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Am I the only one who hates Sudden Death? (Fury)


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#1 Phibrizo

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 09:40 PM

I know that everyone tends toward SD for the 45 tier and can probably cite that it is the best DPS.
But I prefer the control of a talent like Unquenchable Thirst or Furious Strikes.
Personally the reason I like Fury over Arms is that I don't sit and wait for CS or hope for a well timed SD proc, and I loved the playstyle of Fury back in TBC before TItans Grip (I remember being really annoyed at TG's introduction because of the massive slowdown in the playstyle and the need to stack hit). If I wanted to swing a slow giant weapon, I would run Arms.

So here is my quandary: Does anyone have any numbers that can validate UT because of rage generation and life gain to make it a viable option in arenas? What about taking advantage of spammable wild strikes due to the rage reduction of Furious Strikes? If so, how does it stack up when you consider TG and SMF?

I have not done a whole lot of testing on this, and I just sort of play UT cause it feels so much more berserk to me. Mashing Bloodthirst like a barbarian to gather rage, keeping the WS debuff on opponents and charging around the battlefield feels so much more fun to me.
Can this be useful at all or do I just have to resign to the fact that having fun hurts the team and I need to just play the meta?

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#2 Revolol

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 10:27 PM

Having fun hurts your team. Welcome to Warlords of Draenor.

FS does well vs plate targets in my experience, but UT is totally worthless. You just miss out on way too much damage from the other talents, plus BT hits for like 200.
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#3 Phibrizo

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Posted 21 July 2015 - 10:48 PM

Having fun hurts your team. Welcome to Warlords of Draenor.

FS does well vs plate targets in my experience, but UT is totally worthless. You just miss out on way too much damage from the other talents, plus BT hits for like 200.


This is what I was afraid of.
Is it worth running 4pc PvP set bonus(obv you should be running 4pc) to feed wild strikes with FS and give that a shot?
I guess part of what I hate is sitting there auto attacking and waiting for cds like a puppy begging for a treat. That is the essence of Arms to me, and I hate it.
Bah... maybe I should just run prot... or a different class... or just quit WoD... lol
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#4 Aylien

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 02:08 AM

FS does almost the same dps as SD. But SD make you burst the most in a small window, which is required in comps like WMD. That is what fury means to me.
I absolutely feel you, bro. Although arms with SD does the most dps, I would still spec slam to feel comfortable, and my dmg will be more effective on one single target.

I think it's not a thing about viable or not, it's about best or good. Running things you like, find problems when you get stucked.
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#5 Phibrizo

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 04:29 PM

Thanks for the input. I did some sims, but I am fairly new to using the tool so I could be interpreting the data or adjusting the options incorrectly, but it looks to me like: TG SD >= SMF TG > TG FS > SMF FS
I know a lot of people tend to say that SD is best for burst, but waiting for procs is like hell to me. Do you literally just pool rage until you get the SD proc then call out to teammates you are about to hulk smash and hope you don't get cc'd? The lack of control and waiting seems like it would be so inconsistent and detrimental when you NEED to have the damage to help push someone into execute range for the finisher.
I am glad you mentioned WMD because there is a good chance I will be playing that comp pretty soon. Between the classes my brother and I have available and the friends who play pretty consistently I am looking at WMD, KFC and Kitty Cleave as my options. Not too sure how all those are doing in the current season but I would guess that WMD is doing better than the others.
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#6 Matduke

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 06:47 PM

I don't like sudden death for fury OR arms. I just want the old one back where it procs CS and then bring back overpower or slam baseline or something.
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#7 Aylien

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 02:04 AM

Thanks for the input. I did some sims, but I am fairly new to using the tool so I could be interpreting the data or adjusting the options incorrectly, but it looks to me like: TG SD >= SMF TG > TG FS > SMF FS
I know a lot of people tend to say that SD is best for burst, but waiting for procs is like hell to me. Do you literally just pool rage until you get the SD proc then call out to teammates you are about to hulk smash and hope you don't get cc'd? The lack of control and waiting seems like it would be so inconsistent and detrimental when you NEED to have the damage to help push someone into execute range for the finisher.
I am glad you mentioned WMD because there is a good chance I will be playing that comp pretty soon. Between the classes my brother and I have available and the friends who play pretty consistently I am looking at WMD, KFC and Kitty Cleave as my options. Not too sure how all those are doing in the current season but I would guess that WMD is doing better than the others.


http://www.arenajunk...lords-season-2/
Here is a stream. To me, it's just simply more rage vs more stat. The dmg dealing is so close.

