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Feedback and general PvP issues


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#1 ysnakewoo

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 08:10 AM

Greetings there, this is going to be a wall of text that I just have to get out of my system somehow, even though the hopes of WoD being a PvP-friendly expansion are nearly gone, I lay my hope that someone somewhere might read this and think it through. Of course, everything can be discussed (and possibly flamed, considering the nature of AJ forums), but I tried to remain as objective as I can.

Before we venture into the realm of fails WoD has brought upon us, let us take a brief look at some of the amazing features WoD has given us:
- Skirmishes while leveling and on level 100. This was the most sought-out feature since its removal. It is fun to go to Skirmishes, get gear from them and practice a bit at the same time.
- Item level raised in Random BGs. Again, making gearing more fun and engaging, not making it a boring get-1shot-grindfest is a huge step up for Blizzard and this is the first time I've actually had some fun while gearing my characters.
- Less instant CC over the board. This will be discussed in detail later, but general "less instants" pruning has given PvP a nice healthy pool.
- Less arena-specific, but music in this expansion is great.



With that positive opener, let us now talk about the bad things that this expansion gave us, mainly PvP-wise.

- Ability pruning. We have all been hyped for this, because let's face it, there were too many buttons at some point and every class had almost everything, making them less and less unique. However, there is a limit until which ability pruning is fine, Blizzard have clearly crossed it. The "feature" that they have added became one of the worst enemies for this game. This lead classes to being too one-dimensional, poorly designed or designed with flaws and generally dull and boring.
Let's take Warlocks for example. Once one of the most fun classes to play in arena with a multitude of options available has been pruned to nothingness. The removal of one spell, Fel Flame, really hurt the class. It seems that Blizzard forgot that Warlocks can get interrupted and gave them only one school. They have been pruned to being damage-bots with amazing survivability (one of the few niches they actually kept in the game), no one finds looking at Drain Soul channel fun.

- Archaic mechanics. This isn't a thing you hear about every day, but Blizzard have put so many spells into "passives" that I cannot help myself but to feel that passives are what my class really is. Archaic mechanics that the game had to offer, even if at times they seemed obsolete or irrelevant, gave classes their currently-needed-depth. The old "stance dancing" could be described as tedious at certain points, but it still gave players the feeling that they are using their class to its fullest potential.One of the most plain examples can be used with Priests:
Priests had Inner Fire and Inner Will, and they could swap between the two at the cost of a global. We are all well aware what the bonuses of each of those were, and that's what gave the class depth at a basic level. If the Priest is facing a caster cleave, he would spend almost an entire game in Inner Will, while if the Priest is facing a melee cleave, he would opt to go Inner Fire if he gets trained. Pretty simple stuff, however, if a Priest knew he needs to heal someone up and he has a global to spare (let's say he's running around the pillar after being feared), he would quickly switch to Inner Fire > possibly Inner Focus > spam heal after shielding and then switch back to Inner Will when he feels comfortable. This little, almost irrelevant, mechanic gave players the feeling that they are using their class to its fullest. This was taken away from the players and put as a passive spell, it was not redundant.



- Dabbling into specifics of arena right now:

- Self healing. This was blatantly broken in Mists of Pandaria, but due to healers being unable to control their characters (an overstatement, but not far from the truth), this was seen as an okay way to supplement the sheer amount of CC available to almost all classes. However, this self-healing disease has spread into WoD and we have all seen its atrocities. The amount of self-healing certain classes have is downright stupid. Most blatant examples of this are Feral Druids, Frost DKs, Destruction Warlocks and Boomkins. Self-healing has got to go, five steps down from its current state. No one minds a class having some self heals to help them last longer in combat, however, having a pocket healer tied to one of your abilities should not be in the game. PvE reasons are not the answer since none of these classes actually uses their heals as much as they do in PvP.

