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PvP concerns, Dmg/CC/Healing

pvp dmg healing cc

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#1 ProdeGaming

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 06:45 PM

Could healing or dmg or CC be overpowered in general? Let's assume that this is clear for most players that they can be.
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Let's pick just one, healing and check a few cases/concerns.
What makes healing overpowered?


Easily recognizable op healing could be, similar to the recently buffed Execution Sentence with Avenging Wrath. It's usually not the gameplay what players would like to see, the target getting healed from 10% back up to nearly full HP instantly.

Basically, talking about a heal that heals for a huge % of HP, often deemed op.


So possible question, does a heal need to heal for high % of HP to become op?
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This heal heals the warrior for only 2% HP, however, if the mage is doing this kind of dmg, this healing is very overpowered.

So a heal needs to heal for high % of HP to become op. No, it does not. It's enough if it's op relative to dmg.

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What else do players not like? Frequent concern is that classes are only good when CDs are up and then feel meh without. Let's stay with holy paladin, during Avenging Wrath, it's amazing but without it's meh.

The healing could look similar as in this example.
Posted Image

Suggestion is often to reduce effectiveness of Avenging Wrath, so it's not so outstanding compared to the healing without it and compensate this nerf by buffing the regular heals.

So basically, what players are asking for is to not make that peak on the graph so high and to bring those no cd 'meh' heals up to make it a constant decent healing.

Essentially to bring the outstanding lines closer to the overall HPS.
Posted Image


This is usually the case also when it comes to dmg classes, warriors would like to do good dmg without Avatar Recklessness too and with regular abilities, not just wait for Execute proc. Ferals usually would like bleed dmg get buffed and stuff like Ferocious Bite and Incarnation burst get nerfed etc.
Practically it's the same example graph, only that it's for dmg and not healing.


So the suggestion is that dmg and healing should get closer to the overall HPS and DPS.


What this means is that it could be said about the suggested classes that
Posted Image

By this, the HPS and DPS of classes give a much better estimate of the classes actual strength.

Is that good? Surely it is, HPS and DPS is most likely relatively easy to balance. For example Hybrids can be much more balanced, because the HPS they gain from abilities can much more easily be evaluated and weighed as a performance gain. Basically when it comes to putting a class together, it can be evaluated much better how much the worth of a Shield Wall or a Gouge is. In fact when it comes to PvP, as soon as CC comes into play, the strength of CC is way easier calculated, as the loss your class' performance suffers is much more constant. While with very spiky dmg and healing, the effect of CC is much less certain and very varying.
So not only does it make the game more enjoyable, but also makes balancing way more convenient and easier, ultimately making the balance better. Because essentially, the closer dmg and healing gets to HPS and DPS, the more precisely they help decode any ability to see its worth, for example to solve the issue of 'this dmg class has this much healing, how much CC or defensive cd should I give the other dmg class to compete with that healing?'.

So now it's just a matter of for example healer HPS within their class roles being balanced, same for DPS.
Posted Image


Once done, since it's at the beginning of the thread that healing can be op compared to just dmg alone, now HPS and DPS should get compared to each other.


What comparison even? Well it should be balanced for 3v3, so HPS should be about 2x as high as DPS.
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The lower ratio HPS has, the less CC healing needs, since DPS needs less aid to overcome healing.

Jump back to the live game, what is this ratio there? From an around 6.1 calculation, this ratio is about 3:1. That's 150% of the desired HPS. Since it should be around 2:1 to have just a decent amount of CC, 3:1 ratio requires much more CC to exist than originally wanted, especially against healers.

So it needs a fix before the player gameplay desires could happen.
Posted Image

Assuming healers' HPS within their class roles are close equal 1:1 ratio, they shouldn't be individually changed to achieve the above. Instead, all of them should get the same reduction, so they keep their equal HPS.

A reduction that reduces all their healing by the same amount is Battle Fatigue, which however is a ruled out change by the players. So since the required change is ruled out, what players are asking for, more constant and less spiky dmg, less CC cannot be achieved, essentially impossibility.


Since the wishes cannot be achieved, but a fix to this ratio is desired and also since CC is already often bordering eternity, the only possible change to fix the issue is to not bring HPS down but bring DPS up. It is what's happening 6.2, for it's the only feasible change left to overcome the excess of healing as long as an equal effect as Battle Fatigue is off the table.

Should it be? No.


Posted Image


Battle fatigue got so much hate because it is a lazy way to "fix" things. It treats healers as if they are all equal and furthers the homogenization even more. Sure it is easier for Blizzard to balance and easier for the player base to absorb, but it leads to discrepancies (usually shamans end up on top since their utility is so great, and their burst healing has always been strong).

