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Legion: How to Fix WW by Balance & Venruki


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#1 BalanceRexxar

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 07:08 PM

Lingo
Spoiler


Let me start off this post by thanking Venruki, his dedication towards the monk class is very inspiring and this post wouldn't be here without him.

The main purpose of this post isn't to tell a dev what to do. It's here to tell you guys - the reader's - what to complain about because changes in WoW aren't made by single complaints, if they see an issue being brought up enough times they will be more likely to make that change.

source post: http://us.battle.net...pic/18300188992

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Now I know many of you have no intentions of reading all of this so I took the time to roughly explain this post in my stream and highlight it.

http://www.twitch.tv...xxar/v/10001120

Glyphs: 0-3:27

Touch of Karma: 3:27-7:05

Damage: 7:49-26:32

Mobility: 26:32-32:34

TLDW: Changes I want to see going into Legion - 32:50-37:52

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As for the textual post, since many of you are lazy like I am and don't want to watch, listen, or read - here are just a FEW of the many potential solutions that could be made to benefit our class so that it is designed properly.

Now, these changes will all make MUCH more sense if you actually read the post or watch the VoD explaining what is wrong so don't jump to any conclusions.

There are so many solutions to these problems you could go any direction and still accomplish the same goal. I'm not saying any of these solutions are the right ones, I'm simply giving a few of many possible solutions while explaining the major issue with these concepts.
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SOLUTIONS

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Mobility: Windwalkers lost our glove bonus, Spinning Fire Blossom, and an easy way to cast our Fists of Fury, all have contributed to Windwalker's poor OFFENSIVE mobility, we can run away fairly easily but if someone is running from you - good luck catching them. Not to mention disable; the worst slow any melee has.

Solutions: Make a Glyph of Disable that removes the root but takes it off the GCD. Another option would to simply make it off the GCD without a glyph. Making Glyph of Freedom Roll baseline, or making it so when we roll through somebody it slows them similar to Flying Serpent Kick, or combining Disable into Jab. The solutions are endless, any would do.
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Glyphs: Our old set bonus in MoP along with our glove set bonus were turned into glyphs when we already had 3 irreplaceable glyphs, this had a severe impact on WW monks mobility and ability to easily use FoF.

Solutions: Make Glyph of Touch of Karma baseline, possibly Touch of Death, possibly Freedom Roll, and depending on the change to Fists of Fury, possibly make that a 5 yard range baseline as well. There are so many solutions to this problem you could go any direction and still accomplish the same goal.

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Touch of Karma: It can be removed lickity split by any paladin in arena by using Hand of Protection, a minor cooldown that completely negates our most valuable one. I don't believe this is intended or balanced in any way and it has been ignored for two expansions now.

Solutions: Don't make it physical, thereby making it so you cannot BoP it, or if you do BoP it, transfer the remaining absorption into a shield for the monk. Another solution could be making some glyph baseline and adding a glyph that makes it so ToK no longer does damage but instead is purely an absorb effect. There are countless solutions that could work, one just needs to be implemented.

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Chi Explosion: Weak damage > Forced to take it because of our 4 set > Forced to use 4 set because of lack of passive defensives for Windwalkers > Forced to use it because of range because we are sacrificing mobility because of Chi Torpedo.

Solutions: Now there are many ways to approach fixing this, you can A. Increase it's damage (assuming you follow the other solutions for the other problems) B. Buff the other talents to increase their stack generation (for example: whenever you use hurricane strikes you gain X stacks of Tigereye Brew).

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Chi Torpedo: Does too much damage and makes us sacrifice defensive and offensive mobility and is poorly designed.

Solutions: Take the damage out of Chi Torpedo and put it into something else like Rising Sun Kick or Chi Explosion (or Blackout Kick)

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Fists of Fury: Is too hard to land and can easily be shut down resulting in massive damage loss.

Solutions: Give us a 5 yard CAST range, not the cone range that the glyph gives, allow us to be able to use it further away. Also reduce it's damage and increase damage in other abilities that won't get completely shut down because of a charge or a typhoon.

