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If you beta'd WoD you let us down.

beta testing wod legion

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#1 Voksen

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 10:34 PM

Figured I'd rant this here.

Background:

I brought this discussion up in a stream some time ago. Of course it didn't go over very well. We're talking about a stream were most of the chat/partners/mods have NPCs and items named after them (e.g. ven, baj, cdew, mes, etc). Some of these people are indirectly on Blizzard's payroll, religiously attend Blizzcon (or are flown in for free), and for better or worse tend to exhibit some extreme fanboi bias.

I have nothing but respect for many of these individuals. But some of their opinions are a joke. What they brought/bring to "the community" should be seriously be questioned. There is definitely a point where you crossover from being less of a player/member of the pvp community, to more of a stoic Blizzard defender, and part-time Activision spokesperson. You can try to be a bit of both, but that is hard/rare. Most of these guys defend Holinka under the guise of "its not all his fault". Bullshit. His job is to push good design changes into the game. This is the mandate and primary deliverable, barring extreme external factors (like CEO/marketing pressure). Either you're good at that job description or you're not. If not, gtfo.

Its no surprise that a lot of these guys are asked to do early testing (alpha, closed-beta, etc). They have an almost direct pipeline to the pvp game devs and balance designers. And they sometimes even get invites to pass around. Their influence is real, probably too strong, out of touch, and just plain erroneous. Other then being yes-men afraid to speak-out, they over-emphasized the cooldown experience and omitted the factual reviews of what changes ought to be made based on skill/success ratios via simulations, models, and collected data. When you emphasize this kind of feedback, you end up with too much subjectivity (in all kinds of different directions), and not enough objectivity.

So there are obvious pros/cons with this process. One of the most systemic issues is the failed case in point --> WoD beta testing.

To the people who beta tested WoD:

You fucking suck and let many people down. You're basically the last line of defense against the tyranny of Holinka and his team. Scores of people would have loved your job and/or taken it seriously. Many followed you from the sidelines as people made videos, promoted how good WoD was going to be, and spammed how good of a design it was going to be. omfg the hype was so real.

Most (not all, obv) beta testers need to owe up to this. You didn't do enough. Yes, the beta fixed a lot of bugs (although these days most bugs are caught via proper software engineering and validation. But it didn't come close to having an effect on pushing good changes into WoD.

I blame the types of people selected for beta testing. After you rule out the random kids selected for hardware testing reasons, you're left with a ton of people who didn't commit to improving the game via outcry, feedback, and distancing themselves from the hand that feeds them.

If you beta tested WoD you probably shouldn't be allowed to beta test Legion.

Edited by Voksen, 15 October 2015 - 10:38 PM.

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#2 Syia

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 10:37 PM

Not sure if trolling. Blizzard hasn't listened to our beta feedback since vanilla.
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#3 Nicholaes92

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 10:38 PM

I could go on a rant about how this whole post is fucking stupid. But I think it's easier just to call you stupid. Stupid.
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AJ's Wall of Tough Guys

i'm not your average aj user bro you're gonna have to up you game little boy.

Also tread lightly my friend, you dont know who you are talking to ;)

who the fuck do u think you are, random fucking nobody, u dont deserve any of my time/effort retard. "tell me that a blizzcon" srsly? great fucking insult m9. dont even talk to me


#4 Metaclassx

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 10:39 PM

We provided probably hundreds of pages of feedback informing just how trash the expac was looking to be and all of the issues, but blizzard ignored it. Celestalon at some points basically even called players stupid lol.
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#5 Voksen

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 10:41 PM

I could go on a rant about how this whole post is fucking stupid. But I think it's easier just to call you stupid. Stupid.


Classic AJ response.

The time is now to intervene on Legion. They're in the process of rolling out beta. I think its a well-timed post tbh.
We need a real beta this time around.
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#6 Maleficent

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 10:41 PM

I'm wondering what actually went down at the "PvP Summit" Blizzard held. Did they actually listen to feedback or what
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#7 Nicholaes92

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 10:43 PM

Classic AJ response.

The time is now to intervene on Legion. They're in the process of rolling out beta. I think its a well-timed post tbh.
We need a real beta this time around.


Beta testers have no say of what is and isn't put in the game. If you think they do you are a fucking idiot.
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AJ's Wall of Tough Guys

i'm not your average aj user bro you're gonna have to up you game little boy.