I understand what you're saying, though. But I don't think battle fatigue is the *best* solution (it is a "solution"). I would rather have them provide nerfs to healing individually (on a class-by-class basis). And in a perfect world, I'd have them address mana (since mana really isn't an issue until late late dampening), and finally fine tune burst damage to match with the healing nerfs. Obviously these changes would have to be PvP specific (since the current state of healing is entirely due to PvE), and that may be a big road block in going forward since that is against Holinka's philosophy.

In a sense, Battle Fatigue or an equal effect is not -a- solution, it's -the only- way, looking at it as it cannot be skipped, is a required change, a tool to achieve something.

To make it maybe a bit more spectacular, could use a similar example to the current issue.

So the suggested issues are:

  • Too high burst
  • Too much CC
  • Healers die easily
  • However HPS being higher than DPS
Posted Image

Being unable to skip the use of Battle Fatigue or an equal effect is because healers' HPS is already balanced. So if you try to skip it and decrease each healers healing spells 1 by 1, in this case by monstrous percentages, there is gonna be a minimum % you've decreased every spell by. So since all their spells have been decreased by that %, it's the equal effect as Battle Fatigue, even tho the intent was to avoid it, essentially used it regardless.


Other issue could be that there are some spells that are already weak and need no reduction.
Posted Image

So basically Battle Fatigue or an equal effect could potentially be more efficient change to fix the majority of, in this case healing issue.
At the same time, the majority of the issue can get huge enough so that it's simply no longer feasible to be, cannot be replaced by a series of single spell changes.

It may as well look very lazy to change so many spells all at at the same time, but in case changing 800 spells 1 by 1 is not feasible, then not using an overall reduction is going to prevent doing anything at all. Because can't go 1 by 1 but can't reduce all either, so cannot do anything.
But if all spells do get reduced, then it's potentially going to be feasible to fix those that were already balanced, essentially be able to do more than if all spells didn't get reduced.


These could be issues because Battle Fatigue or an equal effect may very well sound like a universal fix that makes PvP suddenly amazing. But it isn't, it's just a piece of a series of different changes to achieve something, but it cannot be skipped.


Such series of different changes, following all healing reduction could be
Posted Image

Edited by ProdeGaming, 21 May 2015 - 07:49 PM.

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#2 Pinka

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 10:02 PM

Assuming the healer can heal. But in reality he is chain cced.
But overall. Both damage and healing cooldowns are too high. And passive dps/ hps too low.

Back in the day some classes didn't even have cooldowns and they just had to do it with clever use of cc and counterplay. Some exeptions where out there. (which made those classes unique in such a department.)

Cooldowns back then was just spending more mana on expensive spells driving the healer oom.
Defensives were used to survive a bit longer when you were on the urge to die not to prevent getting 1 shot.
The game didn't need dampening cause pretty much healer mana was dampening.

Back to the healing. It is usually more then one source of damage comming in on a target. In a normal 3v3 game its 2 dps vs 1 healer.


Edited by Pinka, 17 May 2015 - 10:21 PM.

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#3 Arteqt

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 10:40 PM

This looks like start but there are some other stuff this calculation doesn't take into account.

6.2 burst video looks like a good place to start to me. 100-0 burst takes between 3-12 seconds for all classes. Average is about 7. Now, since its 2xDPS a 100-0 burst takes 3.5 seconds for an average comp. It takes 1.5 second(s?) for the best burst comp. These numbers are less than a stun. Meaning if you don't have your trinket as a healer = you are dead.

Since most kills happen in a stun and CC 100-0 burst times should be adjusted to that. For example, no class should be able to 100-0 someone in less than 6 seconds(noDR stun duration). Since its 2xDPS bursting that should mean 12 seconds for a single class. If we take defensive CC and cooldowns into account; 100-0 should take 8-10 seconds minimum for any class.

All of the above implies;
- Burst and casual damage is closer to each other.
- Some defensives pruned

Also 8-10 seconds doesn't mean every class should be fixed to that time. Example: Affliction should have higher 100-0 time since the kill target is probably has less than %100hp.

ps. Main PvP concern should be removing Tanks and Double Healers from the Arenas.
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#4 ROKMODE

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 10:43 PM

you didn't even need these graphs/figures to explain this shit
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Expect bias in posts because
Wotlk is the best thing since sliced bread

#5 GrieverXIII

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 11:15 PM

CC length is just way too long for the amount of burst damage there is.