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Storm, Earth, and Fire: The problem is that it gives a false sense of damage and pressure. Monks who do respectable damage in PvE don't do respectable damage in PvP, just because monks may seem like they are in a good place in PvE doesn't come close to show how they are doing in PvP as we have seen from the start of the expansion (top of PvE, bottom of PvP)

Solutions: Reduce the damage the clones do and increase damage in spells like Chi Explosion, Blackout Kick, and Rising Sun Kick.

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Multistrike: It is poo poo garbage for PvP and monks have been designed around it. (Battle Trance and Tiger Strikes)

Solutions: Relocate these damage increasing passives and buffs into something that profits PvP as much as it does PvE. Or make it that multistrike works the same in PvP as PvE specifically for the WW class.
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PROBLEMS


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Now, if you are curious about any of these changes or need an explanation, I would highly recommend watching the stream highlight for a vocal and visual explanation, if not here is the text brought to you by Venruki with assistance from myself.


There's been many posts about WW Monks and some of the problems they face. I'd like to represent the class from a very unbiased standpoint and bring to your attention why they're so bad, and hopefully some relatively EASY ways to fix them. This is going to be a long post but I'd really appreciate your input and feedback.

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Glyphs


The problem: Two absolutely necessary glyphs needed to PvP - Glyph of Touch of Karma and Glyph of Touch of Death. Without these glyphs these abilities feel INCREDIBLY jenky to use in PvP combat. Without the Glyph of TOK we'd struggle to use our main defensive cooldown unless we were within melee range of our target. Without the Glyph of TOD it's near impossible to land a target to 10% and have 3 chi left over before they're quickly brought up in HP.

This has been a huge problem this expansion for WW Monks. WW monks had two key PvP set bonuses removed transitioning into this expansion. The first is "Freedom Roll", this was a crucial part of our mobility kit and we can no longer afford to take it. The second being Glyph of Flying Fists, increasing the range on Fists of Fury from melee range to 5 yards.

WW monks need glyph slots opened up and these glyphs need to be added into the abilities baseline. I feel a change like this would have almost no negative impact on PvE and could possibly save the class in PvP.

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Touch of Karma


The problem: Blessing of Protection removes my defensive ability, why? This was sort of a cool counter-play back in the day when holy paladins weren't running rampant. Unfortunately, now they are... and it's a little silly that a healer's minor defensive ability completely renders my main defensive 100% useless. Used to be a little scarier for a paladin to just BoP all of my Karmas because of 45 second forbearance, now it seems like it's worth it 9 times out of 10 and because of that my defensives on an already fragile class is at an all time low.

I'd like for mages and paladins to keep the ability to bubble/ice block ToK because the cost of using those abilities if high enough to justify removing my main defensive cooldown. However, BoP needs to not remove it anymore.

A Very common theme in arena is Holy Paladin/Mage, they can either bubble or iceblock it as well as being able to BoP it, so if I want the slightest chance of keeping my karma I can only use my defensive on one target with the minuscule chance my Karma won't be removed which it almost always does.

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Damage


Where to begin on this large list of problems... How about we start with our basic abilities?

In PvP we are almost exclusively using Chi Explosion because it provides us with ranged damage and the ability to increase stack generation through its 3+ bonus.

Why is it exclusive? What's wrong with Hurricane Strike or Serenity? Well you see, monks have been notoriously known for being "squishy", but with a change to our 4 set which allows a 6% damage reduction per stack consumed for 20 seconds helped with that issue, but it created another one in the process.

Without Chi Explosion, we are squishy, we are squishy because without Chi Explosion, our stack regeneration is drastically reduced, and without stacks, we do less healing, and take more damage. Simple as that.

So what's the issue? What's wrong with Chi Explosion? Well it does doodoo damage.

Our 4 stack Chi Explosion, get this - we spend 90 energy, almost a FULL energy bar to do a BIG Chi Explosion! It still does less than 1 Chi Torpedo.

This brings us to Chi Torpedo, our MOBILITY spell that we are FORCED to use as a damage spell.

Our hardest hitting ability is our roll. This seems unintended or if it was it is a major design flaw and significantly cripples Windwalkers in PvP for these reasons:

1. Sacrificing "rolls" aka Chi Torpedoes - requires us to jump and roll, so that we don't go flying off of our target, but what if our target isn't right next to us? Targets do not stand still in PvP, therefore by making us use Chi Torpedo for damage, we don't get to use it for it's intended purpose - mobility.

