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Unholy & NP in 6.1

Unholy NP Necrotic Plague Uh 6.1 DK Death Knight

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#1 Jimbay

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 07:46 AM

So I thought with 6.1 (hopefully) looming it would be worth starting some discussion on the viability of unholy and in particular the "Necroblight" playstyle post buffs.

For those that don't know. At present on the PTR Necrotic plague is receiving a 37% buff; and for those that played beta that will return the 100 talent to a position on par with / stronger than it was on beta.

Having not tested on the PTR due to not being able to character copy yet (but I will do so in due course) I have taken the following initiative from Skullflower's blog on #archerus (pve dk forum - where testing and simcrafting has occurred).

In ashram (tested due to the large sample size that can be collected) I used unholy blight to obtain 15 stacks and reset the damage meter. I did this multiple times until I noticed the majority of enemies infected also had 15 stacks and recorded a frame for 10 seconds. Thus test included rune of the fallen crusader but not trinkets.

Without boring you with the whole lowdown, the average tick of NP was 9.8k in relatively poor gear generally optimised for frost... Doh! This number averaged in pvp reduced crits and multistrike.

So plenty of room for growth but for now we will use this Base figure. Including the 37% buff but rounding up to circumvent the lack of gear and gear optimisation:

9.8k * 1.37 = 13,426.

13,426 ~> 15k

So some very fluffy assumptions (don't blame me I'm a property investor and we make everything up).

15k per 2 seconds is, if managed PERFECTLY, 7.5k dps per target in pvp. Meaning in 3v3 with 2 targets of uptime we can achieve more pressure than your average class (note I didn't say burst).

Just in comparison afflic lock currently ticks for:

Agony: 5.9k
UA: 5.8k
Corruption: 4.9k

Total - 16.6k / 3 = 5,533 dps...

So we know the POTENTIAL is there but what about practicality?

How much is dispels going to kill us? Or can we affectively use an off target still infected to re-infect the other targets?

In the current pve sim's the unholy blight version pulls ahead significantly in AOE but plaguebearer is slightly clinching it in ST. In pvp will we be able to positionally utilise unholy blight or will poor uptime make plaguebearer pull ahead? We can stack quite rapidly with coils plague strike and ice touch (which is great prior to burst as we want to purge pre-bursting anyway).

Thoughts / any PTR experience welcome!



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#2 Forumz

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 11:32 AM

You're going by always having 15 stacks up, which is not the case.
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#3 Itsnel

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 12:11 PM

as long as it jumps on cc'd targets it's shit
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#4 Arancor

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 12:42 PM

I would really love to see Unholy AoE pressure playstyle being viable again. I played DK in the past because DK was basically the melee version of my beloved Warlock. Now I have to play like a stupid Warrior :mad:

If you play something like Druid ShadowCleave NP breaking CC is not really that much of an issue as Cyclone goes through anyway and fear is not used so much because it breaks so easily now and DRs with Cyclone. All other CCs of that comp don't break on damage.

If you play TSG its not really a matter also. DK/Hunter/Healer is probably the combo that is most vulnerable to NP breaking CC.

I think with the survivability of Resto Druid/Lock/DK and damage ticking for like 10k dps on all three targets it could be a nice combo.

However, as others have pointed out, you don't have 15 stacks up all the time and having 15 stacks on three or even two targets simultaneously seems very hard.

As for the talents. UB gives 10 stacks I think (one per tick) over its duration ever 1.5min, PB gives one stack per Death Coil, which is roughly once every 5 sec in most cases. If you talk about raw damage over time UB pulls ahead if you can get at least 18 stacks off when you pop it. On top of that UB allows to get full stacks quickly for high pressure. For single target PB is quite a bit better though. Overall I would probably go with UB.
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#5 Arancor

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 01:08 PM

And just FYI, Warlock DoTs tick every 2 seconds, just like NP, so Warlock DPS is actually 8.3K. I don't know where you have got your numbers, but here is what I know from the recent simulations.

