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Mutilate Combat Subtlety

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#21 Maumaux

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 06:25 PM

I'm expecting sin to be the big hype but tbh once people realize that you should be treating vendetta like the rogue activated feral druid mode they'll know how to 'counter' it.

Especially the mongo's q'ing skirmishes right now. Every time, vendetta on the opener or first kidney. You trinket+cloak and you win. (Just a tip, envenom does 0 damage while you have cloak up). RMX with mut rogues are actually going to be super easy to live against as a rogue compared to other comps.

I've yet to lose to a mut rogue even when I give them the opener, it's such a gimmick spec and I don't really think the sustain (which doesn't matter since this game is still 95% using burst CD's without an answer to get kills) matters.

If anything, I'd see most top players still running combat, it got 0 nerfs to it's damage.
Play sub. Fuck bitches.

Combat got buffed damage though. 10 % more effectiveness from mastery. Having to blow everything if you get opened on in the opener doesn't sound fun or skillfull. Vendetta gets removed with cloak right?
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#22 Lloix

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 06:45 PM

Combat got buffed damage though. 10 % more effectiveness from mastery. Having to blow everything if you get opened on in the opener doesn't sound fun or skillfull. Vendetta gets removed with cloak right?


Yes you're saying the same thing as I am in regards to combat. It got a damage buff. It requires more setup now to land kills with it as you have to get better cross cc or waste your cloak if you think you're going to land a kill. I don't mind that there's more (even if its go from 0 to any) setup needed to score a kill.

I'm all for faster games. Even if I hate the fact that the game revolves around using CD's, I'd still prefer that if you make a mistake and misuse a CD you'll end up dead. I also think DPS having heals is retarded but I may be too far gone from the general PvP group playing this game currently to find many who agree with me there (and it's a whole separate topic).

The idea of a mut rogue blowing offensive AND defensive CD's to try and mongo you is fine, because you have plenty of ways to get out of it. Yes trinketing the opener may sound dumb, but again I'm referring to when you get vendetta put on you, and the bomb you in the opener, which would be the only situation in which your healer doesn't have anything else to help you. A 2 min CD for a 2 min CD seems like a fair trade, and considering how mut burst is designed you really can't get punished for using a trinket+something else.

Vendetta doesn't get removed from cloak, so if you're going to use vanish you should at least expect to cheap him asap.

It's also tricky to talk about this in a sort of vacuum as it isn't a 1v1 situation that matters. In 3's you'll have numerous options to counter their burst, which again is only really bad during the 2m CD. They still have dangerous burst as trinket+MfD+DFA+Vanish all share the 1 min CD.

On paper dance should be the better burst as it's dance, but I'm not doubting that bad players will be frustrated when they get kidney'd once every minute and risk dying because they/their partners won't react fast enough.
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#23 Cradienz

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 06:56 PM

Vendetta gets removed with cloak right?


No it doesn't remove it :P, Also Cloak can only initially immune the first Envenom, the rest should hit through it.

Edited by Cradienz, 24 June 2015 - 06:59 PM.

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#24 Lemuria

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 07:34 PM

Yes you're saying the same thing as I am in regards to combat. It got a damage buff. It requires more setup now to land kills with it as you have to get better cross cc or waste your cloak if you think you're going to land a kill. I don't mind that there's more (even if its go from 0 to any) setup needed to score a kill.

I'm all for faster games. Even if I hate the fact that the game revolves around using CD's, I'd still prefer that if you make a mistake and misuse a CD you'll end up dead. I also think DPS having heals is retarded but I may be too far gone from the general PvP group playing this game currently to find many who agree with me there (and it's a whole separate topic).

The idea of a mut rogue blowing offensive AND defensive CD's to try and mongo you is fine, because you have plenty of ways to get out of it. Yes trinketing the opener may sound dumb, but again I'm referring to when you get vendetta put on you, and the bomb you in the opener, which would be the only situation in which your healer doesn't have anything else to help you. A 2 min CD for a 2 min CD seems like a fair trade, and considering how mut burst is designed you really can't get punished for using a trinket+something else.