- Dampening. This mechanic was Blizzard's way of saying "look, we have no idea how to balance this, here's a random idea we came up with, have fun". The sheer stubbornness Blizzard has shown everyone with that feature was just mind-blowing. It was an insult to the entire PvP community along with them acknowledging themselves as incapable of doing something about healing in the arena. While the entire community was flaring with proposals left and right, they have picked yet another passive ability that controls your gameplay. Instead of introducing mana management and reducing the amount of self heals, they have done quite the opposite.

- Weird gear-obtaining system. This particular topic was covered in many posts, especially in that nicely written reddit post, however, I still feel the urge to mention that this RNG system is an atrocity to everyone. It is unrewarding to some and extremely rewarding to either the lucky (well, that's fine) or to their respective classes (Colliseum, Alliance vs Horde ratio in Ashran) and many other factors. Such huge factors should not play a role in your character's progression. PvP gear progression was always relatively stable and simple, but all of this mumbo-jumbo that is currently going on SHOULD NOT see the light of day in any other season besides this one. We do not need 30 ways to obtain our PvP gear, we are fine with one, that is Conquest points, and to add some flavor, keep the Ashran one, since that's your vision of a "world boss drop" that was common in previous expansions.

- Ashran. This is an absolute abomination of a zone. You cannot force a half-MOBA half-Guild Wars2-esque zone down our throats. The zone is an absolute disaster, and it boils down to PvE at the end regardless of it. Blizzard stated "Ashran is not ABSOLUTELY needed", I believe Blizzard does not know what "not" means. Currently, Ashran is ABSOLUTELY needed, 800 points per month, plus 4 chances to get a random PvP epic over the course of 4 weeks. That seems pretty "absolute and necessary" if you ask me. With Ashran in mind, we can talk about another issue that has seen the light of day.

- Faction imbalance. Everyone was crying about faction imbalance in Ashran, and it was everpresent in WoW since Cataclysm. However, for whatever reason, everyone always leaned toward Alliance (particularly because it is easier to find arena partners and because of the Human racial), now Horde is left with a couple of good servers, and the rest has been conquered by this mighty Alliance. Not sure if they should be still called "Horde", I believe "Pack" would be an appropriate name. One would jump to a conclusion and state that this is primarily player's preference. Personally, I haven't met a player who didn't say "yeah, Undeads are one of the coolest-looking motherfuckers around". But, McBlizzard decided that it is time to put a ridiculous price for an automatic service. My entire guild and partners would migrate this very instant if the price wasn't so goddamn high. Also, why is there a price? If a server has clear faction imbalance, can you not give them free faction change/server change? Not only for super-high populated servers, but for the low-population servers as well.

- Cheaters. WoD has seen the rise of the scum like no other expansion before has. These trapbots and kickbots are on the loose in arena in a multi-billion dollar game and Blizzard is nowhere near solving this issue. They have sued Honorbuddy makers and the case is on the court, however, from the looks of it, it seems that Honorbuddy lawyers are getting the better of Blizzard. I haven't checked the case in a while (you can view it on Honorbuddy website), but the last I checked, it wasn't going very good for Blizzard. These players NEED to be removed and banned from the game.

- General feedback from players. Now, we have all paid a visit to the official WoW forums and saw the horrible suggestions players were making. However, every now and then, there is some bright diamond in there that well-written, well-detailed feedback about something, those diamonds usually get lost in the ocean of horrible cry-posts on generally unmoderated forums. Now, Blizzard has done a nice marketing trick, leaving the game to "soak" a bit over the holidays, using them as an excuse to make a proper overview of the situation. But then, one would expect a multi-billion dollar company to know their market and their customers, which is obviously not the case. Even the PvE community is outraged with the class overhaul and poor class design, which leaves us with nothing else but to point fingers at the designers.