Warlock with SB:Haunt up (no Haunt)
Agony: 5.500 per 2 seconds = 2.750 dps
Corruption: 4.003 per 2 seconds = 2.001 dps
UA: 5.083 per 2 seconds = 2.541 dps
Total: 7.292 dps (single target)

DK with normal diseases
BP: 4.300 per 3 seconds = 1.433 dps
FF: 2.700 per 3 seconds = 900 dps
Total: 2.333 dps (single target)

DK with NP (current)
NP (15 stack): 6.045 per 2 seconds = 3.022 dps
Total: 3.022 dps (single target)

DK with new NP
NP (15 stack): 8.282 per 2 seconds = 4.141 dps
Total: 4.141 dps (single target)

To sum it up: I think even with the new NP DKs will be still far behind Warlocks in terms of multi-target pressure. Also keep in mind that those numbers are with 15 stacks up. On average you will have maybe like 8-10 stacks up, so more like 3.000 dps per target with the new NP.

Overall I think even with new NP Unholy will possibly be able to do about half the pressure a Warlock can put out with DoTs. However if you add the fact that Warlocks have low damage outside of their DoTs DKs can make up by additional pressure on the kill target.

But in the end it will always come down to the questions if Unholy will be stronger than Frost in certain points with 6.1, which currently I doubt unfortunately.
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#6 Jimbay

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 03:57 PM

My assumptions for NP are as stated. In pvp at 15 stacks with rune proc and about 64% mastery (646 iLevel). My bad as far back as I remember lock dots ticked every 3 seconds and this, as I mentioned was very rough comparison based on arena averages.

I have not had much problem maintaining stacks but this does put fester as a priority in pvp considering a lack of up time. It also requires the dk to switch to maintain stacks by moving to the nearest target. Which we do anyway.

Perhaps I am just ever hopeful but I honestly see this as viable.

Any from of unholy would be pointless with a breakable cc combo either way. Np just accentuates that. We have to play tsg shadowcleave vanguards or zombie chicken.

So the consensus is one of pessimism, understandably driven by past let down. Seems getting my hopes up was a wasted effort.
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#7 Arancor

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 08:25 AM

I really wish this will be viable. As for stats: If Necrotic Plague is you main focus, then the main stat you want to focus on is Haste, not Mastery. The reason is simple: NP double-dips from haste, because haste not only makes it tick faster but also makes it stack faster to the maximum amount and gives it a larger share of its duration with full damage.

Also increases the number of Death Coils you can spam which gives additional stacks.

One spec I can think of would be to stack haste to really high amounts and then using Icy Touch (purge) and Death Coil (with Plaguebearer) as your main rotation, spreading NP everywhere. With high haste you have almost the dispel pressure of an Enhancement Shaman. On top of that IT and DC both give stacks of NP. Lots of DCs also mean almost 100% uptime of Dark Transformation and the 4pc pvp bonus (20% shadow damage).

Don't know if this works though, but pressure should be quite okay with those dispels, permanently transformed pet as an additional DoT, high stacks of NP everywhere and the occasional Gargoyle. It's also almost a ranged spec.

Aside from that NP got nerfed in today's patch build (scaling down to 3.2% AP from 3.7% AP, so that 37% buff is now only a 19% buff).
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#8 Ownu

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 08:57 AM

My base largest crits on players with NP are around 13k, which would jump up to 17.8k with a 37% buff. (17.2k with today's nerf)




Also, Dk dots are not affected by haste

Edited by Ownu, 04 February 2015 - 09:05 AM.