2. Mobility is key to PvP both defensively and offensively, being able to reach our target to do damage is crucial for obvious reasons, and defensively for being able to roll to safer positions or to kite.

Now that I've explained a little bit about our damage and how it relates to mobility, let's talk about Fists of Fury.

In MoP, FoF did not require a target to use, in combination with our 2 set (increased range by 5 yards) this gave us the ability to use fists of fury at a longer range.

For example, this is what Fists of Fury looked like in Mists of Pandaria. Let each underscore represent 1 yard.

Me _ _ Target _ _ _

(this allowed my target to be in any of the 5 yards available to my Fists)

In Warlords this is what it looks like:

Me Target _ _ _ _ _

(assuming you have the glyph on which you don't 90% of the time so in reality it looks like this)

Me Target _

Now (even with the glyph) you MUST be in melee range, even if you have the glyph, it is still difficult to land - a lot of the time I find myself pressing W for a second, pressing fists of fury to test if I'm in range only to find out that I'm not even though I can use all my other melee abilities. And every time I test if I can finally get it off, I lose a little bit of distance standing still.

Now that I've address the underlying problem with Fists of Fury, I'll address it's concept. It's a CHANNELED spell. Transitioning from MoP to WoD, the percentage of damage we do in small windows was drastically transferred into our FoF, instead of FoF being a minor damage boost, it is crucial to get as much damage out of it as you can in PvP.

So why is this a problem? It's hard to land and it's channeled.

Melee shouldn't have to cast or channel to do their burst - it's not the melee design.

Even with the amount of CC that was removed in WoD, there is still plenty to disrupt this damage, some favorites that seem to push my buttons are typhoon, explosive trap, the Warrior's charge talent (Warbringer), all of these cancel our fists of fury effectively shutting us down.

And we're not done yet, we still need to talk about our favorite crutch - Storm, Earth, and Fire.

This ability was made for PvE and has no place in PvP whatsoever. If you try to use this ability in PvP (which you are kind of forced to do sometimes) you will find that it is extremely clunky and obviously not meant to be used in a PvP environment. But why not? Here's why:

Mobility: They don't have any, they just walk, any class you put it on can easily kite it, don't even bother using it unless your specced chi explosion because chances are it will be out of range when you use your RSK or Blackout Kick and it won't even copy it.

Damage: In PvP unless you are specifically trying to kill multiple people, it is bad to split targets. This only really makes it good for a comp like Windwalker Affliction warlock, but if you look at comps like WLS, MLS, RLS, all these comps involve the affliction lock doing the spread pressure with the assistance of the other DPS's single target damage to focus pressure on to one target. With WWLS, you end up with minor pressure on multiple targets leaving you vulnerable from a confident and offensive team laughing at your futile attempts to kill them.

So the solution? Hopefully in the next expansion this ability will be removed, but for now I think a simple change of reducing the damage of the clone to make the total damage increase of using SEF so that single target and AoE aren't so widely separated in how much damage they are doing because if you compare windwalker single target to windwalker AoE, the difference is ridiculous.

And finally, the simplest problem of all. Multistrike.

What a lot of people forget is that multistrike is HALVED in PvP. When you make a class revolve around something that is halved you can't expect similar success in both situations which are PvE and PvP. Battle Trance and Tiger Strike's are bad for PvP because multistrike is bad for PvP. The only solution to fix this would be to reduce or eliminate how much multistrike we get from Battle Trance and Tiger Strikes and relocate this damage into something else.

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Mobility/Snares


WW monks disable is the worst snare of any melee.

WW disable: On global cooldown (severely affects your damage rotation), 15 energy cost.

