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Balancing HPS

HPS DPS balance

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#1 ProdeGaming

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Posted 13 July 2015 - 07:21 PM

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Doesn't matter how much Execution Sentence or other burst spells are nerfed.(or long cd/low frequence spells) About 2% of their healing goes into HPS, they are ~meaningless for HPS.
Battle Fatigue can directly reduce HPS. The only other way to reduce HPS, to specifically nerf casted heals, such as Flash, Divine Light, WoG. That isn't better than Battle Fatigue and there is no other way to effectively reduce HPS, and HPS vs DPS are not balanced.

HPS ~38k vs ~24k DPS (dps of 2 players)
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#2 justicecute

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Posted 13 July 2015 - 07:34 PM

Dunno man
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#3 zzatbrah

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Posted 13 July 2015 - 08:37 PM

dont rly know wtf ur trying to say.
paladin healing is fine. their cooldowns arent
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#4 Siuox

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Posted 13 July 2015 - 08:46 PM

guess execution sentence was nerfed because it felt dumb when you dps someone for 20 minutes and cc his healer and then the healer gets out of cc and 10-100 him with one instant cast and not because they wanted to nerf paladin hps (no idea why they didnt nerf sotf ns then)

Edited by Siuox, 13 July 2015 - 08:47 PM.

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#5 ProdeGaming

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Posted 13 July 2015 - 08:46 PM

dont rly know wtf ur trying to say.
paladin healing is fine. their cooldowns arent

The post is not targeted at paladins. Generally about HPS, how it looks, what it's made of. To show what difficulties there are if HPS is too high and has to be reduced.

Those different colored 'sticks' are the spells. Their height is the spells' individual HPS. And at the left side, their average height, the HPS. That average is too high and has to be reduced. It's the 38k, from HPS 38k vs 24k DPS.

Edited by ProdeGaming, 13 July 2015 - 08:52 PM.

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#6 ProdeGaming

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Posted 13 July 2015 - 09:10 PM

paladin healing is fine. their cooldowns arent

Also should keep in mind that the subject is HPS. It is ~balanced due to PvE, all healers have ~the same amount. So if you just pick 1 class' HPS and examine it, if it's too high, then every other healer's is.

So to be a bit picky, no, paladin healing isn't fine. Because not just paladin's isn't, noone's healing/HPS is fine. HPS is just a single number, with a counter/opposite, DPS. HPS is 38k, DPS is 24k. That's called being op as fck.

Edited by ProdeGaming, 13 July 2015 - 09:14 PM.

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#7 Siuox

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Posted 13 July 2015 - 09:17 PM

HPS is 38k, DPS is 24k


do you also have numbers for tbc/wotlk? just curious
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#8 zzatbrah

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Posted 13 July 2015 - 09:20 PM

Also should keep in mind that the subject is HPS. It is ~balanced due to PvE, all healers have ~the same amount. So if you just pick 1 class' HPS and examine it, if it's too high, then every other healer's is.

So to be a bit picky, no, paladin healing isn't fine. Because not just paladin's isn't, noone's healing/HPS is fine. HPS is just a single number, with a counter/opposite, DPS. HPS is 38k, DPS is 24k. That's called being op as fck.

this isnt a recount test or highmaul though
damage with cooldowns is 100x stronger than healing and healing with cooldowns is 100x stronger damage (mostly thinking wings and ascendance here)

if youre saying constant damage needs to be higher then i think most people will agree
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#9 ProdeGaming

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Posted 13 July 2015 - 09:25 PM

do you also have numbers for tbc/wotlk? just curious

Do not mean offense, but the funny thing is, if you understand the relation between HPS-vs-DPS and CC/burst. You can estimate how high HPS and DPS had to be in any expansion.

Not precisely, can't tell a definite number, but since CC/burst was much lower, the TBC HPS-vs-DPS must've been much closer to each other, than 38 and 24 are. HPS must've been just a bit higher than DPS, say, HPS 28 vs 24 DPS.

Edited by ProdeGaming, 13 July 2015 - 09:25 PM.

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#10 ProdeGaming

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Posted 13 July 2015 - 09:58 PM

this isnt a recount test or highmaul though
damage with cooldowns is 100x stronger than healing and healing with cooldowns is 100x stronger damage (mostly thinking wings and ascendance here)

if youre saying constant damage needs to be higher then i think most people will agree

There isn't a DPS race in PvP yes, but you refer to HPS/DPS as if they didn't matter for PvP, like they can be just anything. But they are very important.

Just imagine, they are just simple averages. Like the average speed of a car. They have the same method, like a car's varying travel speed can be replaced by its average speed. Let it go by that average speed the whole time and it still gets to the end in the same time.

HPS and DPS are the same, your dmg can be replaced by 24k for each second. Every single hit you do, 24k. That's an absolutely constant dmg, 24k every hit.
So then you keep doing 24k hits, healers keep healing for 38k each hit, what you gonna do, won't kill anything. And that is what you keep suggesting, constant dmg. But if you have that, noone is gonna die, because HPS and DPS are not balanced and HPS is much higher. Don't mean offense, but HPS vs DPS is one of the most important things for PvP.

Edited by ProdeGaming, 13 July 2015 - 10:01 PM.