In case you haven't been paying attention to the offical WoW forums, prior to WoD release, there was an OUTCRY of PvP and PvE players, ranging from the casualest of casuals to the most hardcore motherfuckers around. All done in proper feedback posts, all written with all the details and general consensus was made amongst the players about certain cases. However, that wasn't the case for Blizzard as they were convinced they were doing something amazing while completely ignoring the feedback players were giving them.

It seems that Blizzard themselves are not happy with how low appreciation they are getting from their beloved customers, as can be seen with the latest Holinka posts, with cynical comments and jabs. They are unpleased, but they were warned about this and the community's call once again fell on deaf ears.

The communication between the "high command" and us is completely lackluster. None of us have any idea where the game is going to go, how it will pan out, what are the plans for anything related to the game, it seems that this regime is going to continue onwards.
We, as a community, are in need of communication from the Blizzard devs, however, that's a topic for another discussion.

- Counterplay mechanics. This is going to be the last one. The game has systematically removed most, if not all, counterplayer mechanics from the game. The "outplay" is not there anymore. In other games, I love to get my ass handed to me by a better player. It sucks to lose, but you do not feel horrible after losing to a superior player, you feel horrible when outplays are not possible. The game currently offers very few of those, the game needs to differentiate the good and the bad. Every game was like that and every game IS like that. For the love of Azeroth, please bring back depth into this game. It is shallow, dull and boring from the moment you learn your PvE rotation.

Thanks for the lengthy read, here is the TL;DR for those that did not have the time/couldn't be arsed:
- Ability pruning destroyed the depth classes initially had to offer and classes feel boring and shallow.
- Self-healing and Dampening need to be reworked.
- RNG dictating your PvP gear progression should not be in the game.
- Blizzard not listening to the feedback from their players and WoD leaves a lot to be desired. You cannot please everyone, but you gotta please someone except casuals.

I could not go in detail about every possible problem the game is currently facing, merely scratched the surface. I do not want to propose changes as they are pretty darn obvious, I am starting to think this entire post is just me venting in some way. Apologies in advance if it sounds like that. Merely trying to get the wheels going and if the thread is not up to standards, feel free to remove it Basedstick.
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#2 Nogahn

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 08:15 AM

saved for LATER :)


- Weird gear-obtaining system.

To be honest this randomized drops are rly anoying for everyone.
On the one hand there are people who are almost fully geared and on the other hand there are people who got 2,3-2,4 + lr since the first week and are still behind due to random drops.
At this point I'd rather have rbgs with an increased cap (compared to arenas) then RNG-EPIC-OPRAHSTYLE :D
I know rbgs aren't that entertaining for most of us BUT at least you could say THEY DID SOMETHING to be geared and you could have done the same eventho most of us won't.(Blizzard wants to keep rbgs alive (for a good reason) so they implemented rng drops which are even worse tbh)


- Faction imbalance.

From my point of view this whole racial thingy should be removed by now (or at leats every faction should have the same racials spread on their racial equivalent).
I personally only play human due to the racial (i guess most of us do).
If i had no disadvantage for playing another race I'd insta chnage to nelf since I tmorph it anyways.
(tmorphing came to a point where I'm not even motivated to play once a new patch hit the servers)


- General feedback from players
I have to agree with you the decent ideas and posts are getting drowned by casual tears (no offense) and rage posts most of the time.
Please instead of crying about class X or ability Y take a deep breath and take your time to find a solution which could work out [any idea is welcome as long as it's not biased or totally over the top (don't try to destroy another class instead try to fix it)]

Another idea which came to my mind is that our community needs somekind of ELITE CIRCLE who communicates
with blizzard and everyone should be able to read it.(secret forums don't help the community at all)
Just open those forums for everyone and let them read it (not post in it ofc).
And a lot of players would actually understand why class X is so hard to balance, why class Y has to be buffed or why class Z has to be nerfed in a certain why.
The forums don't even have to include names or any kind of informations about a player they could simply color the posts. (blue for blizzard / purple for community)
This way blizzard could actually see what bothers us as a community without having to check the daily aidsfest which blizzard forums have become and blizzard would be forced to give us answers to certain topics since they are getting adressed officially and so they can't dodge a bullet behind their fancy secret-forum-wall.
Those memberships would be based on general experience and the motivation to actually make the game more enjoyable for everyone (3-4 weeks trial etc. blabla to see who actually means it)


- Counterplay mechanics


I couldn't agree more.
Almost everything which required skill is gone at this point.