I had been playing kfc since the last season. But I just realized something important lately. Without excute, it's no burst. So I think it should be like this: once SD proc, call for stormbolt -> trap, then pop avatar and ask for freedom or windwalk totem. SD could proc 2~3 times in a minute, which is similar to stormbolt's CD.
If you really can't get used to this playstyle, I don't know FS in WMD(you can try it out yourself), but arms with slam and avatar in KFC is not bad.

However, I heard WMD is super strong this season, wish you luck.
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#8 Garrockz

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 08:51 PM

I know a lot of people tend to say that SD is best for burst, but waiting for procs is like hell to me. Do you literally just pool rage until you get the SD proc then call out to teammates you are about to hulk smash and hope you don't get cc'd? The lack of control and waiting seems like it would be so inconsistent and detrimental when you NEED to have the damage to help push someone into execute range for the finisher.


That is in fact BS and sounds like you have the wrong rotation or stat priority. You can always trigger RB if nothing procs by yourself (charge+bs or just BR) and BS procs on a regular basis tbh even tho its rng.
In terms of SD you have rppm which means = real procs per minute, which is a system that garantuees to have statistically these amount of SD procs in a certain frame of time. Typical for rppm procs you almost 90%ly have a proc after getting into combat after a longer break. Meaning: Your first charge after entering Arena. And you do NOT have to pool rage for SD as it doesnt need any additional rage as fury. Just charge in, pop all your roflurgonnadie-CD's and spank them. And even if you want to get beyond 1,5k rating and time your burst for a specific Timeframe, you have around 3 procs per minute, it aint that hard to line it up.

Maybe you should take a look at my fury guide http://www.arenajunk...fury-pvp-guide/ to get the basics in terms of rotation/stat priority etc. It is a bit outdated in terms of the stats as it was written at the beginning of season 1. But all in all its still the same. Maybe do STR > Mastery > Crit = Haste to get some more SD procs along with the higher haste value.


Feel free to ask some questions if you got any.
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#9 Bewdetdef

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 12:34 AM

FS does almost the same dps as SD. But SD make you burst the most in a small window, which is required in comps like WMD. That is what fury means to me.
I absolutely feel you, bro. Although arms with SD does the most dps, I would still spec slam to feel comfortable, and my dmg will be more effective on one single target.

I think it's not a thing about viable or not, it's about best or good. Running things you like, find problems when you get stucked.


I have already mentioned that in the official forums. Arms needs Heroic Strike back and Blizz should KEEP it that way. Stop adding and removing, adding and removing. Utterly stupid attitude. Instead of adding more variety, they constantly reduce. What is this!? They need to replace most of their current design-team anyway.

Why not have slam at the same time? So you can adapt to each situation. Have sustained dmg, but cant heal. Can heal and have no dmg. Have burst, but no sustained and barely any healing. Why not everything at once? Fucking respecs and stiff decisions!

That would be so much fun.
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#10 Phibrizo

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 03:57 PM

That is in fact BS and sounds like you have the wrong rotation or stat priority.

What is BS, my personal opinion or the question I asked? Either way your response there is not very constructive to the thread.

You can always trigger RB if nothing procs by yourself (charge+bs or just BR) and BS procs on a regular basis tbh even tho its rng.

I understand how to trigger Raging Blow and why stacking crit to a certain point increases your uptime of raging blow by assisting the crit chance of Bloodthirst. This isn't the point of the thread though. The question at hand is more the playstyle of the tier 45 talents, meaning spammable bloodthirsts, spammable wild strikes, or rng rppm (Yes I already know what rppm is, thanks for the explanation though) baby executes.

And you do NOT have to pool rage for SD as it doesnt need any additional rage as fury. Just charge in, pop all your roflurgonnadie-CD's and spank them. And even if you want to get beyond 1,5k rating and time your burst for a specific Timeframe, you have around 3 procs per minute, it aint that hard to line it up.