Vendetta doesn't get removed from cloak, so if you're going to use vanish you should at least expect to cheap him asap.

It's also tricky to talk about this in a sort of vacuum as it isn't a 1v1 situation that matters. In 3's you'll have numerous options to counter their burst, which again is only really bad during the 2m CD. They still have dangerous burst as trinket+MfD+DFA+Vanish all share the 1 min CD.

On paper dance should be the better burst as it's dance, but I'm not doubting that bad players will be frustrated when they get kidney'd once every minute and risk dying because they/their partners won't react fast enough.


In that case, won't assassin be better to run shadow reflection and open more like the combat does? So if they trinket the first kidney they still get a second DR one, which is totally fine, plus the damage from your shadow. Seems like a good burst as well as good pressure. Thoughts?
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#25 Maumaux

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 09:14 PM

In that case, won't assassin be better to run shadow reflection and open more like the combat does? So if they trinket the first kidney they still get a second DR one, which is totally fine, plus the damage from your shadow. Seems like a good burst as well as good pressure. Thoughts?

It should but i don't think it benefits from Vendetta, Nightstalker or Mastery. So i think the damage will be mediocre and mostly used for double kidney with Prey on the weak and x2 blinds
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#26 Refren

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 09:25 PM

combat is still the best.
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#27 Maumaux

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 09:57 PM

combat is still the best.

Hate to say it but Combat is best now because it takes more skill than Sin, but Sin has double the burst and can be used when you want, not when you have red buff. Just barfed in my mouth a bit.
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#28 Stealthsultn

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 10:16 PM

Yes you're saying the same thing as I am in regards to combat. It got a damage buff. It requires more setup now to land kills with it as you have to get better cross cc or waste your cloak if you think you're going to land a kill. I don't mind that there's more (even if its go from 0 to any) setup needed to score a kill.

I'm all for faster games. Even if I hate the fact that the game revolves around using CD's, I'd still prefer that if you make a mistake and misuse a CD you'll end up dead. I also think DPS having heals is retarded but I may be too far gone from the general PvP group playing this game currently to find many who agree with me there (and it's a whole separate topic).

The idea of a mut rogue blowing offensive AND defensive CD's to try and mongo you is fine, because you have plenty of ways to get out of it. Yes trinketing the opener may sound dumb, but again I'm referring to when you get vendetta put on you, and the bomb you in the opener, which would be the only situation in which your healer doesn't have anything else to help you. A 2 min CD for a 2 min CD seems like a fair trade, and considering how mut burst is designed you really can't get punished for using a trinket+something else.

Vendetta doesn't get removed from cloak, so if you're going to use vanish you should at least expect to cheap him asap.

It's also tricky to talk about this in a sort of vacuum as it isn't a 1v1 situation that matters. In 3's you'll have numerous options to counter their burst, which again is only really bad during the 2m CD. They still have dangerous burst as trinket+MfD+DFA+Vanish all share the 1 min CD.

On paper dance should be the better burst as it's dance, but I'm not doubting that bad players will be frustrated when they get kidney'd once every minute and risk dying because they/their partners won't react fast enough.


In don't think dance is better damage even on paper than MFD-envenom, vanish-DFA even without vendetta.

-Your speaking only from a rogue persepective, from my experience I am hoping that another Sin rogue opens rogue and not on a healer.

Some classes just cannot survive mutilate opener done properly. In the current state of the game vanish DFA can do around 30-40k on way up and 90k-130k on the way down so your generally going to get most of thier cooldowns in the opener.

-for instance as a resto shaman there is a good chance you can both die by linking on mutilate opener in 2s. (its 2s, but still dumb)

+++This might actually be more aids than combat, and its easier by a long shot.
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#29 Maumaux

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 10:51 PM

In don't think dance is better damage even on paper than MFD-envenom, vanish-DFA even without vendetta.

