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Divine Purpose Build for Ret


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#1 Garrockz

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 11:05 AM

Sup,

im atm maxing my second Ret in order to go for an DP (not double penetration) build.

I was thinking about taking FV as it'll hurt the most with continous DP procs. Also thanks to instant DS procs able to come from FV and them bring able to proc even more DP procs it might add for some nice pressure building chains and actually makes good use of the ret 4pc bonus.

I dont want to aim for ultimate viability but rather for a more consistent take on ret damage and to have variety from the last 4-5 years of the Glascannon Ret. And because im blessed by the rng gods usually.

I'd go for Versa>Mastery>Haste as it just grants me good survivability and profits the most out of DP as i see it.


Anyone allrdy tested this or even played it on higher tiers? Or general thoughts on this?
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#2 wuzzle

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 11:39 AM

Did not test it this season but last season it felt pretty weak at ~2200mmr.

DP is great if you're lucky (as you've stated you generally are in your post) as you can get a nice DP procc from using a 1HP WoG. Those proccs can also help out a lot if your healer is stuck in a super long CC-chain you can't break.

But generally it's super ass weak if you don't get any proccs at all. It's random pressure that you can't use to finish somebody off with.
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#3 Garrockz

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 02:59 PM

But generally it's super ass weak if you don't get any proccs at all. It's random pressure that you can't use to finish somebody off with.



Yeah thats for sure. But it might also open up kill possibilties where there are usually none and you're not as reliant on your wings as you'd normally be. Maybe good if playing with other classes with constant pressure like affliction or even with destro as they are good on finishing the targets off.

Gotta see how the overall pressure will be with it, but im curious.
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#4 Animefreak3K

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 08:08 PM

I'll do some RBG's now, after that i'll write you a guide about DP.
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#5 Animefreak3K

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Posted 26 August 2015 - 10:13 PM

Level 15:

Long arm of the Law

Level 30

Fist of Justice

Level 45

Sacred Shield

Level 60

Clemency or Unbreakable Spirit. In most cases, Clemency is still the king, two hands are too powerful to give them up.

Level 90

Execution Sentense - a simple Life-Saver. Holy Prism is also nice because of the short Cooldown and the combination of damage and healing.

Level 100

Final Verdict - The best choice. DP with Emp. Seals also works good.


Statsweight:

Versatility > Mastery= Haste > Multistrike > Krit

Versatility is still the king, and you should try to get about 10% of haste of generate more Holy Power. The rest is for Mastery (incl. your weapon-enchant).


Glyphes:

Templar's Verdict
Word of Glory (because you'll heal more with WoG)
Burden of Guild

I played many times with Divine Storm-Glyphe, because i've used is so much that's a pretty nice heal you get.
You can replace the WoG-Glyphe for sure.

Playstyle:

The Playstyle isn't changing that much. Use your "rota" as always. Store 5 HP and laod the up as WoG or FV. If you've got a Proc, try to store (if possible) another 3 HP to be able to use 2 FV.
You also have to "options" to handle DP-Procs and Emp.DS-Procs:

If you have a DS-Proc, most pepole store 3HP > FV and than DS for most damage.
That's the typical rotation.

You also can to this:
If you have a DS-Proc, use it to have the chance one of two procs (DP or DS).
The Difference is, that you can have "save" three GCD's and have your Procs.
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#6 Garrockz

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Posted 27 August 2015 - 09:03 AM

Thanks for testing. Im not really in need of a guide as i'll try what works best for me anyway. But im curious how you were holding off compared to the other dps classes as dp should provide an overall better sustained damage if youre in the zerg for a longer time.

FV is superior for DP build because you can just let them roll. Atm im primarily focusing on managing DP and Divine Crusader Buff. Best way to get to max your dps is to uphold those chains as long as possible.
What i found is, is that if you use DS while both procs are up it consumes your Divi e Crusader buff first and keeps the DP buff. Each time you use a HP consumer you have a 25% chance to proc each buff. And each of those buffs can proc another one. DS can proc DP and ofc the other way around aswell.

So i will be primarily focusing to use DP procs and throw a DS proc in between everytime you got the FV buff up. So DS with FV and Divine Crusader proc > FV with DP proc > FV > DS with proc > everything else.

In terms of Stats i will try out heavy mastery aswell as heavy haste and see how the lower GCD performs with DP i comparison to the higher hits with Mastery.

And i will always go for selfless healer as Sacred Shield doesn't scale so good for ret as it does for holy. Ret hit 96 yesterday so im positive ill get 100 this evening.


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#7 Animefreak3K

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Posted 27 August 2015 - 10:05 AM

Thanks for testing.


You're welcome, but i'm not testing - i always run with DP.

But im curious how you were holding off compared to the other dps classes as dp should provide an overall better sustained damage if youre in the zerg for a longer time.


