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Actually constructive Hpala thread


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#1 Phatkat

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 04:17 AM

Ok, so we know they're dumb and we know about the stealth buff (Infusion of Light now also affects Flash of Light, meaning that instead of using your Holy Shock crit proc on fast-cast Divine Lights, you can use them to hardcast Flash of Light for 50% extra healing on it). They're obviously too strong, so what should be done about it?

I'm here to suggest some rational ways to nerf Paladins to reasonable levels while keeping the spec fun to play and relevant in the meta-game, while (hopefully) promoting and rewarding good gameplay.
  • The Flash of Light/Infusion of Light buff is good design and should stay after nerfing other abilities.
Reasoning: Historically, Paladins have had low healing without CDs up, which is still somewhat true (compared to when CDs are up) in WOD, and exacerbated by the fact that all the healing CDs were merged into Wings. I think this change allows for greater healing potential between healing CDs at the reward of good play (getting Flash of Light hardcasts off, as opposed to fastcasts).

Once other, more poorly designed aspects of the spec are nerfed, this change staying ensures that Paladins will still be able to properly deal with moderate damage without CDs, and be rewarded for hardcasting and keeping their crit buff uptime high.
  • Execution Sentence should be reverted back to a strong HoT with a smaller burst of healing at the end.
Reasoning: To begin with, nobody enjoys getting someone to ~35% HP and seeing them get instantly topped from a gap in CC on the Paladin. NS shouldn't be a global healing tool. On top of that, Shaman and Druids need a global and a buff (Unleash Elements and Soul of the Forest respectively) to set up their NS to deal the maximum healing, while Paladins don't. It's a poor design and keeps Paladins from being punished for bad play.

If ES were a HoT with a burst at the end (purgeable, I might add) it would still fulfill a role (the Paladin can use it to help minimize his targets damage taken if he uses it before he gets Feared, for example) while also opening up room to play with Holy Prism, a much more fun and rewarding ability in my opinion. Additionally, PvE is not affected very much by this change, since ES is a niche talent for raiding.
  • Saved by the Light should be made into a reactive ability, or just nerfed.
Reasoning: Nobody will disagree that SBTL is one of the more frustrating aspects of playing against Paladins, and also a big reason why they're so strong. It's poor design because it requires no active decisionmaking rather than placing Beacon on a target you think may die sometime beforehand. It's place-and-forget.

I suggest that SBTL should be remodeled into an active spell, with a requirement of "Saving" the target with "the Light", meaning that your target must be under ~35% hp for you to use the ability. The ability could look something like this (although I'm no designer and this is just a rough idea):

Saved by the Light, 1.5 min cooldown, 40yd range, on global. You call upon the Light to save a friendly target from certain death, granting them a shield equal to ~35% of their max health, lasting 10 secs, but your target must be under ~35% health to do so. Activated automatically on the paladin, putting the ability on cooldown and granting them the shield for an extra 25% duration and strength.

Short of this, I think a simple, adequate nerf would be to have the shield only be worth something like 17.5-22.5% of max HP, OR increase the debuff length to like 1.5 mins.
  • Paladin damage is overtuned and should be flatly nerfed.
Reasoning: Paladins simply can do too much damage compared to other healers, often to the point of landing a kill on their own. The damage became too much when Holy Shock damage was buffed in a recent patch to do 25% more damage, and in combination with the Holy Shock glyph (another +25% damage) can hit very hard. This is further added to by Denounce, which does a bit of damage on it's own in addition to giving you a crit buff depending on the crit chance of your target, and can have a haste boost from the glyph. This is further added to by the crit, haste, and bonus damage granted by Wings.

All this adds up to more damage than other healers can currently put out consistently. I believe the best solution is a flat damage nerf to both spells, and/or possibly removing/reducing the damage boost from Wings.