I am not talking about pooling rage for Sudden Death, I am talking about pooling rage and waiting to drop all abilities when you have Sudden Death procced in order to then line up the rest of your abilities and have the rage to do so, ie Raging Blows and Wild strikes and SD Executes at the same time.
I already understand that SD has rppm, but this is exactly what I don't like about it. I can use an ability 3 times every minute, but I can't control when I get to use it. I don't like this play style and I prefer to have something more readily available. I want to play like a berserker flailing around and swinging at all times. I like the feel of having Bloodthirst without a cooldown and just mashing their faces in. The idea of cheaper wild strikes and really utilizing the 4 pc bonus by just whacking a target over and over while being enraged appeals to me. Waiting for a proc feels too much like Arms to me. Slow... Boring...
In case I did not explain it well enough, or you missed it the purpose was me asking if anyone had numbers to justify anything other than SD at tier 45 so I could have fun and play... not just play.
Thanks for plugging your guide though, I will check it out. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the responses to the thread, but you definitely missed the point.
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#11 Garrockz

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Posted 28 July 2015 - 12:55 PM

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the responses to the thread, but you definitely missed the point.


I do feel like you got it now after reading the guide? I didnt want to explain it all from scratch, thats why i just linked it. And i didnt "miss the point" it just rather felt like its not only SD that you have an issue with somehow, but that you're kind of blaming it on SD, that is why i mentioned everything so extensively. Maybe its my fault for getting a bit pissed at the beginning, but even though i tend to react allergic if people blame their inability on the spec as such. Didnt mean to get personal, sorry for that.

Also you mention "Baby Executes". I actually had matchups in arena where i ate half of the healers life in the first fractional second after my charge by just critting around 180k with an SD proc + Multistrike. And i tend to have these moments still from time to time where i just burst out laughing and i have my mates asking me "Dude! What the f*ck happened to the enemy healer?"
Back to back SD procs with your Weapon Enchants / Surge of Victory / Recklessness / Avatar + Enrage lined, is fuckin powerful and deadly as hell, trust me.
And maybe look for the Rotation Priority in the guide if you find yourself being rage starved often, I usually feel Fury as a spec where i never run into rage issues. Maybe you do overprioritize WS and thus always sit at low rage throughout the game?

Im always eager to help people getting into fury so if you like to, you can just PM me with questions. Not able to play with you tho, as im from EU sadly.

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#12 irubuwrongtime

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Posted 28 July 2015 - 05:11 PM

RNG sux in pvp yes. So I prefer playing arms over fury. But if you do play fury, it's SD or nothing. FS is viable for comps like KFC but SD tops everything when it comes to creating immense amount of pressure when it matters.

Basically you need to line up your team's cc chain and burst CD in line with your SD proc. Not the other way around. (Do not start cc chain and pop burst CD hoping your SD will proc at the same time...)

Let the team mates know as soon as you have the damage (SD proc/Seigebreaker) and try to line up your team's CC chain and burst CD as you do the damage.

Edit: UT is for BG where you wanna just have fun doing decent damage and never die.

Edited by irubuwrongtime, 28 July 2015 - 05:12 PM.

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#13 Phibrizo

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Posted 28 July 2015 - 07:42 PM

Seems like the tests I ran in sim and the responses all point to SD as the best option.
I guess I will just be stuck playing with a talent that I don't like the feel of.
Oh well...

Again, this is entirely a personal preference in playstyle, I like the other options for 45 tier better because they are more fun for me to play. It is just a shame when they set up such a limited choice of talents (compared to original talent trees) and even though there are only a few choices you get to make, you don't really get to make them. There is one option because Blizz can't figure out how to balance them.

T_T RIP my dreams of fun warrior
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#14 Garrockz

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Posted 31 July 2015 - 07:01 PM

T_T RIP my dreams of fun warrior


If you dont aim to go way above your recent pvp xp, just play it the way you enjoy it. Pick a comp where you have a good uptime on your target and go Unending Rage Glyph + FS Talent. Its not as good as SD, but still fine! Oh but dont go for Unquenchable Thirst, that Talent is useless in PvP and PvE, dunno what Blizzard htought when creating it...
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#15 Phibrizo

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Posted 10 August 2015 - 06:58 PM

If you dont aim to go way above your recent pvp xp, just play it the way you enjoy it.

I do plan to push rating up once I can find some reliable players and a comp that works for me. The unfortunate reality seems to be that playing competitively requires a certain build, and it shows. Once I switch to the cookie cutter Arms build there is a surge in victories. I guess we can just end the thread with the fact that a lot of our talents are just crap, and the fact that there are tiers with only one viable option is a shame. It really is a loss, and to be honest my biggest complaint is leaving after WotLK and returning to see all of my talent trees and talent points are gone. You would think that pruning the shit out of the talent trees would leave only quality to choose from... apparently not.
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#16 Armiger

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 12:45 AM

i feel the same way as you do but hey, just fo it for the lulz
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