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#11 ProdeGaming

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Posted 13 July 2015 - 11:05 PM

So everyone agrees, the game needs Battle Fatigue? It's what the OP shows.
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#12 Nexxer

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 12:03 AM

HPS and DPS are the same, your dmg can be replaced by 24k for each second. Every single hit you do, 24k. That's an absolutely constant dmg, 24k every hit.
So then you keep doing 24k hits, healers keep healing for 38k each hit, what you gonna do, won't kill anything. And that is what you keep suggesting, constant dmg. But if you have that, noone is gonna die, because HPS and DPS are not balanced and HPS is much higher. Don't mean offense, but HPS vs DPS is one of the most important things for PvP.


In a PvE situation, yes. What you want to suggest is to make hps less than dps, which basically means you could kill someone through spam heals (38k dps vs. 24k hps for instance). This change would make cc irrelevant and promote comps like lsd2, shadowplay, wls, you get the point. With this change, it'd feel like you always have dampening, we are not even full geared yet and warlock damage is already borderline unouthealable when dampening kicks in.

Anyway, you can't compare hps vs. dps like that in PvP, just doesn't work like that, there is a reason we have cc, interrupts and cooldowns.
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#13 ProdeGaming

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 12:11 AM

In a PvE situation, yes. What you want to suggest is to make hps less than dps, which basically means you could kill someone through spam heals (38k dps vs. 24k hps for instance). This change would make cc irrelevant and promote comps like lsd2, shadowplay, wls, you get the point. With this change, it'd feel like you always have dampening, we are not even full geared yet and warlock damage is already borderline unouthealable when dampening kicks in.

Anyway, you can't compare hps vs. dps like that in PvP, just doesn't work like that, there is a reason we have cc, interrupts and cooldowns.


Why compare HPS and DPS in PvE? HPS is used on players, DPS on mobs. Why would they have anything to do with each other in PvE?

In PvP, both DPS and HPS is used on players, they are put right up against each other.

I don't necessarily want HPS to be lower than DPS, but you got a great point. If it was lower than DPS, then we would not need CC or burst. Consequently, if HPS is higher than DPS, we do need CC/burst. The higher it is, the more CC/burst.
So might as well balance them better than 38k HPS and 24k DPS. Because if HPS is so high, then there has to be tons of CC/burst. Like on live.

It's just, HPS and CC/burst are linked together. Either both of them go down, or none. But CC/burst should go down, so HPS has to as well. Rly is that simple, nothing complicated about it.

Edited by ProdeGaming, 14 July 2015 - 12:46 AM.

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#14 Velcaa

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 12:13 AM

ya same tbh
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#15 Rydar

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 12:15 AM

wot the fuk
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#16 Violatrix

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 01:03 AM

So everyone agrees, the game needs Battle Fatigue? It's what the OP shows.


No. Not everyone agrees, and incidentally, not every healer has an "I win" cooldown like ES or NS, or perhaps you have all forgotten that priests are still a class in the game.

HPS should be higher than DPS, and not just by a little, and burst healing has to exist in order to offset burst damage, which, frankly, is insane at times. The graph above is interesting and illustrative, but it is not at all reflective of a PVP environment. HPS numbers are lost to CC, lockouts, blanket silences (effectively a CC), pushback, dispels, repositioning, and juking. Without significant burst healing, the first team to pop all of their offensive CDs and secure a CC/lockout would be the team that wins as recovery would be all but impossible.

When was the last time you played a game that ended in a draw? I don't recall the last time it happened to me. If HPS + burst healing were truly so completely overwhelming, nobody could die, yet people do indeed die. What is the issue here then?

A lot of the complaints about healing are rooted in the idea that if you hit something long enough, it should just die despite that target's best efforts to the contrary. That is what dampening does for us. It all but guarantees kills. At some point, rend/disease/moonfire/SWP tics become impossible to heal through. People, especially people who want to push rating, want games to end more quickly. I know I am a minority here, but I think this is bad for gameplay. I really believe that in order to get a kill as any comp, people need to actually outplay the other team, and I don't have a problem with longer games except that they generally mean I have not done what is necessary in order to win.
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#17 ProdeGaming

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 01:21 AM

HPS should be higher than DPS, and not just by a little ... burst damage, which, frankly, is insane

Burst dmg and CC are insane because HPS is high. So HPS should not be high.

They come into the picture when HPS is high because:
Burst and CC are very similar mechanics to dampening. Doesn't matter how high your healing is, they can still kill you if they are high enough. Burst can just 1shot you after a while, and CC can just CC you forever, so even 1 DPS gonna kill you eventually. Healing is 'np' for burst and CC.
So just because HPS is higher than DPS, to kill you anyway, it's just a matter of how high CC or burst there has to be. Let alone mixing them both.


Maybe this shows better why CC/burst are linked to HPS:
http://i.imgur.com/nq1eIhs.png


Healing is not hard because HPS isn't high, but simply because CC/burst do their job they were meant to do fine.
I mean, HPS is 38k, DPS is 24k. HPS is 158% of DPS. It's op as fck and is no surprise that PvP is stuffed with CC/burst as a result.
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#18 Volb

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 03:53 AM

dont rly know wtf ur trying to say.
paladin healing is fine. their cooldowns arent

blizzard's logic: Pally healing sucks, especially now since we made them have to cast wog(already a shitty heal prewod).
Solution? Combine all their healing cds into wings and buff ES so you can randomly get a global off to top someone.

class has literally gone to shit since cata when they introduced holy power.

Edited by Volb, 14 July 2015 - 03:54 AM.

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