If devs want this game to be entirely based on CD usage they need to adjust them accordingly. For some comps "setup" is limited to throwing a focus Stormbolt to score a kill. Rather absurd.
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#6 Häxantutto

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 11:15 PM

nice graphs, but I completely agree!

every healer now has lay on hands, cant play arena without seeing people go from 10% to 100% hp with one global, Im just as surprised every time... usually sounds something like this: "WTF IS THIS HEALING WAAAAAAATTTTTTT"
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#7 GrieverXIII

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Posted 17 May 2015 - 11:21 PM

nice graphs, but I completely agree!

every healer now has lay on hands, cant play arena without seeing people go from 10% to 100% hp with one global, Im just as surprised every time... usually sounds something like this: "WTF IS THIS HEALING WAAAAAAATTTTTTT"


Can't play a game without going from 100-0 into a DR'd stun either.

Shaman Life.

Edited by GrieverZ, 17 May 2015 - 11:23 PM.

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#8 ProdeGaming

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 12:31 PM

you didn't even need these graphs/figures to explain this shit

I have suspicion for the opposite, so I highlighted a potentially important note that maybe some ppl miss.

Assuming healers' HPS within their class roles are close equal 1:1 ratio, they shouldn't be individually changed to achieve the above. Instead, all of them should get the same reduction, so they keep their equal HPS.

A reduction that reduces all their healing by the same amount is Battle Fatigue, which however is a ruled out change by the players. So since the required change is ruled out, what players are asking for, more constant and less spiky dmg, less CC cannot be achieved, essentially impossibility.


Since the wishes cannot be achieved, but a fix to this ratio is desired and also since CC is already often bordering eternity, the only possible change to fix the issue is to not bring HPS down but bring DPS up. It is what's happening 6.2, for it's the only feasible change left to overcome the excess of healing as long as an equal effect as Battle Fatigue is off the table.

Should it be? No.


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#9 Elorxo

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 02:04 PM

nice graphs, but I completely agree!

every healer now has lay on hands, cant play arena without seeing people go from 10% to 100% hp with one global, Im just as surprised every time... usually sounds something like this: "WTF IS THIS HEALING WAAAAAAATTTTTTT"


disc doesnt :(
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#10 Noxnoxnox

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Posted 18 May 2015 - 02:07 PM

i like it dude
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#11 anneeh

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 08:17 AM

This has been talked about before, but I think some kind of mortal strike effects could help too, let them stack(caster ms + melee ms). let utility classes(hybrids) not have ms effects because they bring offheal support, and the pure dps have a strong ms effect.

30-40-50% ms would change a lot in the healing department, and would warrant a different kind of peeling. And having a stacked ms with caster+melee could stop cleaves being the most powerful, which (imo) would make things more fun for sure.

This also wouldn't affect pve at all and would be a lot easier to work with for the devs in adjusting %.
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#12 Elorxo

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 11:38 AM

This has been talked about before, but I think some kind of mortal strike effects could help too, let them stack(caster ms + melee ms). let utility classes(hybrids) not have ms effects because they bring offheal support, and the pure dps have a strong ms effect.

30-40-50% ms would change a lot in the healing department, and would warrant a different kind of peeling. And having a stacked ms with caster+melee could stop cleaves being the most powerful, which (imo) would make things more fun for sure.

This also wouldn't affect pve at all and would be a lot easier to work with for the devs in adjusting %.


don't think the current meta is right for a 50% healing debuff

15k flash heal casts for 8 seconds? u are forgetting heals without NS in wotlk were actually higher than they are now. a penance would tick 50% of someones hp with no MS effect and probably only does 20-30% maximum now. there was also no dampening effect when 50% ms was around
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#13 ProdeGaming

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 03:48 PM

don't think the current meta is right for a 50% healing debuff

15k flash heal casts for 8 seconds? u are forgetting heals without NS in wotlk were actually higher than they are now. a penance would tick 50% of someones hp with no MS effect and probably only does 20-30% maximum now. there was also no dampening effect when 50% ms was around


I suspect your issue is coming from that it may sound like Battle Fatigue or an equal effect is a change that makes PvP suddenly amazing. But it's not, it's just a piece of a series of different changes, but it cannot be skipped.

Looking at your concern as barrier or obstacle for the change is a matter of, can a heal be overpowered that heals for a low % of HP? It's in the beginning of the thread that it's enough if it's op compared to dmg.
That's not to say a heal has to heal for 15% or 30% to be balanced, it's just no obstacle from this change/issue's PoV, doesn't rule out the necessity of the change.
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#14 anneeh

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Posted 19 May 2015 - 06:47 PM

don't think the current meta is right for a 50% healing debuff

15k flash heal casts for 8 seconds? u are forgetting heals without NS in wotlk were actually higher than they are now. a penance would tick 50% of someones hp with no MS effect and probably only does 20-30% maximum now. there was also no dampening effect when 50% ms was around


first of all, obviously dampening would be gone. secondly MS effects can be kited/cc'ed off, unlike dampening with a little bit of outplaying you'd be able to play around it more.

