skirmishes and random bgs.
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#28 polesmoker72

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 03:45 AM

has blizzard ever paid attention to shit on beta? i remember wotlk beta from the get go ppl made and spammed videos about ret palas, arcane mages etc killing people in 2-3 gcds and it still went live
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#29 Bootzx

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 03:48 AM

A lot of old posts on this (see wow pvp forums, maybe even necro some aj posts). For me it must have been a signal/noise thing where the hype won out over all the criticism. I remember pvp vids, posts and streams from some of those "famous" pvp-elites saying how great WoD felt. Its part of my point -- that those guys shouldn't be listened to because they're converted blizzard fanbois.

Wod Beta in itself was 2-3 different expansions for pvp, they never completely decided on the route they wanted to take which is why what we have now feels like so raw and unfinished. Where you are right there are some who completely stroke dev dick in order for own personal gain, they ignore countless others it just doesn't matter to them. I would worry more about the people behind the game and not the community, players did not develop this disaster of an expansion they are just forced to take or leave it. Just hope that if the next expansion is bad that it is enough to help us all give up the remaining hope we have for this game so it can rightfully die.

Edit* also with this expansion in general I remember several different MMOs came out and had fairly popular backing at the time and most of the beta and news about the expansion felt rushed in order to derail some of the hype. From a business standpoint its logically the right move especially with wildstar practically being part blizzard and kind of poking at them with the line "the devs are listening" in every other video.

Edited by Bootzx, 16 October 2015 - 03:54 AM.

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#30 Celinedijon

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 08:39 AM

We provided probably hundreds of pages of feedback informing just how trash the expac was looking to be and all of the issues, but blizzard ignored it. Celestalon at some points basically even called players stupid lol.

99% of wow players are stupid tho
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#31 Ventux

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 08:41 AM

99% of wow players are stupid tho

That's a stupid statement
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#32 Celinedijon

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 08:45 AM

That's a stupid statement

Have you ever read the official arena forum?
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#33 amirdaheat

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 09:19 AM

You guys are realizing that Blizzard is pushing for the 1 year expansion releases, when you are on that tight time schedule there is basically no time to do major changes. This happened in WoD and the garrison system, the devs realized the problems that would bring very early on in the development process, but at that time it was too late to do any changes. They said this in an interview btw so I'm not making this shit up.

As for Legion, it's the same story there. Unless you are in the development process pre-alpha, then you have little or no say to how they will design the content. Beta right now is basically a bug report simulator.

It's sad as shit, but yeah this is why our feedback don't matter for shit anymore.
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#34 Eowynnz

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 09:40 AM

99% of wow players are stupid tho

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#35 sarma

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 10:55 AM

I had somewhat hopes for wod pvp when i say they are removing majority of mop added boolshit and I expected them to remove all of them.It wasnt biased and had nothing to do who plays what class or what spec just simply expected them to remove abilities that straight forward SHIT on the game.
Also I made countless amount of posts and even sent them msgs on twitter about it how everything is going to be shit if they keep the meta as it is.

Well guess what they removed 70% of things but they kept almost intact MOP talent trees and glyphs , dispell still on cd and even added few more broken shit such as frozen ammo etc. Haste affecting cc spells is still a thing and so on

But even all that being removed or replaced you can not have a CD orientated game and call it fun. Nothing happens untill you press cd a or b cd and on end of the day nothing will die even with strongest of strongest of cds if enemy healer is able to press his buttons. Lets not even mention that below 40% damp in 2v2 unless you are a combat rogue or feral or (instert op cunt spec here) pressing dps buttons is totally irelevant to 40% damp point or even more for some classes. This meta is somewhat I like to call "Dick healing, downsyndrome meta" where a mentally challenged healer with iq 50 can sustain rank 1 dps for 5+ minutes or even more spamming only instant spells. This is clearly HOLINKA's fault

Its much more rewarding to hide behind a pillar and do actuall 0 dmg for 5 mins untill enough damp kicks in . Whoever figured this out as "well it should be this way should go and fucking kill himself"

I understand that major FAult here is coming from poor class desing and good news is retarded mongo who was in charge of mop class design recently got fired , someone old/new is already in his replacemet. Sadly It took them more then 3 years and 75% of subs bleed out to figure it out. We know all this when mop came out , I knew it first day of mop.