Thanks for reading this far! If you want a TL;DR, just skim the 4 points. Full disclosure, I do have an alt Holy Paladin ([email protected]) that I played to 2400+ this season, so I may be slightly biased - but my main is Druid. Leave your opinions/feedback/(dis)agreements/hatespeech/etc. here if you have any, and hopefully Blizzard deals with the Hpala situation in a reasonable way. I also posted this on bnet arena forums. You can tweet this thread to people or whatever kids do these days if you agree with my ideas.

Edited by Phatkat, 24 June 2015 - 04:19 AM.

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#2 Odrareg

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 04:36 AM

Paladins shouldn't be nerfed. They should be changed so that in order to perform as good as they can now, it has to take far more brain and skill instead of the few retarded buttons it requires now.

I actually do not disagree with those changes, I mean it is true, from an external point of view paladins are just extremely stupid with how CD-rotated everything can be.

I am okay with getting nerfed on those abilities if good play is going to finally be rewarded though.

Make ES a HoT again, nerf Saved by the Light etc...okay. But then make sure that I don't sacrifice blind and before I take any damage, the enemy team spellsteals/purges it and I still sit full CC. Make sure that I have a way to avoid Rogue+Mage cc against RMD or RMP in 3v3. Holy paladins are the ONLY HEALER that has to actually CAST in order to heal. When getting trained, you only have holy shock. Flash of light / Divine light has to be casted, you cannot kite, you have to fake like hell, and it isn't very easy.

The class is just POORLY DESIGNED. I HATE how I have to top myself in one swifty macro but I swear to god, it is needed looking at how the game is. They either completely overhaul the class, or it has to stay this way in order to be competitive. The problem is that it is TOO EASY to be competitive, and Blizzard gave us some free-win button that anyone can use. That free win button is needed because paladin's gameplay is overall extremely frustrating as the tools are practically 0 and anything you do can just be totally neglected by the enemy, so as I said the solution they came up with is just 180k heals and 3 immunities. That is boring and frustrating to play against, I can imagine.

Believe me though, if you take away Saved by the Light, don't expect paladins to get out of the 2200 league.

I can give you an example of how a game vs RMD goes as a Hpaladin PoV for example if you are interested, but won't make the post any longer for now.

TL;DR: Paladins need to be made harder to play instead of being nerfed, I hope you understand the thin line in between the two concepts.

Edited by Odrareg, 24 June 2015 - 04:39 AM.

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#3 Phatkat

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 05:06 AM

I don't disagree with you, currently I feel that people are going to be crying for nerfs to Holy very loudly and the main focus of this post is to provide some feedback on what kind of nerfs should be given in order to keep paladins from going back to undertuned tier 2 healers with poorly designed tools.

I think sac is a bit of an issue but that ties in more with the current state of purges and trash buffs in the meta, and mages. But overall I think their toolkit, especially after these changes, is more than adequate
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#4 Jim_Jim

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 04:09 PM

The Hpal problem is way more complicated than that. Despite the “easy find” solutions like making Outplayed by The Light an active ability or reverting the Execution Sentence buff, and make the spell like it was before, (= Useless and nobody will use it anymore.) or make it a huge HoT wouldn’t solve the problem, and people would not use it anymore too. (Because It can be purged, and it’s bugued when stolen by a mage – in the mage advantage of course -.). If you just change these 2 spells, without touching the core of hpal, and nerfing other classes abilities (Like offensive dispel), or changing anything else, don’t expect to see any hpal above 2000 rating, because everyone will crush them without effort. In a way, like during 6.0.

