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#1 Innate

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 11:51 PM

Quitting raiding in a few weeks, and was curious how people who spec 12/11/38 or 13/11/37 find the spec? I don't like the idea of losing some healing power, and tree form for sheep-happy mages, but the extra 6 yards on root/cyclone/moonfire sounds too good to pass up.

Also while i think subt > healing focus (and plan to change that when i respec), I see some druids skip OOC. For one point to me that seems worth it even if for nothing but purge bait. I've even gotten lucky sometimes getting a proc in cat or bear and getting a free regrowth.


So assuming no PvE or battleground interest, do you guys prefer 13/11/37 or the classic 8/11/42?
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#2 Laila

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 09:32 AM

seeing how I'm not a druid I can't really help with most specifics, but I will say I agree 100% that ooc is worth it just for a cover buff, I'd kill for something like that for pally as you well know
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#3 Haet

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 09:55 AM

I'd kill for something like that for pally as you well know


righteous fury?
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#4 Laila

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 10:01 AM

imp righteous fury is -6% dmg, it also costs about 800 mana, I don't want it dispelled lol, and it's a baseline skill anyway


anyway point is if there was a cover buff in the holy tree with no cooldown and a 10 minute duration for 120 mana, every paladin would have it no matter what even if it was "allows you to breath while not underwater"


10 minute rank 1 seal? yes please lol
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#5 Innate

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 10:28 AM

Been trying out this spec.. really like it so far. Yea ooc is worth the point to me now especially after i found out how sub-par natural perfection is with the current resilience mechanics, i had a few points freed up. The 36 yard range besides the obvious general use is great for ccing a rogue with roots/cyclone oor of deadly throw, and is great for getting wars in combat before a charge or rooting them way oor of intercept. Overall I think i like it better, especially picking up subt i noticed a huge change covering roots with FF and MF... palis just can't get the roots off without bof or some luck.
Still can't decide if i want insect swarm as a cover debuff, but honestly the 12 duration for 2% hit seems subpar to me unless you spec moonkin and use it for dps.
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#6 Molp

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 08:34 PM

I think it really depends on the play style. Some druids are very cyclone/roots happy, some are not (in 2v2). The problem with chain cycloning in 2v2 is that you put it on DR for when you really need it.

So in 2v2 I would say 42/8/11 is superior. Being outside of CS range is not that big of a deal in that bracket. In 5v5 where cyclone spam is a druid's mainstay on many teams, the extra yards can really help.
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#7 Swahili

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 05:27 PM

Molp, I think you meant 8/11/42.

I have a lot of experience playing with both specs. I've been 13/11/37 for some time now and I will never go back to 8/11/42 unless some changes are made to the resto tree.

Natures Reach is AMAZING (20% more range). I've come to rely on this talent. In many matches I don't even open with a pounce. I just pop out of stealth 35 yards away from the action where I can heal and CC out of range of any counterspell, intercept, fear with ease.

Because I run with a SL/SL lock, the insect swarm is awesome for a cover buff. Lock gets his Dots up and I use rank 1, FF, MF, IS and we rarely see his DoT's dispelled.

The best thing about the 13/11/37 is that you sacrifice such a SMALL amount of healing. Compare my talents to someone with 50+ pts in resto and you will notice a VERY small amount of PVP realted talents that I sacrifice.

If your resillence is high enough, you can drop Natural Perfection. OOC is not necessary. Still get 5/5 subtley (a MUST have). The only difference you will see is the fact that I have 2/5 empowered rejuvination opposed to 5/5. I've ran tests comparing the difference of 2/5 vs 5/5 and it is very minimal.

I'm still shocked that all the top druids are still 8/11/42. Either they haven't figured it out yet or I am missing something.
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#8 Molp

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 07:26 PM

I always put the deepest tree first. Bad habbit of mine.

Bouncing around between 1900 and 2100 I am not qualified to speak for the true top druids, but from watching videos and talking to them it seems that the 42 resto druids don't rely on cyclone too much. To paraphrase Hafu, "if you use cyclone too much it is probably on DR when you really need it". Instead they use feral charge to get away and feral charge combined with cyclone to CC.

When a warrior is on your tail and you have distance, the extra yards of cyclone range allow you to get it off without being intercepted, even with some lag. Alternatively you can just stay in bear and charger their partner when the warrior intercepts you. That has the added benefit that the partner (most likely a healer) is put on more pressure, reducing his healing. It does cut down the time it takes for my warrior partner to kill a pally - by a lot actually, since druids can stun quite frequently.