However ill repeat CURRENT PVP meta is something that holinka is responsable for and I dont know if its only me but Im getting suicidal thoughts after 2-3 games or 2v2 or when I even think about ashran or RBGS.

Just my 2 cents

Edited by sarma, 16 October 2015 - 11:09 AM.

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#36 RippedLife

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 11:24 AM

I was really mad at blizzard for basically saying we should not provide feedback before beta because we haven't even seen the new stuff yet - but if you actually report and test stuff IN BETA they don't change jack shit
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#37 user_543622

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 11:25 AM

has blizzard ever paid attention to shit on beta? i remember wotlk beta from the get go ppl made and spammed videos about ret palas, arcane mages etc killing people in 2-3 gcds and it still went live

Beta's only purpose is debugging. Constructive suggestions by the people who play the game (US), obvious imbalances that need changing or toning down, those aren't important to blizzard and they use official forums for these kind of changes (when game goes live). They listen to the majority of the players, who are, as a rule biased as fuck, and always end up with an unbalanced game that they are then 'trying' to fix every few months through patches. This process, sadly, lasts as long as the expansion it self. The cycle repeats.
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#38 Naraga

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 12:33 PM

Well guess what they removed 70% of things but they kept almost intact MOP talent trees and glyphs , dispell still on cd and even added few more broken shit such as frozen ammo etc. Haste affecting cc spells is still a thing and so on

I made a post about this before, but the ability prune comes down to ego and not balance or proper game design.

You have to realize that from the original dev team there is probably no one left. Over the course of 10+ years people move on to other projects, get different jobs, pass away etc.

These devs get replaced by new devs that probably did not even play the original game, or worse don't even play the game right now. So by the time we finish up MoP and WoD design starts, there is no one left that has put work into the game of the past. They hear players want an ability prune, so they go and work on that. But because of their ego, they don't want to remove abilities they put hard work in to design even though we think its shit. So instead they look at all these abilities, mechanics and stuff that they didn't add. That they didn't work on. So the natural result is that all these iconic class abilities get removed while all the MoP and Cata bullshit stays around.
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S8 ele LSD glad S9 resto shamn glad Thunka

Druid utility is superior to shamans utility already

all the other healers should be buffed up to the point of having a way of not having to outplay 2 dps to survive

Thunka 2.0

disc is way way better than druid.

#39 Lloix

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 12:38 PM

@OP the first part of your post was great. The fact of the matter is the 'top' streamers (as in most viewers) are pandering to the lowest common denominator (retarded blizz fanboys) which essentially limits them to not really criticizing the game too much. It is a shame as these people in reality could have a much larger impact, and if they were more vocal about the issues with how PvP works and got the legions of retards to understand these issues it might actually push the devs to take a more serious look into things.

For a while now it seems like it's been that the top 1% of people who pvp (which makes up what ~5% of WoW's subscribers in itself, 150k active was the number I remember seeing above 1800 or something?) are able to understand the flaws with the PvP side of the game, and I just think blizzard puts that behind shit like store mounts since more people buy those than actually pvp.

The PvP summit is a joke, I've asked now at least a dozen times for vanguards or whoever else to make a fake account on this site to 'leak' info on what happened since obviously they all signed NDA's (I just know he's on these forums anyone there could do this though) because at this point it just seems clear that it was some shitty PR event.

The second half of your post is pretty ignorant tbh fam. Especially as an older player, you'd have to remember that during every expansion release and beta phase (for pretty much all blizzard games) people have repeatedly made it clear there were design issues that go completely ignored.