Also tread lightly my friend, you dont know who you are talking to ;)

who the fuck do u think you are, random fucking nobody, u dont deserve any of my time/effort retard. "tell me that a blizzcon" srsly? great fucking insult m9. dont even talk to me


#8 Voksen

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 10:48 PM

Beta testers have no say of what is and isn't put in the game. If you think they do you are a fucking idiot.


Did you even read? They have a say towards the rest of the player base. All during WoD beta we had people (beta testers) telling us about how great it was. In legion, they almost have a moral obligation to let us know if its good/bad.

And the beta client offers a lot more reporting features. As a beta tester you get access to special feedback forums and in-game forms where you can submit random ideas.

Have you ever beta tested before ever?

Edited by Voksen, 15 October 2015 - 10:49 PM.

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#9 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 10:52 PM

All during WoD beta we had people (beta testers) telling us about how great it was

where and when did this happen?

I was posting about how shit it was from a mage pvp perspective after almost every single painful session of arena skirmishes rofl
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No because the difference is when I play a comp i play it close to skill cap

if anyone needs to be banned, it's you. You do nothing but sit on AJ being a passive aggressive idiot that nobody likes, sorry you stink of washing up liquid.

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)


#10 Voksen

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 10:53 PM

We provided probably hundreds of pages of feedback informing just how trash the expac was looking to be and all of the issues, but blizzard ignored it. Celestalon at some points basically even called players stupid lol.


Then you/they did their job. Meanwhile people not in the beta forums had to scavenge for feedback. Most of what we got was fed to us by the streamers and pvp-favorites I mentioned.
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#11 Voksen

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 10:57 PM

where and when did this happen?

I was posting about how shit it was from a mage pvp perspective after almost every single painful session of arena skirmishes rofl


A lot of old posts on this (see wow pvp forums, maybe even necro some aj posts). For me it must have been a signal/noise thing where the hype won out over all the criticism. I remember pvp vids, posts and streams from some of those "famous" pvp-elites saying how great WoD felt. Its part of my point -- that those guys shouldn't be listened to because they're converted blizzard fanbois.
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#12 Voksen

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 11:01 PM

Basically this whole post is to stimulate some talk about Legion, and I guess, expose once again that Blizz doesn't give a fuck about feedback. That should simmer some expectations about Legion. We agree beta testing did virtually nothing for WoD. And the people who hype'd WoD should just not be allowed to talk about Legion.
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#13 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 11:04 PM

Basically this whole post is to stimulate some talk about Legion, and I guess, expose once again that Blizz doesn't give a fuck about feedback. That should simmer some expectations about Legion. We agree beta testing did virtually nothing for WoD. And the people who hype'd WoD should just not be allowed to talk about Legion.

after I get to play Legion beta for about an hour, i'll send you a private message to let you know if pvp will be WoD level terrible or Wotlk level amazing - how about that?
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No because the difference is when I play a comp i play it close to skill cap

if anyone needs to be banned, it's you. You do nothing but sit on AJ being a passive aggressive idiot that nobody likes, sorry you stink of washing up liquid.

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)


#14 Maleficent

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 11:12 PM

Voksen, you have to remember and understand too that the developers have wishes of their own accord. They design the game with us AND them in mind. Their game is branded by their own craftsmanship and made on their own volition. Unfortunately, the don't seem to be designing for the right crowd, at least in pvp.

I agree with a good chunk of your post; it's a shame you're shunned as stupid for posting something worthy of cognitive though to comprehend. You have my empathy, friend.
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#15 Voksen

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 11:15 PM

after I get to play Legion beta for about an hour, i'll send you a private message to let you know if pvp will be WoD level terrible or Wotlk level amazing - how about that?


Something to look forward to. And I know your opinion is less likely to be biased as fuck.
Now if even 20% of the beta followed through on that idea, with improvements we'd be getting somewhere in Legion.

By improve, I mean where possible:
-- actually play for more than a few hours.
-- actually able to form mature opinions with minimal bias/subjectivity.
-- make candid suggestions for improvement.
-- balance NDA feedback through private channels as well as public feedback.
-- utilize in-game forms and beta forum resources to get ideas across.

If you're a beta tester this time around (legion), don't blow the opportunity. Make yourself heard and tryhard for the rest of the community. Seriously. Please.

We had months and months of WoD beta testing (like 6 months iirc?) and got live/retail WoD to show for it. Result: millions of subs lost. Clearly room for improvement.

Edited by Voksen, 15 October 2015 - 11:29 PM.

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#16 Voksen

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 11:18 PM

Voksen, you have to remember and understand too that the developers have wishes of their own accord. They design the game with us AND them in mind. Their game is branded by their own craftsmanship and made on their own volition. Unfortunately, the don't seem to be designing for the right crowd, at least in pvp.