Also I found that most top teams don't actually go for the druid - they go for the warrior. In a battle of healing attrition, empowered healing helps a lot.

If there were not the dead talents you have to get to get the extra range, I am sure everyone would get it though. Or if they moved sublety up one tier. But currently, I'd rather have the extra healing.
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#9 Swahili

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 08:35 PM

By extra healing you mean rejuv's ticking for 700 instead of 680? Or lifebloom blooming for 1330 instead of 1300, for example?

Aside from the 1 point in Improved regrowth (which I may move 1 point out of Natures Focus and place here) the ONLY difference in my spec compared to 8/11/42 in regards to healing is 2/5 Emp Rejuv compared to 5/5 Emp Rejuv.

My whole argument is that those 3 points (12% of bonus healing effect on HoTs) is by NO means game breaking in any way. Natures Reach, however, can be game breaking in so many ways. Insect Swarm is an added bonus. I'm not here to argue that I gave up 3 pts in Emp rejuv for OMG LEET SWARM DPS. Swarm can be nice for a cover buff on top of my warlocks dots, and it does about 1k dmg for 175 mana, but I usually use rank 1.

Aside from the obvious cyclone and roots, Nature's reach helps with other minor things like MF rank 1 from a further distance while trying to keep someone in combat. Little things like that people don't think about. Trying to chase a druid to MF rank 1 him before he gets behind a pillar to drink and your spamming the button to only see Out of Range.

Also, I never once said anything about spamming cylcone the whole fight, in fact I'm probably more conservative with my cyclones than most druids. It does not mean that I don't benefit from Nature's Reach. Please don't missinterper my words and say that my spec means that I abuse cyclone or don't use it correctly.

Anyway, I feel I have some valid points here, and as more high end druids re-evaluate thier specs - you will see more and more going to a similar spec as my own. Especially with the recent discovery of Natural Perfection not stacking beyond the 25% resillence cap.
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#10 Molp

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 12:45 AM

Also, I never once said anything about spamming cylcone the whole fight, in fact I'm probably more conservative with my cyclones than most druids. It does not mean that I don't benefit from Nature's Reach. Please don't missinterper my words and say that my spec means that I abuse cyclone or don't use it correctly.

Anyway, I feel I have some valid points here, and as more high end druids re-evaluate thier specs - you will see more and more going to a similar spec as my own. Especially with the recent discovery of Natural Perfection not stacking beyond the 25% resillence cap.


I never meant to imply that you were playing incorrectly. And "abusing" cyclone is a silly notion to begin with - the spell has no cooldown for a reason. All I am saying is that the one thing that stood out when watching high-ranked druid videos was how little many of them use cyclone and roots. And when they do it is typically after a feral charge to extend the CC. Now, whether or not that is the best strategy is up for debate (but people have been very successful with it), but as long as people play that way I doubt too many will pick up the extra range on a spell they rarely use.

If all I did was 5v5 I would probably pick up the extra range though. I cyclone a lot more in that bracket.
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#11 nord

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 07:50 AM

8/11/42 is by far the most popular but it's not necessarily the best. Depends on your playstyle.

Personally I use 23/0/38 ( http://eu.wowarmory....oodscalp&n=Nord ) which give add more focus to spells root, cyclone, more HPS and even a little extra damage through +damage on thorns, root, insect swarm, moonfire

I've tried many variations but this the one I'm having greatest comfortability and synergy with my teammate.
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#12 adra

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 12:00 PM

Especially with the recent discovery of Natural Perfection not stacking beyond the 25% resillence cap.



I hadn't heard about this, Could you link me to the thread by anychance?


Edit: I'd just like to add some counter points.

First I run with a rogue and occasionally warrior so my experience in 2's is slightly different than you running with a lock.

Here are a few things to consider though -

In most fights i stand 40+ yards from my partner (which means even farther from the enemy) meaning the extra range from Nature's reach wouldn't provide much benefit. When I do cyclone/roots it is usually because a melee managed to reach me - so again the range would provide no utlitly.

As for the 3 extra points in empowered rejuvination not being gamebreaking. Do remember that the best way to heal is an indefinite 3 stack lifebloom which means the bonus healing is stacked 3 times. This is a significant amount of healing over a 10 minute fight (that is probably the average length of even matches, which are the matches I most need an edge in - and it isnt uncommon for some fights to go even longer).