I explain :

Execution Sentence is not the problem, the spell heal as much as a saving grace from a priest. It’s Avenging Wrath, this spell alone is the main problem of hpal, and the “set up your NS” is not really a good excuse, it’s like having a condition : use holy shock before. And our condition is clearly huge : you need Wings to make the spell a huge NS. About Wings :
The spell itself is so powerful that you need a glyph to reduce it, because it’s clearly too much without. (For what I saw on the 6.2 PTR, I will use the 3min wings 90% of the time I think, so, this point might be discussed in the future)
  • ES is morphed into an overpowered Lay of Hands (Hey, +50% heal combined with a usable 2min trinket – 1min now – and 10% crit and even more with denounce, + the mastery shield and the HoT, yay.)
  • We have bad healing without, and extremely good with. No middle part.
  • Holy Power is not as important and easy to have as it was during MoP, so, no choice of talent, making Wings even more overpowered (+10s with talent, and a faster holy shock.)
About Holy shock/Denounce damage :

It’s clearly too high, a blanket –X% damage on PvP players is needed of course. I actually like the way denounce work, it’s a cool unique spell in the game.

About Saved by the Light, I think making an active ability with a CD would destroy it, but instead of that solution, in my opinion, 2 choices could be better.
  • Increase the debuff by 50%, so, 1min30 without shield or
  • Reduce the shield itself, instead of 30%, 15% could be enough.
About our cooldowns (Freedom, Sacrifice, BoP…), nobody complains about it before, because it was just another trashbuff to purge. (Hpal don’t have many trashbuffs unless you set up them perfectly : kings/might, Wog buff, flash of light buff, sacred shield, and the CD you want to protect, lots of GCD and cast to protect something.). Of course it’s dumb to have 2 charges of things, but it’s the solution from Blizzard to not giving us undispellable things.
And it’s fair, ironically, because an undispellable BoP/Sacrifice would be really stupid. And on the other hand, being able to crush a 5min CD by a spamable spell is stupid too. A dream for me would be to have really short CD, but with really short duration. So a faster gameplay.
Our CDs become more dumb with casters classes which allow us (to have easy rating) to have more protection to offensive dispel, more protection against team which trains you, and more protection against silences/cs. So the miserable CD which last 1s on a weak class with no magic buff (DK) will last way more on the traditional overpowered classes (mages)

Now, how to nerf hpal without destroying us, without making us the new disc priest, and in the same time giving us a funny and rewarding gameplay without touching the PvE?
This is my own perception of my hpal, so you can debate with it.
  • Remove the 2 part PvP bonus, and make it baseline on the spell. Considering it already doesn’t work on outside NPC and PvE, not a problem.
  • Give us back the “1 holy power with flash of light” bonus with PvP gear. Making Holy power more fast, and making holy avenger and divine purpose viable again.
  • With this change, reduce slightly the 4 part bonus, instead of 5/10/15%, like 3/6/9% would be good. Because lots of holy power = lots of WoG.
  • Increase the healing of Eternal Flame in PvP by like 50%, and make the HoT undispellable. This cool spell is useless now considering you need 3 holy power, a cast, to have a 30s dispellable HoT which tick for nothing. All 3 talent on this row would be attractive. (Despite the bad comment on it, I find Selfless healer really good as a talent for Hpal.)
  • Reduce the impact of Wings healing by a lot (50%?) in PvP instance (BG/RBG/Arena/Wargames/Ashran – Huhu -). I mean, instead of 3min CD : 20% haste/crit/damage + 100% healing. It will be 20% haste/crit/damage +50% healing in PvP. With glyph, wings will only increase healing by 25%.
  • Make glyph of flash of light not consumed by a single spell. Like the old grace from disc priest, +10% all healing during Xs after a flash of light. The idea is to have more constant healing and less burst with wings.
  • -X% damage on holy shock/denounce against PvP target.
  • One of the 2 solutions I write about Saved by the Light
  • Make Beacon of Insight off gcd, and not bouncing randomly with other’s people spell, and not bouncing UNTIL the target reach 90% life. Reduce the healing of the casted spell to 20%. So the spell would be a good alternative of a nerfed saved by the light (But still good.), or, a passive buff to casted heals on the beacon of insight. This talent is used nowhere, and it was already bug’d on the Beta.
  • Make plate armor a thing again. (The only thing I miss from TBC was when I was a huge wall against most of melee classes)