From a hunter's point of view it's a sad time since there isn't much to shine if your class is that simple.
In the past you actually knew if you have faced a decent hunter due to a lot of facts.
For example when we still got readyness our skillcap was much higher since it could be used as a HIGH RISK/HIGH REWARD ABILITY (sacrifice a second deterence for a dr trap or for that little bit of extra burst which could end the game) there's more where that came from for every class but I think you get the gist.
For example atm i'm playing PHP with a priest (PHP lol did he really say it) and once we face a resto-druid PHP there isn't much we can do.
Even if our priest swds(holyfires w/e) 3 out of 4 traps and we are able to sac a hoj once in a while and make our opponents look like they don't even know how to play the game dps/cc/mechainc wise we are close to losing due to the fact that it doesn't matter anymore how good you are if your opponets play fotm on a decent level.
Yesterday we were clsoe to losing a game vs a 2.4 druid-PHP eventho we almost doubled them in DPS, were 2-3 cc chains ahead due to trapeating/swd and if the game would have lasted a minute longer we would have lost no matter what. (I'm not justyfing the current state of my class i wanted to show you what our game has become)

(warning! my english isn't the best but i guess it's mkay)

Edited by Nogahn, 05 January 2015 - 09:50 AM.

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#3 panooc

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 08:52 AM

this is actually a nice post.
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#4 Nogahn

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 10:16 AM

this is actually a nice post.


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#5 Yubel

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 10:22 AM

"- Counterplay mechanics."

I agree completely.
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#6 Nogahn

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 10:34 AM

could someone find a solution to stop those stupid spamming bots(i sell X threads)???

mods pls it's starting to become super anoying and they are spamming every thread into the deeps of AJ where it'll never be found again

RIP AJ
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#7 Zenety

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 10:55 AM

- Counterplay mechanics


You knew when someone actually outskilled you in previous expansions (Wotlk mostly). As you said, I didn't feel bad losing against a player that outplayed me. Nowadays some random frost dk's come running in, slamming his head against his keyboard and roflstomping all over me.

Love this post, but I doubt Blizzard will read any feedback. They never listened to feedback the last fucking 10 years.
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#8 Nogahn

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 11:04 AM

You knew when someone actually outskilled you in previous expansions (Wotlk mostly). As you said, I didn't feel bad losing against a player that outplayed me. Nowadays some random frost dk's come running in, slamming his head against his keyboard and roflstomping all over me.


ye sometimes everyone loses a game and is like okay.... wp blizzard
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#9 Mage

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 01:07 PM

Damn look at this nigga here trying to make a good thread on AJ.

I 100% agree about pretty much this entire post, except for dampening.

On the AT server for WotLK (which WoD is mostly comparable to) they have a version of dampening that works very well. If I recall correctly it not only reduces healing but also increases damage. So instead of 30% reduced healing it would be 15% reduced healing, and 15% increased damage or something along those lines. I think that would work better than what we have now.
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#10 Feliclandelo

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 01:48 PM

I couldn't agree more, but perhaps we need to try and be a bit more specific as well. The only issue is that as soon as you voice your opinion, or ask for a class to be changed, the same 5-10 people, biased beyond oblivion, will also come in to defend their class (normally with the argument of "if X class is broken, I need Y to be broken too, in order to play the game".

I wish people could just look at individual spells and talents for what they are, and how they interact with the game instead of comparing it to other spells/mechanics. for most of the time.