As for OOC being a cover buff, I used it as that for a while but found it fairly insignificant in the long run. If you want to take a point out of Nature's focus for it you're not really gaining or losing much.

All in all I agree the spec you've presented is a legitimate one depending on your playstyle. I don't however think it is neccisarily "better" than the cookie cutter 8/11/42 spec that most top druids use.

Against the machups I find the hardest it would give me almost no benefit and I see no need to spend talent points to help me win fights I'm going to win anyway.
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#13 Swahili

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 04:55 PM

IMO - triple stacking lifebloom in arena is not mana efficient. I'm actually gonna make another thread to get feedback on this...I'm curious to see how many druids actually do this.
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#14 yoyoyoyo

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Posted 29 August 2007 - 07:24 PM

hey, I didn't know that stuff about natural perfection, can someone correct me if I have the right idea with this :

with enough resilience for 12.5%/25% crit reduction, natural perfection would do NOTHING

at 10%/20%, it would bring you to 10%/25%, with 5% wasted to cap

and at 7.5%/15%, it would bring you to 7.5%/25% and not be wasted

correct?
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#15 Innate

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Posted 29 August 2007 - 08:15 PM

hey, I didn't know that stuff about natural perfection, can someone correct me if I have the right idea with this :

with enough resilience for 12.5%/25% crit reduction, natural perfection would do NOTHING

at 10%/20%, it would bring you to 10%/25%, with 5% wasted to cap

and at 7.5%/15%, it would bring you to 7.5%/25% and not be wasted

correct?


Correct.
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#16 nord

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Posted 29 August 2007 - 08:49 PM

IMO - triple stacking lifebloom in arena is not mana efficient. I'm actually gonna make another thread to get feedback on this...I'm curious to see how many druids actually do this.


You frighten me :shock:

I don't know which one who is more impressive. Failure to realize how good stacked lifeblooms is or that you became Gladiator without doing it. :)
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#17 Swahili

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Posted 30 August 2007 - 07:20 PM

It scares me that druids think that lifebloom stacking is necessary to succeed.

I can argue just the opposite. I'm refering to primarily 2v2 with my warlock partner, where most of our battles come down to me outlasting the opponents mana pool. We are and endurance team, and mana efficienency is the key to our success.

In a typical 2v2 match, you will NOT keep a lifebloom x3 on your target throughout the fight. If you are doing your job properly as a resto druid, the fight consist of WAY more than just healing. If anything, I'd say I'm kiting, CC'ing, shapeshifting as much as I am healing. It's not unusual for me to be out of LoS of my partner as much as I am in LoS.

The beauty of a druid (and the key to their success in 2v2) is the fact that we can heal on the run, and still be healing our oppenents over time while we are on the move, and LoS'ing the other team.

I realize that triple stacking a bloom can be mana efficient IF you can keep it stacked for more than a few cycles, the longer you maintain the more efficient it can be. IMO this is more for PVE than PVP. With the amount of "other activities" going on in a 2v2 match, maintaining that stack just is not possible.
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#18 Molp

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Posted 30 August 2007 - 08:19 PM

You play with a warlock who has increased resists, soul link and a nice healing buff. In that case a triple stack of LB is most likely overkill. But for those of us who play with a different class, triple LB is pretty much mandatory against double DPS teams, and even against some single DPS teams.
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#19 Kalaren

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Posted 25 September 2007 - 06:09 PM

I used 29/0/32 http://www.wowhead.c...rcsMZZxVcLcq0Lk for a while and found it was excellent for 3v3 and 5v5 (my 3v3 went from 2000 to 2080 during the week I tried this spec)

However not having feral charge really sucked in 2v2, so I had to go back... I prefere 13/11/37 than 8/11/42... to me having more range is more important than being able to hit tree when being sheep chained.
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#20 Pirated

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Posted 30 September 2007 - 01:58 AM

I haven't seen many druids with my exact spec, mainly because no one wants to not max nature's focus. Still, I've barely noticed skipping it, since I really don't cast regrowth often, and almost never when anyone is hitting me.

Subtlety is amazing, and I might switch to nature's reach/insect swarm when 1/3 of +healing adds to +damage.

As for triple stacking lifebloom, I doubt you'll often do it while playing with a SL/SL warlock, but when you're trying to keep someone up through burst it's very nice to have up.
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