I can only dream of that, because I think it would be too much of changes for only one spec in the game. And of course, without changing PvP itself : having constant healing would not work in the current state of the game, when everything is bound to cooldowns. That’s why Hpal shine now, because the 6.1 buff give us the perfect CD to compensate our bad constant healing with a perfect CD rotation.
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#5 Dills

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 05:12 PM

The Hpal problem is way more complicated than that. Despite the “easy find” solutions like making Outplayed by The Light an active ability or reverting the Execution Sentence buff, and make the spell like it was before, (= Useless and nobody will use it anymore.) or make it a huge HoT wouldn’t solve the problem, and people would not use it anymore too. (Because It can be purged, and it’s bugued when stolen by a mage – in the mage advantage of course -.). If you just change these 2 spells, without touching the core of hpal, and nerfing other classes abilities (Like offensive dispel), or changing anything else, don’t expect to see any hpal above 2000 rating, because everyone will crush them without effort. In a way, like during 6.0.

I explain :

Execution Sentence is not the problem, the spell heal as much as a saving grace from a priest. It’s Avenging Wrath, this spell alone is the main problem of hpal, and the “set up your NS” is not really a good excuse, it’s like having a condition : use holy shock before. And our condition is clearly huge : you need Wings to make the spell a huge NS. About Wings :
The spell itself is so powerful that you need a glyph to reduce it, because it’s clearly too much without. (For what I saw on the 6.2 PTR, I will use the 3min wings 90% of the time I think, so, this point might be discussed in the future)

  • ES is morphed into an overpowered Lay of Hands (Hey, +50% heal combined with a usable 2min trinket – 1min now – and 10% crit and even more with denounce, + the mastery shield and the HoT, yay.)
  • We have bad healing without, and extremely good with. No middle part.
  • Holy Power is not as important and easy to have as it was during MoP, so, no choice of talent, making Wings even more overpowered (+10s with talent, and a faster holy shock.)
About Holy shock/Denounce damage :

It’s clearly too high, a blanket –X% damage on PvP players is needed of course. I actually like the way denounce work, it’s a cool unique spell in the game.

About Saved by the Light, I think making an active ability with a CD would destroy it, but instead of that solution, in my opinion, 2 choices could be better.
  • Increase the debuff by 50%, so, 1min30 without shield or
  • Reduce the shield itself, instead of 30%, 15% could be enough.
About our cooldowns (Freedom, Sacrifice, BoP…), nobody complains about it before, because it was just another trashbuff to purge. (Hpal don’t have many trashbuffs unless you set up them perfectly : kings/might, Wog buff, flash of light buff, sacred shield, and the CD you want to protect, lots of GCD and cast to protect something.). Of course it’s dumb to have 2 charges of things, but it’s the solution from Blizzard to not giving us undispellable things.
And it’s fair, ironically, because an undispellable BoP/Sacrifice would be really stupid. And on the other hand, being able to crush a 5min CD by a spamable spell is stupid too. A dream for me would be to have really short CD, but with really short duration. So a faster gameplay.
Our CDs become more dumb with casters classes which allow us (to have easy rating) to have more protection to offensive dispel, more protection against team which trains you, and more protection against silences/cs. So the miserable CD which last 1s on a weak class with no magic buff (DK) will last way more on the traditional overpowered classes (mages)