A few things that I would like to see changed this season, which I greatly feel would improve the game:

Pure DPS classes passive healing: Conversion & Spirit Bond. It's a click/talent and forget mechanic. DK's barely lose any damage and Hunters have a 100% uptime on it without having to worry about it. Keep in mind I am not asking them to nerf it, but I am asking them to change it so instead of healing up a DPS class, it provides mitigation, so DPS classes are balanced around surviving/outliving their opponent until they can be topped off. Destruction Warlocks too.
  • Hybrid offhealing: Currently hybrids, mainly ferals and hybrids, have too much offhealing potential. Talents that interact and buff your healing as a DPS spec should be removed from the game. Watching the scoreboard and seeing a feral having 75% of his healers healing done, due to his healer being in CC, seems a bit off to me. Spammable healing like balance druids can provide (elemental shamans too) also seems a bit too much. Mana should matter, when offhealing as a hybrid.
Instant crowd control and lockdown: Most of the CC, mechanic wise and duration wise, was nerfed to make the game more playable, and spells such as wyvern sting and ring of frost are not able to be interrupted by not being instant, raising the skill cap a little bit and providing a more rewarding game by playing well. Hunters & Rogues (combat) needs to be brought into line here. Rogues should be peelable during their cooldowns and kidney shot should be a 6 second duration at best. It will not affect PvE, and they will still be a strong class for arena. There has also been plenty suggestions as to how to make sub and assasination more viable. Hunters having an instant trap each 12 seconds that lasts for 8 is also just too much. Reduce the duration of the trap to 6 seconds and increase the cooldown on the trap to 20 seconds at minimum. I'm ok with it being instant as long as there are enough mechanics to help your healer avoid it.

Dispels: It feels completely unrewarding to use a cooldown and then have it instantly dispelled by a DPS class. Hunters being able to spam purge while their burst is off CD, DK's having it on a ranged slow (Icy Touch, right?), Warlocks having their pet on auto-purge & Rets being able to dispel their healer. Most of these classes would be completely fine without it being spammable, or having a CD. For Rets I can personally say I would like to see it undispelable during it's duration and have it not dispel the healer. It should be kept a defensive mechanic, and avoid the Paladin to sit in CC without some form of dmg reduction up on his partner.

My 2 cents at least. Most of these changes could be implemented and changed super fast, with no PvE consequence.

Tl;dr version:
  • Reduce healing from pure DPS specs (DKs, Hunters, Locks) & nerf spammable hybrid offhealing (ferals, balance etc)
  • Reduce combat kidneyshot to 6 seconds and peelable during killingspree, make freezing trap 6 seconds and 20 second cd.
  • Make spell steal, tranq shot, icy touch etc. not spammable and remove Rets ability to defensively dispel

Edited by Feliclandelo, 05 January 2015 - 01:52 PM.

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#11 Charred

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 08:49 PM

Great post, too bad it'll fall on deaf ears as with everything wow/community related.

Blizzard is one of the worst developers when it comes to listening to community input. It's sad really.


There has been so much potential for WoW arena to be more balanced & a great PVP game if they'd stop being so stubborn and tried using their own shitty fixes that they've been trying to use for almost a decade. Just look at what Valve does with community input for games like CSGO, why can't the same happen for WoW really.
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#12 Kelarm

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 11:10 PM

They need to revisit their entire idea regarding reducing CC in the game. I didn't play in mop so I suppose I was not here for the "great depression" of the game (or so everyone seems to say) but right now in arena I don't feel there is any less CC than any time I played throughout BC -> Cata.

It was a good idea to reduce CC and instant casts, because on paper that would promote skillful play and counterplay. But in practice they've completely botched this concept. Look at what they've done to warlocks and mages. Warlocks have had control basically removed from our class, with the removal of all slows, blanket silence, and the turbo-gutting of fear. What has historically been a control-heavy class has been reduced to a pve damage bot. Then look at mages, they got the exact opposite. They got damage deleted from their class and instead spend 80% of their globals per game casting CCs, hated by both the mage and the people he's playing against (that's when you know a design is truly horrible). How is this a cohesive design direction?