In many cases it turns out, that overall you're better with DP. The Problem is in Arena, you need Burst. If you use Wings and have procs (DP and DS) your're doing more (burst)-damage as if you go with Holy Avenger. If not, you don't :) .

In RBG you better run with DP, FV, SoR and Light's Hammer for AoE - that's what the original Ret should do in Warlords-RBG.


What i found is, is that if you use DS while both procs are up it consumes your Divi e Crusader buff first and keeps the DP buff.


That was also the case in MoP, when the DS-Proc was a setbonus ;) . Nothing new here.
Both Procs (DP and DS) can proc both, that mean they can proc themself and the other one.

Each time you use a HP consumer you have a 25% chance to proc each buff.


DP:
1 HP = 8% Chance
2 HP = 16% Chance
3 HP = 25% Chance
3+ HP = 25% Chance

DS-Proc always has a 25% Chance for both, because it's like you have 3 HP.

So DS with FV and Divine Crusader proc > FV with DP proc > FV > DS with proc > everything else.


for maximizing your DPS, you always should use a FV and then a DS with proc.
As i said before, you can also use DS-Procs without having the FV-buff up, to have another proc.
This ways, you can have procchains with 15 procs.

In terms of Stats i will try out heavy mastery aswell as heavy haste and see how the lower GCD performs with DP i comparison to the higher hits with Mastery.


No need to ;) .
Mastery is definitly the better choice for DPS. Haste is pretty nice, because you generate more HP and can upload more FV/DS, but Mastery is much stronger for this build.

And i will always go for selfless healer as Sacred Shield doesn't scale so good for ret as it does for holy.


You're unterestimated SH!

Don't forget that it can crit! It you're trained it's the better choice. If not, SH is good.

Setbonus:

Don't use any of these two.
Go full Versatility/Mastery - that's way better.
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#8 Garrockz

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Posted 27 August 2015 - 11:37 AM

You're welcome, but i'm not testing - i always run with DP.



In many cases it turns out, that overall you're better with DP. The Problem is in Arena, you need Burst. If you use Wings and have procs (DP and DS) your're doing more (burst)-damage as if you go with Holy Avenger. If not, you don't :) .

In RBG you better run with DP, FV, SoR and Light's Hammer for AoE - that's what the original Ret should do in Warlords-RBG.




That was also the case in MoP, when the DS-Proc was a setbonus ;) . Nothing new here.
Both Procs (DP and DS) can proc both, that mean they can proc themself and the other one.



DP:
1 HP = 8% Chance
2 HP = 16% Chance
3 HP = 25% Chance
3+ HP = 25% Chance

DS-Proc always has a 25% Chance for both, because it's like you have 3 HP.



for maximizing your DPS, you always should use a FV and then a DS with proc.
As i said before, you can also use DS-Procs without having the FV-buff up, to have another proc.
This ways, you can have procchains with 15 procs.



No need to ;) .
Mastery is definitly the better choice for DPS. Haste is pretty nice, because you generate more HP and can upload more FV/DS, but Mastery is much stronger for this build.



You're unterestimated SH!

Don't forget that it can crit! It you're trained it's the better choice. If not, SH is good.

Setbonus:

Don't use any of these two.
Go full Versatility/Mastery - that's way better.


Yeah ive skipped ret for mop and wod so far as it just aint as much fun as it was in the past. In terms of dmg rota and proc rotation i actually said the exact same thing. Typing here on my mobile phone so maybe i described too inaccurate, but in general we seem to have the same rotation/proc management.

For stats i will still try full haste as im just curious how fast you can speed up the pace by lowering gcd. Not for the lowered cs cooldown. And even if SS might be viable i prefer selfless healer.

And for max burst i will go with the 4set at first and farm versagear meanwhile to test it live and see how it performs for me. Versa will provide more consistent dps. But i wouldnt underestimate extra 9% on the dp chains
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#9 Animefreak3K

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Posted 27 August 2015 - 12:25 PM

Yeah ive skipped ret for mop and wod so far as it just aint as much fun as it was in the past. In terms of dmg rota and proc rotation i actually said the exact same thing. Typing here on my mobile phone so maybe i described too inaccurate, but in general we seem to have the same rotation/proc management.


It seems so, yeah. No problem :) .

For stats i will still try full haste as im just curious how fast you can speed up the pace by lowering gcd. Not for the lowered cs cooldown.


You can trust me, stacking haste while playing with DP isn't worth it, because overall your're doing significant less damage as if you stack Mastery.

And even if SS might be viable i prefer selfless healer.


That's you're choice - and totally ok ;) .
I'm only telling you my whole experience i've done with the years playing only with DP.
SH save you more HP and SS, so you can use it more to FV/DS or a WoG, which helps you overall much better.

And for max burst i will go with the 4set at first and farm versagear meanwhile to test it live and see how it performs for me.


Sure, give it a try ;) .