That is a very good point which I didn't consider. Cheers for it. There is a lot of art/craft involved and the devs don't get enough credit for the good work they've done.
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#17 Nicholaes92

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 11:22 PM

Did you even read? They have a say towards the rest of the player base. All during WoD beta we had people (beta testers) telling us about how great it was. In legion, they almost have a moral obligation to let us know if its good/bad.

And the beta client offers a lot more reporting features. As a beta tester you get access to special feedback forums and in-game forms where you can submit random ideas.

Have you ever beta tested before ever?


You do realize that people who play the beta aren't playing it for a very long amount of time right? 90% of the people who do play it don't finish content. Also most of those comments probably came from someone who maybe have been in their first beta so of course it was fun. At the very start of wod while you were gearing up were you saying "this game is shit" probably not. You were still having fun from the next experience. Every expansion is going to be fun in the first couple weeks no matter what that's a given.

Don't be stupid
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AJ's Wall of Tough Guys

i'm not your average aj user bro you're gonna have to up you game little boy.

Also tread lightly my friend, you dont know who you are talking to ;)

who the fuck do u think you are, random fucking nobody, u dont deserve any of my time/effort retard. "tell me that a blizzcon" srsly? great fucking insult m9. dont even talk to me


#18 Randomguy

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 11:45 PM

So many problems with betatesting for wow arenas :(
1. no incentive to queue wow beta arenas (no reward) -> crazy long queues vs shit teams most of the time and only skirms
2. people who actually queue don't play their "main classes" most of the time
3. Latency ~240+ for EU -> really hard to play as some melee, impossible for classes like monks(ww)
4. people scumbagging around with bugged abilities (fuck you supatease) to dc ppl/instawin which makes it even more unfun -> even less ppl queueing
5. almost no number tuning during beta (lolxd will do numbertuning in the end xd) so the game is incredibly unbalanced (ele being a better healer than restosham)
6. if there is any feedback no matter how well written it will usually be ignored
7. I'm pretty sure the WOD leveling perks weren't even enabled for the pvp premade chars (40%ap buff for hunters, +20%redbuff, cp from FoK,sv trap CD) which change gameplay drastically (I think there was a perk every level in the beginning...system got overhauled @end of beta)

You can't really blame it on the players - it became pretty clear early how shit a few classes were from a mechanical point (arms warrior, wwmonk) and yet Blizzard did nothing. And here we ended up with arms warriors dmg rotation(lololol) and WWMonks using their mobility spells standing in place to do dmg and the rest of the meaningful dmg tied to a melee range channeled spell for which you have to stand in place. And Mages.......

Edited by Randomguy, 15 October 2015 - 11:50 PM.

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#19 Voksen

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Posted 15 October 2015 - 11:46 PM

You do realize that people who play the beta aren't playing it for a very long amount of time right? 90% of the people who do play it don't finish content. Also most of those comments probably came from someone who maybe have been in their first beta so of course it was fun. At the very start of wod while you were gearing up were you saying "this game is shit" probably not. You were still having fun from the next experience. Every expansion is going to be fun in the first couple weeks no matter what that's a given.

Don't be stupid


You're right, its wishful thinking. Which in 2015 is stupid. But lets salvage some facts.

There were nearly 6 months of WoD beta. Multiplied across all the beta testers, that is a tremendous number of testing hours. Its a lot of time to collect information and make changes.

I'm looking at old AJ posts from August 2014. People were leveled and geared by September. So while the last season of MoP was going on, you have this entire "beta community" literally able to practice and chime-in on game mechanics. In fact, many of those pvp-heroes I called out, were playing more beta then live, high-fiving each other and talking about how swag shit was going to be, while the rest of us plebs dealt with Prideful season. There was a lot of WoD-beta pvp activity, and surrounding hype, by October. It probably peaked in time for Blizzcon. Videos were released during those months and a lot of support was shown for the pvp-related changes/aspects of WoD. That is how it was portrayed anyway.

Whether the beta testers were listened to or not (by Blizz pvp dev team), is something I'm naive about. Now we're hearing stories about entire threads being deleted, and any negative opinions about WoD being called out and beta moderators calling people stupid, etc. So idk, but damn if I'm not going to draw attention to process improvements for Legion beta.
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#20 Fizion

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Posted 16 October 2015 - 12:41 AM

It probably went something like this at blizz HQ with the beta data: "pvpers are saying the game is kind of shit." Their response," fuck pvpers."
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