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Next Season Rogue Spec?

Mutilate Combat Subtlety

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#1 ContortedTV

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 06:04 PM

All right guys, what do people think the next top spec will be? I've tested everything except combat on the PTR (to a very small extent, 1 hour for each spec at most lol) so I'm just trying to gather opinions.

I'm obviously aware about Mutilate's huge burst potential, but I'm curious about it's consistency.

So from my gatherings:

Assassination

Pros
  • VERY high burst.
  • No RNG involved in burst.
  • Okay'ish sustained damage
  • Burst is pretty hard to peel (invincible during DFA animation)
Cons
  • Out of energy, out of energy.
  • Out of energy, out of energy.
  • Burst comes from DFA, which tends to bug out sometimes.
  • If you use Vanish's defensively, your burst is mehh but still okay.
  • Most boring out of the 3 spec's (in my opinion)
  • EDIT: Vendetta is on a decently long CD.

Subtlety

Pros
  • Consistent burst damage.
  • Fun (in my opinion)
  • Most control out of the 3 specs.
  • Imp Fan of knives for combo point generatio
  • Easy time cross-CC'ing (Less reliant on Kidney on kill target, but I think Assassination benefits from this fact as well)
  • Scales well with gear.
  • EDIT: 6.2 Trinkets back on 1 minute-CD, every Dance will have an on-use associated with it.
Cons
  • Mastery nerf hurts sustained damage (most damage outside of Dance/Find Weakness comes from Backstab Multistrikes and getting a Rupture tick from it) though this is only 8%.
  • Backstab hits like a noodle.
  • Rupture? Not really a con, but it is an extra step for bursting.
Combat...

Pros
  • Skilling Spree
  • Good sustained damage.
  • Good burst damage.
  • Two very good burst cooldowns.
Cons
  • Sinister Strike, Sinister Strike, Sinister Strike
  • Ignoring half the people you queue into b/c "LOL COMBAT FAG"
  • Killing Spree can now be peeled effectively.
  • Super boring and one-dimensional (in my opinion)
  • Not Season 1 WOD.
Okay, that's a very narrow list that's missing A LOT of things from it, but I think it's enough to get some discussion going.

The combat list is pretty bad, because like I said; I haven't spent any time testing combat on the PTR.

What're people's thoughts on 6.2 rogue?

Edited by ContortedTV, 20 June 2015 - 06:08 PM.

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#2

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 07:51 PM

Just go with the heart of the cards
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#3 Stealthsultn

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 08:12 PM

All of these points are spot on.

It looks like the 2 best specs are going to be combat and mutilate, but I'm personally going to go Sub.

-mutilate definitely the most boring, find myself looking for my s&d key and reallize that its really just that simple.

-combat is combat (we all know how it plays at this point)

-Sub: dance still feels like it could use a little bit more cowbell. FON as a pirmary combo builder is very strange and 100 talents don't seem to fit sub as well as the other specs.
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#4 ContortedTV

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 08:30 PM

All of these points are spot on.

It looks like the 2 best specs are going to be combat and mutilate, but I'm personally going to go Sub.

-mutilate definitely the most boring, find myself looking for my s&d key and reallize that its really just that simple.

-combat is combat (we all know how it plays at this point)

-Sub: dance still feels like it could use a little bit more cowbell. FON as a pirmary combo builder is very strange and 100 talents don't seem to fit sub as well as the other specs.


My main concern with Assassination is being pigeonholed into being a 100% glass cannon and being required to get your "Swifty" off.

Like I said, if you're forced to use both vanishes defensively for whatever reason, your burst gets hurt significantly.

This being said, I'm probably over exaggerating your need to get Vendetta->DFA->vanish->envenom off since every class does a significant amount of damage. I'm just worried that Assassination will be stuck in the same spot that Arcane was in previous seasons (gigantic burst potential, but inconsistent and makes the game downhill if you did not get your burst off).

EDIT: Holy shit I actually managed to say "being" three times in one sentence.

Edited by ContortedTV, 20 June 2015 - 08:32 PM.

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#5 koce

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 10:16 PM

These are my thoughts on what specs would be the best for some popular combos based on my PTR xp :
1.Combat for RMD,RMP
2.Assasination for Thug,DK/R/healer
3.Sub for RLS,RLD.

As for how I feel about the specs :

1. Combat - From what I've seen on the PTR has the best sustained dmg,as well as great burst...KS nerf isnt a big deal in RMD,RMP and rogue/boomy/healer.
2. Sub - I haven't tested it out,but from fighting sub rogues on the PTR,I think sub is a slightly better than what it is on LIVE.
3. Assasination - Retarded burst,but it requires blowing all of your cd's,sustained is ok,but combat seems to do more sustained dmg on the PTR.

I think rogues are gona be in a good spot in season 17,with that said 90s cloak of shadows is gona be a problem vs 6.2 Frost mages/Affl locks...
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#6 ContortedTV

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 10:18 PM

90s cloak of shadows is gona be a problem vs 6.2 Frost mages/Affl locks...


I personally like the Cloak of Shadows change. I think we will see a lot less "Yolo cloaking" going on.

That being said, this might also promote "find the pillar for 90s" more, and that is not okay.
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#7 koce

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 10:47 PM

I personally like the Cloak of Shadows change. I think we will see a lot less "Yolo cloaking" going on.

That being said, this might also promote "find the pillar for 90s" more, and that is not okay.


I agree...90s Cloak of Shadows nerf was needed,along with Deadly Throw(it was too much against some casters).