Now, how to nerf hpal without destroying us, without making us the new disc priest, and in the same time giving us a funny and rewarding gameplay without touching the PvE?
This is my own perception of my hpal, so you can debate with it.
  • Remove the 2 part PvP bonus, and make it baseline on the spell. Considering it already doesn’t work on outside NPC and PvE, not a problem.
  • Give us back the “1 holy power with flash of light” bonus with PvP gear. Making Holy power more fast, and making holy avenger and divine purpose viable again.
  • With this change, reduce slightly the 4 part bonus, instead of 5/10/15%, like 3/6/9% would be good. Because lots of holy power = lots of WoG.
  • Increase the healing of Eternal Flame in PvP by like 50%, and make the HoT undispellable. This cool spell is useless now considering you need 3 holy power, a cast, to have a 30s dispellable HoT which tick for nothing. All 3 talent on this row would be attractive. (Despite the bad comment on it, I find Selfless healer really good as a talent for Hpal.)
  • Reduce the impact of Wings healing by a lot (50%?) in PvP instance (BG/RBG/Arena/Wargames/Ashran – Huhu -). I mean, instead of 3min CD : 20% haste/crit/damage + 100% healing. It will be 20% haste/crit/damage +50% healing in PvP. With glyph, wings will only increase healing by 25%.
  • Make glyph of flash of light not consumed by a single spell. Like the old grace from disc priest, +10% all healing during Xs after a flash of light. The idea is to have more constant healing and less burst with wings.
  • -X% damage on holy shock/denounce against PvP target.
  • One of the 2 solutions I write about Saved by the Light
  • Make Beacon of Insight off gcd, and not bouncing randomly with other’s people spell, and not bouncing UNTIL the target reach 90% life. Reduce the healing of the casted spell to 20%. So the spell would be a good alternative of a nerfed saved by the light (But still good.), or, a passive buff to casted heals on the beacon of insight. This talent is used nowhere, and it was already bug’d on the Beta.
  • Make plate armor a thing again. (The only thing I miss from TBC was when I was a huge wall against most of melee classes)
I can only dream of that, because I think it would be too much of changes for only one spec in the game. And of course, without changing PvP itself : having constant healing would not work in the current state of the game, when everything is bound to cooldowns. That’s why Hpal shine now, because the 6.1 buff give us the perfect CD to compensate our bad constant healing with a perfect CD rotation.


Great post +1
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#6 Phatkat

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 04:20 AM

Thanks for the response Jimjim, sorry I'm replying late but I wanted to take my time and use this chance to respond carefully since I have a lot of respect for you as a paladin.

Let me say to begin with that my post isn't really trying to address the underlying problems in the spec, although that would be nice, I'm just trying to suggest things so that when the nerfs come it isn't something stupid that will erase Hpala viability.

Despite the “easy find” solutions like making Outplayed by The Light an active ability or reverting the Execution Sentence buff, and make the spell like it was before, (= Useless and nobody will use it anymore.) or make it a huge HoT wouldn’t solve the problem, and people would not use it anymore too. (Because It can be purged, and it’s bugued when stolen by a mage – in the mage advantage of course -.). If you just change these 2 spells, without touching the core of hpal, and nerfing other classes abilities (Like offensive dispel), or changing anything else, don’t expect to see any hpal above 2000 rating, because everyone will crush them without effort.


I agree that these 2 CDs are the core of what makes paladins strong atm. In SBTL's case, people really hate how it's automatic and can activate on your whole team, so I tried to reduce that aspect while keeping it a strong active ability. But I think the easy solution is just to nerf the shield or debuff yeah. And if ES was changed into a HoT, I don't think it would really be that good either if it was the previous version. Maybe if it did all the same healing but over 3 seconds? There would be 2 globals to purge it, and it wouldn't top instantly, but still be strong.

I do think that pally ES is still worse design than the other healers' versions. You say the condition for it is wings, but that's also off global, and the ability is still strong without it especially if you denounced an agility spec recently. It might do similar healing but you can't compare it to Saving grace because disc can't crit (still might proc aegis, but that's not nearly as solid as raw healing).


About pally healing CDs: I agree with you, wings atm is silly, and there's almost no reason to play without the glyph because it's so powerful even at half strength. Especially with it being 1.5 mins and having NS to close up any gaps, if you trade CDs optimally vs other healers you will come out on top eventually which is part of why pallies are so much better.