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#9 Kodine

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 09:00 AM

it got nerfed today on ptr

Necrotic Plague: Damage over time per stack decreased from 3.7% of AP to 3.2% of AP.
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#10 Arancor

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 12:44 PM

Also, Dk dots are not affected by haste


Really? That would be a total design flaw and would basically make Warlock-like pressure completely unreachable for DKs. Especially considering that haste is one of Unholy's biggest stats with the innate 25% bonus.
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#11 Lunatic002

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 01:06 PM

I really wish this will be viable. As for stats: If Necrotic Plague is you main focus, then the main stat you want to focus on is Haste, not Mastery. The reason is simple: NP double-dips from haste, because haste not only makes it tick faster but also makes it stack faster to the maximum amount and gives it a larger share of its duration with full damage.

Also increases the number of Death Coils you can spam which gives additional stacks.

One spec I can think of would be to stack haste to really high amounts and then using Icy Touch (purge) and Death Coil (with Plaguebearer) as your main rotation, spreading NP everywhere. With high haste you have almost the dispel pressure of an Enhancement Shaman. On top of that IT and DC both give stacks of NP. Lots of DCs also mean almost 100% uptime of Dark Transformation and the 4pc pvp bonus (20% shadow damage).

Don't know if this works though, but pressure should be quite okay with those dispels, permanently transformed pet as an additional DoT, high stacks of NP everywhere and the occasional Gargoyle. It's also almost a ranged spec.

Aside from that NP got nerfed in today's patch build (scaling down to 3.2% AP from 3.7% AP, so that 37% buff is now only a 19% buff).


as far as i know diseases are unaffected by haste


EDIT: nvm, already got posted :D
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#12 Forumz

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 10:47 PM

It would be so good if our diseases were affected by haste... Imagine the tears...
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#13 Relentless

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 11:43 PM

My base largest crits on players with NP are around 13k, which would jump up to 17.8k with a 37% buff. (17.2k with today's nerf)




Also, Dk dots are not affected by haste


Wouldn't it be 15.5k? The buff is now only going to be 19% (Did 19% of 13k added to 13k = 15.5k roughly)
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#14 Arancor

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 08:52 AM

It would be so good if our diseases were affected by haste... Imagine the tears...


Yep, tested it out myself today. Someone has to report that as a bug ASAP :mad:

I really have the impression that DKs, regardless of spec, just scale EXTREMELY BADLY compared to other classes in general. Really flawed design. For Frost you have basically the same thing. They were very strong at the start of the season but now that everyone is fully geared it becomes obvious how bad their scaling is, for Frost you have:

- Mastery: does only affect Frost Strike which plays a very minor role in PvP, because Frost DK is all about Obliterate burst
- Crit/Multistrike: both reduced to half effect in PvP
- Haste: does not increase burst at all, you just can burst every 18 seconds instead of every 20 seconds or something like that.
- Versatility: has lower offensive budget than other stats in general because of the additional defensive effect, also have to give up set bonuses to stack that:


For Unholy its almost the same, except for Mastery, which is the only stat DKs really scale with. Multistrike is a little bit less worse in PvP due to Necrosis, but that's about it.

Compare that to Arms Warrior Mastery, which increases the damage of basically every PvP-relevant ability they have and you can easily see why Warriors start to outperform DKs the more we get into the season.
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#15 Ownu

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 03:56 PM

Really? That would be a total design flaw and would basically make Warlock-like pressure completely unreachable for DKs. Especially considering that haste is one of Unholy's biggest stats with the innate 25% bonus.


multistrike is unholy's 25% bonus
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#16 Forumz

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 05:13 PM

multistrike is unholy's 25% bonus

5%.

25% is only for Frost DK Haste. All other classes only get 5% for their stat as well.
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#17 Jimbay

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 07:16 PM

With 19% buff NP with reasonable uptime still beats regular diseases through and since breath just falls off with uh due to lack of rp generation it's still best even if frost remains optimum. Need someone in optimised unholy gear to test since unholy is ahead in dps and uptime (frost ofc burstier).
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#18 Ownu

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 11:31 PM

Oh right, 5%. I was tired
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