-Your speaking only from a rogue persepective, from my experience I am hoping that another Sin rogue opens rogue and not on a healer.

Some classes just cannot survive mutilate opener done properly. In the current state of the game vanish DFA can do around 30-40k on way up and 90k-130k on the way down so your generally going to get most of thier cooldowns in the opener.

-for instance as a resto shaman there is a good chance you can both die by linking on mutilate opener in 2s. (its 2s, but still dumb)

+++This might actually be more aids than combat, and its easier by a long shot.

Have to remember that vanish > DFA only applies the nightstalker buff and 100% crit to the small AOE effect of DFA not the Envenom, becuase the AOE is the first attack. Be better off just Vanish > Envenom again. DFA would be used when you have no more vanishes.
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#30 Ashleyirl

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 11:44 PM

well, sub damage is laughable - hemo hits for 2k avg and backstab 3-4k and only damage inside dance


its pathetic how blizzard make a spec so fun and versatile so completely fucking useless
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#31 Stealthsultn

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 05:34 AM

Have to remember that vanish > DFA only applies the nightstalker buff and 100% crit to the small AOE effect of DFA not the Envenom, becuase the AOE is the first attack. Be better off just Vanish > Envenom again. DFA would be used when you have no more vanishes.


I think your right, now I want to test this. Mmm, so Mark DFA into a vanish envenom. Getting a perfect dance as sub still not satisfying...gg blizz


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#32 Sniz

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 06:45 AM

Have to remember that vanish > DFA only applies the nightstalker buff and 100% crit to the small AOE effect of DFA not the Envenom, becuase the AOE is the first attack. Be better off just Vanish > Envenom again. DFA would be used when you have no more vanishes.


That's correct for nightstalker but actually incorrect for set bonus, as the 100% (cold blooded) is only applied to your next dispatch, mutilate or envenom, which in this case would be the dfa envenom. Therefore vanish into cheap into dfa = awesome
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#33 Lloix

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 01:31 PM

In that case, won't assassin be better to run shadow reflection and open more like the combat does? So if they trinket the first kidney they still get a second DR one, which is totally fine, plus the damage from your shadow. Seems like a good burst as well as good pressure. Thoughts?


As someone else said, the shadow reflection does NOT get any of the buffs you have active during the setup time. It only copies your special abilities, not auto attacks.

Another main reason, that's pretty clear from what everyone has said, is that the 'burst' with mut comes from the vanish+DfA combo (if you're playing nightstalker go fuck yourself). DfA hits for a good amount more than envenom does, and I wouldn't replace that with a mediocre 2 min CD. MfD+Envenom > Vanish+Garrote/Cheap > DfA combo every minute is pretty real.
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#34 Maumaux

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 06:31 PM

That's correct for nightstalker but actually incorrect for set bonus, as the 100% (cold blooded) is only applied to your next dispatch, mutilate or envenom, which in this case would be the dfa envenom. Therefore vanish into cheap into dfa = awesome

Ah thanks for the catch. Played Combat so didn't really need 4 set thought it was just your next attack.
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#35 Vaneesh

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 09:09 AM

So long as Backstab and Ambush are Multistrike-reliant (and so long as Multistrike chance remains gimped in PvP), Sub will never be optimal as anything other than a Best Friends Forever support spec.

I don't get why Blizzard went the 1x Multistrike for +30% damage route for PvP balance. 2x Multistrike chance for +15% damage would have achieved the same desired result without wrecking certain specs along the way.

For now, Sub represents a niche PvE/PvP spec (basically, avoid unless you know exactly what you are doing) while Mut represents that middle-of-the-ground spec that does "okay" at everything.

Combat will generally remain best for Arena, at all skill levels, because there is never a time where ignoring a Combat Rogue won't bite you in the ass... while Mut Rogues are very manageable outside of Vendetta, and much easier targets due to energy starvation and yolo vanish.
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#36 Lloix

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 02:43 PM

I've said before that the two ways they could buff sub would be sustained damage outside of dance (through increased backstab and rupture damage - note rupture already got a buff this patch), or by increasing damage within dance by buffing evis further.