This is all very hypothetical, but in my ideal view of arenas, healing would be harder, burst perhaps not as strong as it is right now, and healer mana a thing.

You'll see people rot more right from the get-go, making games kick off a lot faster than these scripted scenario's in wod where defensives make ppl invulnerable, and you just rotate through them before killing someone.

Shit, you can predict how every game wil go right now, it's boring.

Edited by anneeh, 19 May 2015 - 06:48 PM.

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#15 Synexus

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 05:38 AM

All blizzard has to do is give damage focused classes (war/dk) more sustained damage, less burst, less mobility and remove their cc to 1. Give control classes (mage/rogue/hunter) more control and less burst and slightly more sustained.
Make ms 50%
Give casters the ability to do as much damage as war/dks if they are given the chance to free cast
Remove self healing from all non hybrids.
Hybrids should have to pick between weak instant heals or strong casted mana intensive heals.
Remove sprints from hunters/mages/rogues(bos)

You are required to peel melees, control casters, line of sight properly, pressure with solid positioning and micro decisions instead of blowing cds

Double melee can still work, they have tons of dmg and ms but no cc and are easily peeled.
Double caster can work too, they have damage and cc but the damage doesnt stick because of the lack of ms
The whole dynamic of pvp is completely fucked right now. The homogeneity between classes is rediculous

Edited by Synexus, 22 May 2015 - 08:49 PM.

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#16 Synexus

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 05:42 AM

delete this

Edited by Synexus, 20 May 2015 - 05:42 AM.

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#17 ProdeGaming

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 10:22 AM

Battle fatigue got so much hate because it is a lazy way to "fix" things. It treats healers as if they are all equal and furthers the homogenization even more. Sure it is easier for Blizzard to balance and easier for the player base to absorb, but it leads to discrepancies (usually shamans end up on top since their utility is so great, and their burst healing has always been strong).

I understand what you're saying, though. But I don't think battle fatigue is the *best* solution (it is a "solution"). I would rather have them provide nerfs to healing individually (on a class-by-class basis). And in a perfect world, I'd have them address mana (since mana really isn't an issue until late late dampening), and finally fine tune burst damage to match with the healing nerfs. Obviously these changes would have to be PvP specific (since the current state of healing is entirely due to PvE), and that may be a big road block in going forward since that is against Holinka's philosophy.

In a sense, Battle Fatigue or an equal effect is not -a- solution, it's -the only- way, looking at it as it cannot be skipped, is a required change, a tool to achieve something.

To make it maybe a bit more spectacular, could use a similar example to the current issue.

So the suggested issues are:
  • Too high burst
  • Too much CC
  • Healers die easily
  • However HPS being higher than DPS
Posted Image

Being unable to skip the use of Battle Fatigue or an equal effect is because healers' HPS is already balanced. So if you try to skip it and decrease each healers healing spells 1 by 1, in this case by monstrous percentages, there is gonna be a minimum % you've decreased every spell by. So since all their spells have been decreased by that %, it's the equal effect as Battle Fatigue, even tho the intent was to avoid it, essentially used it regardless.


Other issue could be that there are some spells that are already weak and need no reduction.
Posted Image

So basically Battle Fatigue or an equal effect could potentially be more efficient change to fix the majority of, in this case healing issue.
At the same time, the majority of the issue can get huge enough so that it's simply no longer feasible to be, cannot be replaced by a series of single spell changes.

It may as well look very lazy to change so many spells all at at the same time, but in case changing 800 spells 1 by 1 is not feasible, then not using an overall reduction is going to prevent doing anything at all. Because can't go 1 by 1 but can't reduce all either, so cannot do anything.
But if all spells do get reduced, then it's potentially going to be feasible to fix those that were already balanced, essentially be able to do more than if all spells didn't get reduced.


These could be issues because Battle Fatigue or an equal effect may very well sound like a universal fix that makes PvP suddenly amazing. But it isn't, it's just a piece of a series of different changes to achieve something, but it cannot be skipped.


Such series of different changes, following all healing reduction could be
Posted Image

Replied a bit more detailed than I originally imagined, but I updated the original post anyway.

Edited by ProdeGaming, 21 May 2015 - 12:00 PM.

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#18 Reliuna

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 04:53 PM

You lost me at "PvP concerns".
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#19 Elorxo

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 06:46 PM


I don't think anybody read this mate, sry
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#20 Dills

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 07:08 PM

Good shit, everything is on point
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the only hunter i approve of is dillypoo. the remainder of hunters' existence offends me to my core. when i wake up, i am troubled that in some parts of the world, there are other humans who still partake in slavery, sex trafficking, and hunter playing on world of warcraft


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did you ever get round to taking it? It's actually the best free site i've found :)

Gonna take that as you flopped hard and couldn't get near my score with repeated tries :)






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