Like Ottish person said, the beta is never even set up for serious pvp testing and it's an obvious reason as to why those issues specifically (referring to broken abilities/bugs) make it to live. There doesn't need to be some incentive to play the beta other than to actually have fun testing the new shit that's coming out. I still have hope for the pvp community that people aren't autistic enough to actually pass on beta opportunities only because there aren't beta gladiator titles, though I could be wrong. More people should be able to get into the beta for pvp reasons (even if it's only on some tournament style realm separate from the 'real' beta server) which would allow things to actually be tested. If they gave out enough passes to the right people you could have some more serious testing be done. As everyone else has said, doing random skirmishes in 2s and just popping all CD's in to see who dies first is a joke of what one would call 'beta testing', same with doing nothing but duels. I'd spend hours in the beta but only if I had 2 others to queue up with, and a group of three other people to queue into, but there's next to no chance of getting that the way the beta is set up.

I'm still half asleep so some if not all of this post might not make any sense.

edit: I'd still call for them to prune even more major offensive/defensive CD's in favor of balancing the game around every global used.

Edited by Lloix, 16 October 2015 - 12:39 PM.

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#40 Avengelyne

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 03:01 PM

Just fyi, the second point in your post is completely wrong and a lot of the first is inaccurate and given appropriate context is also false.. for the most part. (you're right about popular players getting more say and influence).

Most of the disappointment from WoD PvP comes from ability pruning which was Blizzard Activision's design direction for the expansion, with further disappointment attributed to: bugs/exploits, server issues (KT lag, instance aborted, relog queue bug since wotlk) and neglect (Current state of Disc/Ret/Ele/(Previously)WW and (Previously)Warlock/RMD being blatantly OP etc.). Issues should have been addressed in a weekly MINOR balance tweak to be repeated if there still needed adjustments, not obliterating a class in one fell swoop too early (how Ret/Disc was dealt with) or too late (how Warlocks/HPal/BM was dealt with). And stale arena rewards/incentives.

A large majority of these points are being addressed by the PvP talent system which gives Blizzard tuning nobs for individual class balance and adds some of the depth removed from pruning. We've been asking for changes like this forever and Holinka has been listening. He's Blizzard's face for the PvP community and as result gets the brunt of the blame, and in now way is he perfect but there's no doubt recent changes that have been implemented have been good that aren't given credit.. such as:

Separation of PvE/PvP balance, answer to pruning (Legion)
Gear making a very small difference (ilvl scaling, future Legion changes to PvP gear)
No PvE gear in PvP. No more legendary weapon bullshit seasons.
Cross faction Arena
Tournament changes ranging from spectator mode to 4 man rosters
Cracking down on cheating
Conquest catch up

A note about blaming Beta players.. did you consider very few of the top PvPers were actually given early enough Beta access? I had my friend go to the cinematic reveal in Cali to get Beta keys meanwhile 100's were given out to streamers that were essentially wasted. That means there was a very poor selection about who was given the opportunity to participate and provide feedback. Did you consider that the handful of players that were selected gave tons of constructive reports, posts and feedback to have it ignored? Here's a bold one:

Did you consider Beta was actually fucking amazing and live game was a huge disappointment? In my experience in Beta (fighting REAL teams in wargames, EU included, not just skrimishes) it was incredibly hard to kill an opponent or healer through damage, every kill was landed through setup. Turbo training a Disc with purge spam didn't accomplish anything. Comps like Boomkin/Warlock + Rogue were powerful. Caster melee was a thing. Wizard cleaves weren't a thing for the most part, only the best godcomps were successful. It needed some tuning for sure, like gutting combat, maybe making it a little faster paced but for the most part it was a really enjoyable PvP experience (inb4 Ret bias etc.). For a couple months I enjoyed some arena where I could actually play my character and kills were landed in setup and where disrupting setup meant you were going to live.

tl;dr Not all Holinka's fault and he was a part of many good changes amongst the bad, and don't blame the few relevant testers for the shitshow that is this current season because almost nothing is the same, and EVERYBODY (pvp wise) rallied against pruning and oversimplification but that wasn't changed.

Edited by Avengelyne, 16 October 2015 - 03:01 PM.

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http://www.twitch.tv/avengtv -- Follow for Ret 3v3 Arenas on Live and Beta!

I prefer combat because my dong is large and I will face the enemy like a man rather than sprint over to a pillar for a re after my opener is up.

sorry, I don't speak duellist

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