I sort of liked how it used to be, where you had 3 or so really powerful CDs with DF, GOAK, and wings (plus maybe on-use) but all on long CDs, so if the game went on any longer than 5 minutes you could be in serious trouble, which is sort of why pallies used to have a good niche for rushdown 3-minute-win cleaves, I think. I miss the gameplay of having to rotate your CDs perfectly to do well :/. With only wings for healing CDs we can't have that kind of design in the more cd-based meta.


I think the overarching problem is that the metagame since WOD, MOP, and maybe Cata, has shifted from where every DPS did decent steady pve damage at most times, enough to score a kill without relying on CDs (because in wrath only a few classes even had big 3minute damage CDs, and now everyone has multiple ones) so you had to sort of rely on your positioning and reactive mechanics (making plays like deathing, interrupts, CCing trinkets, clutch dispels, good CC timing) to get ahead in the game. Now, everyone has CDs upon CDs, offensive and defensive, and the meta is less about making plays and having good reactions and strats, and more of trading cooldowns efficiently to get ahead of the other team - I prefer the old way, but it only worked because healthbars moved way faster all the time than they do now.

This is my own perception of my hpal, so you can debate with it.

  • Increase the healing of Eternal Flame in PvP by like 50%, and make the HoT undispellable. This cool spell is useless now considering you need 3 holy power, a cast, to have a 30s dispellable HoT which tick for nothing. All 3 talent on this row would be attractive. (Despite the bad comment on it, I find Selfless healer really good as a talent for Hpal.)


Personally, I don't really like EF compared to Sacred shield - if you made this change (it being undispellable but stronger) it would be good for the healing, but you get no shield and purge protection like you get from SS, so it still wouldn't be that great IMO. I don't think EF can be incentivized enough for PVP without more general changes to holy power generation and WOG. And Selfless Healer takes too many globals to ever be useful in the current state.

  • Make glyph of flash of light not consumed by a single spell. Like the old grace from disc priest, +10% all healing during Xs after a flash of light. The idea is to have more constant healing and less burst with wings.
  • -X% damage on holy shock/denounce against PvP target.
  • One of the 2 solutions I write about Saved by the Light


All of these are good - I really like the Flash of light glyph, if it only disappeared from being purged it would add a bit more depth to pala healing but it might have to be buffed a bit before the glyph slot would be worth it more than 15% of the time :(. Also, I'm not sure how relevant in PVE healer damage is, so you might not have to make the denounce dmg nerf pvp-specific.

Make Beacon of Insight off gcd, and not bouncing randomly with other’s people spell, and not bouncing UNTIL the target reach 90% life. Reduce the healing of the casted spell to 20%. So the spell would be a good alternative of a nerfed saved by the light (But still good.), or, a passive buff to casted heals on the beacon of insight. This talent is used nowhere, and it was already bug’d on the Beta.


I've played around with it a bit and I actually really like this spell. The things that are really holding it back, is that it's on global, only lasts for 1 cast, and that it's competing with SBTL. It has really good synergy with the infusion of light change (fol default is ~20k, with infusion it's 31.5k, and with infusion+insight it's 44k in my gear) and with the FOL glyph could be even better. I hope it does get buffed because it looks fun.

But yes, I doubt Blizzard would implement such an overhaul at this point of an expansion, or even next expansion - but the best we can do is communicate to them what we want. Thanks for the reply and thanks for reading my posts, have a nice day :)
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#7 lumenous

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 04:31 AM

Who plays paladins? Probably holinka. If you play a paladin, aren't you guaranteed to be someone not worth hanging out with IRL? Maybe it's just a rumor.
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#8 Rorechec

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 02:33 AM

Who plays paladins? Probably holinka. If you play a paladin, aren't you guaranteed to be someone not worth hanging out with IRL? Maybe it's just a rumor.


Armsmaster Holinka wearing paladin gear

Coincidence? I don't think so.


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#9 Deonia

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 02:53 PM

That looks like a ret paladin to me.
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