Rogue Crip Poison: Automatically applies on auto attacks. (doesn't affect your damage rotation)

Warrior Hamstring: Off global cooldown (doesn't affect your damage rotation), 10 rage

Feral Infected Wounds: Applies off your attacks (doesn't affect your damage rotation)

Ret Seal of Justice: Automatically applies on auto attacks. (doesn't affect your damage rotation)

Enhance Frost Shock and Frostbrand: 25 yard range on shock and frost brand auto applies on auto attacks. (slightly affects your damage rotation)

DK Chillblains and Chains of Ice: Chains of Ice 30 yard range, costs a global and a rune. Chillblains is easy to keep up as it's a main part of your damage rotation to keep frost fever up. (slightly affects your damage rotation)

WW's are the only class that have to use an extra global to apply a snare to a target. I'm sure that doesn't seem like a big deal but in an ever evolving world of freedoms, power shifting, root breaks, snare breaks and much much more. Having to use the extra global to apply your snare makes us much easier to kite than other classes.

WW's also took a huge hit losing spinning fire blossom, one of our only ways to catch a target running in a straight line away from us. Essentially our ranged snared was removed and it made it that much easier to get away from us. Major issue with this is our uptime on many targets is limited to only stuns.

These issues in combination with freedom roll being taken away from creates a huge issue where WW's uptime is far lower than many other melee.

I just want to conclude this post by saying I love the WW class. The design of the class is amazing they just took an ENORMOUS hit in mobility, snares and damage which ultimately lead to one of, if not the worst class of the expansion. Please send help, SoS.

I had Balance (Steven) help me come up with and write this post.

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And that, is the work of Venruki and I. Please feel free to comment on anything you agree or disagree with but keep in mind - these are not all the solutions we want, these are just possibly solutions because almost all of them are related to each other so whatever solution there is for one thing will change the solution for another.

Edited by BalanceRexxar, 08 August 2015 - 07:10 PM.

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#2 Jaws

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 08:12 PM

Very well thought out, however I don't agree with the WW snare being the worst snare since it lasts 15 seconds in PvP.
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#3 Rexyyoxxx

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 08:33 PM

frost shock worst snare? its dispellable after all unlike every other snare I can thing of while typing this?
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#4 Blameshift

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 08:54 PM

frost shock worst snare? its dispellable after all unlike every other snare I can thing of while typing this?


iirc Rogue slow is (poison) and ferals as well (disease?) for dispellable snares

edit: Frostbrand is a glyph now, i don't think you take it most of the time tho.

Edited by Blameshift, 08 August 2015 - 09:00 PM.

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#5 Nixwood

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 08:58 PM

Fully agreed with Balance
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#6 Mish

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 09:52 PM

Really good ideas, grate post!
I just see the solution to be much more simpler.

1) Remove SEF, and balance the single target and aoe damage of our abilities in PvE around this change.
2) Give back Spinning Fire Bolsom, it will just give that something more we needed to reach some classes who run away.
3) Increase RSK dmg by a significal amount (but stil a bit lower than it was last season of MoP)
4) ToK glyph baseline
5) Freedom Roll baseline
6) +5 yard glyph baseline
7) And ofc make Crit and Multistrike to be the same in PvP and PvE. It is so stupid, pointless and unfair. They cannot balance PvP damage around PvE damage and at the same time have stats which have half value in PvP.
There are classes who have Haste/Mastery as their main PvE stats, and there are classes who have Multistrike/Crit as their main PvE stats. Therefore, the classes who prioritise Multistrike and Crit to achieve their max damage are getting nurfed by default over the others in PvP senarios. I don't know why this is not obvious to them, and why they did this in the first place.

Edited by Manowar, 08 August 2015 - 10:05 PM.

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#7 Divinitum

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 09:56 PM

I think the whole tier 90 talent row is weird.

It seems like it helps with a certain task; AoE (RJW), Single Target (Xuen) and then... there is Chi Torpedo, which has no real place anywhere, except for some rare gimmicky burst AoE meter padding. Currently, Xuen is taken in nearly all situations in raids, even AoE, since the SCK perk does not affect RJW, which is a stupid oversight.

To me, Chi Torpedo is something that should be given to MW as baseline. As for ideas what could replace that talent? Well, since the talent tier has AoE and single target covered. Maybe Xuen could be slightly redesigned to give a burstier gameplay and the third option could be something that improves with your sustained damage and that was scrapped in MoP alpha... Summon White Tiger Statue. I remember when the statue was clicked on by allies, it would grant them a damage buff of some sort, which was the reason it was removed since it was a charge system and WWs would abuse it by constantly resummoning it. (?) The current incarnation doesn't have like it was in beta, they could totally redesign it.