Versa will provide more consistent dps. But i wouldnt underestimate extra 9% on the dp chains


Fist, we're talking about 6%, not 9%. It was nerfed months ago.
Second, you've much more from Versatility, than from a Setbonus, that you cannot keep up 100%. Even if you have e.g. 15 procs in a raw (DS-Proc also procs the 4pc bonus). If you only change two Items (Chest and Legs), you have about 4,51% Versatility, which is overall much much better. If you're taking no setbonus, we're talking about 7-8% Versatility.
I'm runnig with the maximum Versatility possible for Ret, which is 30,95%.
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#10 Garrockz

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Posted 27 August 2015 - 10:03 PM

You can trust me, stacking haste while playing with DP isn't worth it, because overall your're doing significant less damage as if you stack Mastery.


Have you tried it? Or are you just guessing?

Fist, we're talking about 6%, not 9%. It was nerfed months ago.
Second, you've much more from Versatility, than from a Setbonus, that you cannot keep up 100%. Even if you have e.g. 15 procs in a raw (DS-Proc also procs the 4pc bonus). If you only change two Items (Chest and Legs), you have about 4,51% Versatility, which is overall much much better. If you're taking no setbonus, we're talking about 7-8% Versatility.
I'm runnig with the maximum Versatility possible for Ret, which is 30,95%.


DP profits way more of the setbonus than the other two talents do, so i understand skipping it for those specs. But acting as if you lose so much damage by going for 4pc is just wrong. First off you have the set bonus, which you can argue about wether its worth it or not. I'll do some logging on it myself and see how good the uptime will be. Secondly you gotta see that you're losing Versatility but gaining other offstats of equal height AND the setbonus, so its not just a tradeoff between setbonus <> 7-8% Versatility. And that is not a direct 7-8% damage loss, its just less versatility. I know everyone's into Versa, and thats totally cool with me, but its not like every other stat is completely useless. Only thing that bothers me, is that you lose around 4% damage reduction for the 4pc set bonus, and ret's pretty squishy allready. But time will tell.

Like i said, i dont need a guide, i appreciate that you share your xp with me, but dont take it personally but ive been playing/maining ret for about a decade and i've never just done what others told me. I want this thread to be an opportunity to just share thoughts on DP Builds / viability / playstyles / possible comps / xp so far, not as a place to just try to impose your own build upon everybody else.

Even though thanks for the heads up on 4pc bonus, didnt notice it got nerfed!


On the proc management: Usually id say if you wanna go for a hard swap (or just a bit more burst) and got a ds proc running, store 3hp for FV and then switch with FV + FV buffed and procced DS. For constant pressure it might be better to use the DS procs to try and uphold the DP chain. You do this the same way, or d'you always prioritize DS over standard FV?
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#11 Animefreak3K

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Posted 27 August 2015 - 10:48 PM

DP profits way more of the setbonus than the other two talents do, so i understand skipping it for those specs. But acting as if you lose so much damage by going for 4pc is just wrong. First off you have the set bonus, which you can argue about wether its worth it or not. I'll do some logging on it myself and see how good the uptime will be. Secondly you gotta see that you're losing Versatility but gaining other offstats of equal height AND the setbonus, so its not just a tradeoff between setbonus <> 7-8% Versatility. And that is not a direct 7-8% damage loss, its just less versatility. I know everyone's into Versa, and thats totally cool with me, but its not like every other stat is completely useless. Only thing that bothers me, is that you lose around 4% damage reduction for the 4pc set bonus, and ret's pretty squishy allready. But time will tell.


You must have missed an important point ;) :
I play always with DP!
And, i've tested everything out.

I'm totally against the Ret-Playstyle we have since Cata (Burstplay), whereat Cata wasn't that burst, as MoP and WoD was/is.
I also prefer a more flexible-playstyle ;) .

And to behonest: You're not gaining so much offstats, if you're going with the 4pc bonus. Only 4 Offstats is what you gain. That's not really much. Running full Versatility is the best choice for this kind of build. It is impossible to keep the Buff (4pc Bonus) at 100%! The Duration was also nerfed to 4 seconds. That's what i forgot to tell you, sorry :/ .

Like i said, i dont need a guide, i appreciate that you share your xp with me, but dont take it personally but ive been playing/maining ret for about a decade and i've never just done what others told me. I want this thread to be an opportunity to just share thoughts on DP Builds / viability / playstyles / possible comps / xp so far, not as a place to just try to impose your own build upon everybody else.


I'm sharing my experience with you, which may be the best you can get ;) .
Nobody is playing with DP on a solid rating. I could get higher, but mates quite WoW and i don't find other good mates.

Have you tried it? Or are you just guessing?


I've tried every stat ;)


You do this the same way, or d'you always prioritize DS over standard FV?


In most cases, i try to keep the proc-chain up - so use a DS-Proc if i have one. Don't forget, that i'm using the DS-Glyphe, which grants me heal.
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