The better route would be to increase sustain damage outside of dance, otherwise the spec turns into yet another retard-friendly thing that anyone can pick up provided they know a decent rotation during dace.

When I was playing PTR I didn't think the damage was all that bad compared to what it was during 6.1. I still hold that the spec could do well with comps like BM, boomkin, or destro lock. However at higher play the latter two options seem a bit weak due to all of the comps cc dr'ing itself (including the healer's, which would most likely be a pally/druid).
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#37 meater

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Posted 27 June 2015 - 07:09 PM

As someone else said, the shadow reflection does NOT get any of the buffs you have active during the setup time. It only copies your special abilities, not auto attacks.

Another main reason, that's pretty clear from what everyone has said, is that the 'burst' with mut comes from the vanish+DfA combo (if you're playing nightstalker go fuck yourself). DfA hits for a good amount more than envenom does, and I wouldn't replace that with a mediocre 2 min CD. MfD+Envenom > Vanish+Garrote/Cheap > DfA combo every minute is pretty real.

I'm pretty sure your clone will also apply Vendetta, at least it did last patch.
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#38 ContortedTV

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Posted 27 June 2015 - 07:28 PM

well, sub damage is laughable - hemo hits for 2k avg and backstab 3-4k and only damage inside dance


its pathetic how blizzard make a spec so fun and versatile so completely fucking useless


This. 100% this.

While people are actively posting in this, what's everyone's thoughts on Nightstalker for Mutilate at the moment?

I've been playing Subterfuge because of how good Subterfuge is. I haven't played around with Nightstalker so I'm not sure if the extra damage equates to more kills than the extra CC of Subterfuge.

What I've been doing: Kidney->MFD->DFA->Vanish->envenom->Mutilate->Cheap->Dispatch.

Been bursting every ~1 Minute and saving a Preparation for a defensive Vanish (which is in my opinion the biggest weakness of Mutilate, the lack of a defensive Vanish).

Thoughts?
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#39 Sniz

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 12:42 AM

This. 100% this.

While people are actively posting in this, what's everyone's thoughts on Nightstalker for Mutilate at the moment?

I've been playing Subterfuge because of how good Subterfuge is. I haven't played around with Nightstalker so I'm not sure if the extra damage equates to more kills than the extra CC of Subterfuge.

What I've been doing: Kidney->MFD->DFA->Vanish->envenom->Mutilate->Cheap->Dispatch.

Been bursting every ~1 Minute and saving a Preparation for a defensive Vanish (which is in my opinion the biggest weakness of Mutilate, the lack of a defensive Vanish).

Thoughts?


I'm no where near as good of a player as you so take any of my comments with that in mind.. But I completely hate nightstalker. Unless I'm doing something wrong it feels like I lose half my moves and I'm playing handicapped character when I don't take it.. And just for a more dangerous opener? But I think a subterfuge opener is more scary anyway.. What would you prefer?

Cheap - rupture - mfd - vend - dfa - vanish - nightstalker envenom - spam damage

Or

Cheap - rupture - mfd - vend - dfa -vanish - cheap - envenom - garrote - spam damage

Assuming you're opening on a caster the second seems way more dangerous, as you also have more stun uptime for prey on the week which your partner can capitalize on.

Playing with a dk im sure a lot of classes will get destroyed in that second opener (given at my shitty ratings, it may be much different higher up!
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#40 ContortedTV

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 02:14 AM

I'm no where near as good of a player as you so take any of my comments with that in mind


You made me blush. I'm actually awful, but thanks for the compliment! I'm sure you're much better than you actually think :)

I prefer the second opener personally, it just makes more sense to run Subterfuge considering how strong the talent is in general.

Keep in mind, the second opener is fine if you switch the Cheap out for Garrote (assuming you mean on a mage).

Edited by ContortedTV, 28 June 2015 - 02:14 AM.

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