Other removed spells, just for fun.
Death Cocoon
Invoke Chi-Ji
Tigereye Brandy
1 Chi. Causes your Tiger Palm and Blackout Kick to also hit 3 additional nearby enemies within 5 yards when they deal damage for 20 seconds.

This could be potentially something that could be brought back to replace SEF. Problem is that blizzard has already established WW monks' niche as council-fight cleave masters and this new cleave would take Arms Warrior kind of approach. Personally I would have no problem with this, as I hate being balanced around our "niche" that we get to express once or twice in one raid tier.

I'm starting to think that windwalkers (or even monks as a whole) is a failed concept. We were supposed to have incredibly awesome Dark/Light Chi system with their own different finishers (Blackout for Dark, TP for Light) but it was apparently too complicated for an average player so it was scrapped for a simple holy power / combo point system. I've since then have had a feeling that Blizzard has no idea how to design or proceed with monks.

Anyway, great post! Especially the glyph slot issue has been brought up multiple times in the past and I wholeheartedly agree with it. I also agree that Chi Torpedo as our gameplay staple makes the gameplay dull and unfun.

Edited by Divinitum, 08 August 2015 - 10:03 PM.

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#8 koce

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 10:44 PM

I support almost all the changes/fixes you proposed,too bad I cant vote on the US forums...

Edited by koce, 08 August 2015 - 10:49 PM.

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#9 Marshmellow

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 11:02 PM

The design Windwalkers had in mop was amazing, if they never added Storm, Earth and fire it would have been perfect. Wod made the class stale and un-fun

Every windwalker monk has been saying the same thing about Disable since the beginning of s12, the root on it is really strong but at the same time having to spend a global every time one of the bacon grease classes powershifts or freedoms out of disable wrecks our damage rotation, especially when windwalkers only have one way to deal damage from range

Also i think they should take a look at Roll and FSK, being able to be stunned and rooted while using those abilities is ridiculous, if a windwalker gets stopped while using flying serpent kick that pretty much prevents them from doing any valuable damage for 25 seconds, especially since now chi torpedo is almost mandatory in our damage rotation.

Bringing back spinning fire blossom would be great, it wasnt really strong in any way seeing as you had to skill shot it just to root something, it was a fun and rewarding mechanic and this game needs more like it.
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#10 Randomguy

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 11:58 PM

Post contains everything that needs to be done / is wrong with WW Monk! Good job putting it all together.

Bring back Spinning Fire Blossom!

Edited by Randomguy, 08 August 2015 - 11:58 PM.

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#11 Smooviex

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Posted 09 August 2015 - 02:35 AM

they pruned a class that had nothing to prune for the sake of WoD, hopefully they'll make adjustments where it's needed. good post
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#12 Dollyo

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Posted 09 August 2015 - 02:45 AM

Fully agree with you, I only want to feel the MoP WW playstyle again, not this clunky shit.
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#13 Fedx

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Posted 09 August 2015 - 03:57 AM

Good thing that you have Venruki helping you out since a lot of windwalkers have been wanting these changes for months but since we are not called Cdew, Bajheera or Venruki there's not much we can do.

Very good post overall and I agree with everything. Your mobility shouldn't be your highest dmg spell. Imagine warrior charge crit for 50k every 20 sec but out of that they wouldn't deal any damage. One way to do this would be to do as you say, nerf chi torpedo and put the damage from it into RSK or Blackout kick but I would also like too see RJW's energy cost reduced by 50% - down to 20 energy.

I agree with what you said about fists of fury 100% but I would also like to add this: Restuns target(s) on every hit. - As in MoP.

And that I finally meet another windwalker that doesnt want Storm, Earth and Fire to do as much damage as it's doing now is nice since to me thats the most boring spell in the windwalker spellbook and I hate it's playstyle.

If all these changes happen we will be able to compete with warriors in most comps and we wouldn't be a shit tier melee.
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#14 relegladhero

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Posted 09 August 2015 - 05:42 AM

Ok where to start...

a ) Your allies have betrayed you. You have lost Venruki to the reckstorming, platewearing gorillas.
b ) Respect for the work you put into the concept you try to see in ww monks and the long post

Most importantly though

c ) The worst thing Blizzard can do when trying to fix a class is do so by increasing damage. So fuck you and half of the ideas you brought up. The other half is fine. Thought this was common knowledge by now.
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Who the fuck is Enrico?