EDIT : A little bit off topic :
Other concern that comes to mind is fighting FMP,as Faerie Fire is still the same and Ferals and Frost Mages are getting dmg buffs...
I'm afraid that the Hpalla version of this combo is gona be "pain in the ass" to fight against with 90s CoS...
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#8 Stealthsultn

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Posted 21 June 2015 - 02:22 AM

I hate using vanish to bust as assassination: it just feels like bad yolo gameplay. Just don't like it.
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#9 ContortedTV

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Posted 21 June 2015 - 12:50 PM

I hate using vanish to bust as assassination: it just feels like bad yolo gameplay. Just don't like it.


Absolutely agree. That's my main concern with Assassination to be completely honest. That and it's the most boring of the 3-specs in my opinion.
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#10 Dollyo

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Posted 21 June 2015 - 06:44 PM

Absolutely agree. That's my main concern with Assassination to be completely honest. That and it's the most boring of the 3-specs in my opinion.

That's the way Blizz want us to play rogue: mindlessly. You can confirm that just looking at how combat is now.
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#11 mirag

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 04:08 PM

I like Assassination more than Combat simply because energypooling for big envenom dumps imo is way more fun than obsessing over some stupid buff. Also multidoting for wound poison, venomous wounds and energy regen as RLP seems interesting.
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#12 ContortedTV

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 10:49 PM

I like Assassination more than Combat simply because energypooling for big envenom dumps imo is way more fun than obsessing over some stupid buff. Also multidoting for wound poison, venomous wounds and energy regen as RLP seems interesting.


Multidotting like this is actually very effective on 6.1, we will see how it translates over in 6.2.

I'm honestly so surprised no one played (to my knowledge) Mutilate RLPala to high rating this season.

Oh wait, Combat =/

I just find Mutilate very boring, even compared to Combat lol. Maybe that's why I'm trying to make some kind of excuse.
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#13 Stealthsultn

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 11:43 PM

I think the problem with mutilate being boring stems from a lack of buttons to hit. (no point in stating why, you play the spec you know why)

-pooling energy is interesting, but you really don't have to pool THAT much energy to burst as mutilate because of relentless strikes.

-You can generally do your full burst rotation at 50/60 energy:

[Rupture on target + 4/5 combos +vendetta]

[Envenom/Kidney Shot]

[MFD Envenom]

[Vanish DFA]
(and if super yolo)
[Prep + Vanish + Envenom]

This can be done easily with ~50 energy, the reason is that DFA is actually a net energy gain after finishing the animation, after DFA you will have about 50/60 energy.

++Tell me if I'm missing anything
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#14 mirag

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Posted 23 June 2015 - 06:50 PM

The envenom buff.
You want to keep it up as much as possible. Every time you press envenom at 25 energy and than cant mutilate/dispatch 1-2 times during the envenom buff you will miss out on 30% on them and a bunch of wound poison procs.
Hopefully what you do outside your 2 min will matter. But yeah it makes sense to ignore the envenom buff during your swifty envenom spam witch is quite sad.

I really think they need to scrap the 4p for assassination. It promotes mongo gameplay.
Replace it with deadly brew and take a little bit of the damage from envenom out and put it into mutilate and dispatch and the spec would play a lot better.
Either way im happy if i get to play something else than combat or this expansions shitty incarnation of sub.

Edited by mirag, 23 June 2015 - 06:52 PM.

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#15 Lloix

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Posted 23 June 2015 - 10:11 PM

Backstab still hits for nothing.
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#16 Stealthsultn

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 12:16 AM

Sub is a bad joke that is not getting any more funny blizz.......

Might just have to play shammy this season: mutilate is actually dumber than combat.
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#17 user_543622

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 12:48 AM

I personally like the Cloak of Shadows change. I think we will see a lot less "Yolo cloaking" going on.

That being said, this might also promote "find the pillar for 90s" more, and that is not okay.

Good luck surviving against sp/mage with +30 sec on cloak. It is nearly impossible with 60 sec cd on it. Totally unnecessary that they nerfed it, but its blizzard logic - lets nerf something that has nothing to do with rogues being retarded rather than nerf KS and damage from insights for combat rogues.
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#18 Lolflay

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 01:31 AM

Good luck surviving against sp/mage with +30 sec on cloak. It is nearly impossible with 60 sec cd on it. Totally unnecessary that they nerfed it, but its blizzard logic - lets nerf something that has nothing to do with rogues being retarded rather than nerf KS and damage from insights for combat rogues.


mye, I think 6.2 will prolly be s8 all over again when it's about rogue survivability vs caster cleaves due to damage buffs and cloak nerf, sucks
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#19 Maumaux

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 06:14 PM

Ya Sin is more mongo and more damage than Combat ever was. Given you have to use both vanishes and run night stalker but i have been getting 100-0 in a 6 second kidney in opener, having to trinket a 6 second kidney in first 2 seconds of the game seems like the new meta.

At least with Combat you had to ramp up which made games last longer. This is 2v2 though haven't seen it in 3v3 yet.

This is not in full gear either, i can only imagine what will happen then. Dead in a 4 second cheap?
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#20 Lloix

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 06:21 PM

I'm expecting sin to be the big hype but tbh once people realize that you should be treating vendetta like the rogue activated feral druid mode they'll know how to 'counter' it.

Especially the mongo's q'ing skirmishes right now. Every time, vendetta on the opener or first kidney. You trinket+cloak and you win. (Just a tip, envenom does 0 damage while you have cloak up). RMX with mut rogues are actually going to be super easy to live against as a rogue compared to other comps.

I've yet to lose to a mut rogue even when I give them the opener, it's such a gimmick spec and I don't really think the sustain (which doesn't matter since this game is still 95% using burst CD's without an answer to get kills) matters.

If anything, I'd see most top players still running combat, it got 0 nerfs to it's damage.
Play sub. Fuck bitches.
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