#15 BalanceRexxar

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Posted 09 August 2015 - 05:51 AM

Ok where to start...

a ) Your allies have betrayed you. You have lost Venruki to the reckstorming, platewearing gorillas.
b ) Respect for the work you put into the concept you try to see in ww monks and the long post

Most importantly though

c ) The worst thing Blizzard can do when trying to fix a class is do so by increasing damage. So fuck you and half of the ideas you brought up. The other half is fine. Thought this was common knowledge by now.


not once did i say to increase our damage, anytime i made a mention of damage I was talking about relocating it, reducing damage of our roll but increasing something else. I think you misread it or just jumped to conclusions.
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#16 relegladhero

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Posted 09 August 2015 - 05:57 AM

not once did i say to increase our damage, anytime i made a mention of damage I was talking about relocating it, reducing damage of our roll but increasing something else. I think you misread it or just jumped to conclusions.


It's the same outcome, except you'll have to press less buttons to get more dmg done, so... no?

If ability a does 10 dmg and ability b does 10 dmg, you take away 5 from ability b, relocate it to a, and suddenly instead of doing 20 dmg in 2 globals you do 15 in 1. That can NOT be the solution to ANYTHING.
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Who the fuck is Enrico?

#17 Marshmellow

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Posted 09 August 2015 - 06:33 AM

It's the same outcome, except you'll have to press less buttons to get more dmg done, so... no?

If ability a does 10 dmg and ability b does 10 dmg, you take away 5 from ability b, relocate it to a, and suddenly instead of doing 20 dmg in 2 globals you do 15 in 1. That can NOT be the solution to ANYTHING.


It's the key to utility of classes, why would anyone want to play a class that does everything in one button? like a poster above brought up

Imagine warrior charge crit for 50k every 20 sec but out of that they wouldn't deal any damage.


it's just bad class design, it makes the class unappealing to most people thats why the windwalker monk population of this game is a fraction of every other class. Utility should be utility and damage should be damage.

with taking damage from chi torpedo and putting it on another ability that is actually supposed to deal damage you aren't buffing damage in anyway because you are still doing the same amount of damage overall.

so next time try reading and comprehending the entire post before you make statements like that.
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#18 Fedx

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Posted 09 August 2015 - 07:15 AM

This gaijin guy is just as retarded as he looks like
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#19 relegladhero

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Posted 09 August 2015 - 07:31 AM

It's the key to utility of classes, why would anyone want to play a class that does everything in one button? like a poster above brought up


Dude this was exactly my point? ^^ Relocating dmg from one ability to another makes people want to press the former one less (for simplicity's sake only talking about pure dps now) because they can do almost the same dmg with the latter one alone, than they did with both combined before. -> Resulting in exactly the playstyle we have right now in WoD, where it's all about 100->0 oneshots in a CC chain with as few buttons as possible and sustained dps fading into the background even more.

This gaijin guy is just as retarded as he looks like


Coming from a guy that looks like a quokka on crack this is quite ironic.

Posted Image

joke aside, insults won't bring any of us further. Stay classy mate.
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Who the fuck is Enrico?

#20 Marshmellow

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Posted 09 August 2015 - 07:41 AM

Dude this was exactly my point? ^^ Relocating dmg from one ability to another makes people want to press the former one less (for simplicity's sake only talking about pure dps now) because they can do almost the same dmg with the latter one alone, than they did with both combined before. -> Resulting in exactly the playstyle we have right now in WoD, where it's all about 100->0 oneshots in a CC chain with as few buttons as possible and sustained dps fading into the background even more.




That's not what i'm talking about at all, in this case you are taking damage from one ability and putting it on another so the original ability can be used for something else, in this case, chi torpedo which is supposed to be a mobility spell but instead windwalker has to use it in their damage rotation.

Moving damage from Chi Torpedo to say Rising Sun Kick isn't going to make people used Chi Torpedo or Roll less they will instead use it for what it is supposed to do (mobility)

Edited by Marshmellow, 09 August 2015 - 07:41 AM.

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