So while you've got some classes losing half their identity in this "pruning," you've got others that lost literally nothing. All these melee classes have instant cast low cooldown ranged undispellable stuns. Hunters are just flat out retarded, the strongest class I've personally seen since s5 dk. Spriests didn't really lose anything that I can see (again, I didn't play mop, but from a cata perspective, they feel exactly the same to play against). Mages can just deep your healer while sprint-blinking 70 miles away behind a pillar, and if god himself comes down to interrupt that polymorph, he simply immediately switches to ring of frost and still gets it off before the end of the deep. DKs somehow managed to keep their 9 trinkets while CC was supposedly being reduced across the board, which is just a mind-blowing shortfall of logic. It's just really obvious to see that Blizzard took this good idea and good design direction for the game and just fucked up the execution so badly that it's hard to believe they even tried.

The self-healing issue is just painfully obvious and needs to be removed ASAP. Pretty much all forms of self-healing need to go, or at the very least the zero-skill, zero-interaction ones (spirit bond, conversion, delete ferals).

DKs, hunters, mages, and warlocks need like a long, hard look from a design standpoint, a balance standpoint, or both (hunters). Then individual mechanics of other classes need to be tweaked, such as combat kidney, ret defensive utility, maybe warrior rotation, several of the offensive dispels, resto druids never having to cast while having higher throughput than jesus. That'd be a solid step toward making the game good again.

Edited by Kelarm, 05 January 2015 - 11:12 PM.

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Official Blizzard Quote:

Part of the reason is that Battlegrounds are like ducks.

Finally, I understand why pvp in this game is so bad.

#13 panooc

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 11:15 PM

see i set a positive note for your post any everyone else just jumps on the positive boat, you hit your upvote quota for the week
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#14 Nogahn

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 08:39 AM

DKs, hunters, mages, and warlocks need like a long, hard look from a design standpoint, a balance standpoint, or both (hunters). Then individual mechanics of other classes need to be tweaked, such as combat kidney, ret defensive utility, maybe warrior rotation, several of the offensive dispels, resto druids never having to cast while having higher throughput than jesus. That'd be a solid step toward making the game good again.


i guess for hunters you could say they need to put a lot of work into the class + fix 12sec trap and its radius + do something about frozen ammo and give us somekind of sv-execute ability or passive(dmg increase once teh target is below 20% maybe? or if a target drops below 20% heatlh you get a free LNL procc 10-15sec inner cooldown)
but i guess they don't know a way to fix hunters at all and that's why we allways get stupid mechanics (aspect of the fox in cata, wyvern sting last season for example or 12sec trap now )
but since they allready did a total rework of the class they don't wanna destroy the class since they kinda fucked up in the past = every specc felt teh same and now hunter feels lame mechanic wise)

Edited by Nogahn, 06 January 2015 - 08:50 AM.

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#15 Nogahn

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 08:52 AM

see i set a positive note for your post any everyone else just jumps on the positive boat, you hit your upvote quota for the week


he gets upvotes because it's actually a great thread.
stop giving yourself airs.
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#16 shunke

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 09:12 AM

TL;Dr

How they should tune damage in Pvp should be from 1 ability.

Mastery

"Fury mastery works 50% in PvP enviroment"

When rshaman healing too stronk nerf how mastery works in PvP. (rshaman gets 150% benefit from mastery in PvP)

and after that remove the stupid CC that isnt needed in PvE anyways..

this is how you can like fix game in one day.

gg i fixed the game for u

Edited by shunke, 06 January 2015 - 09:13 AM.

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#17 Hidden

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 09:46 AM

TL;Dr

How they should tune damage in Pvp should be from 1 ability.

Mastery

"Fury mastery works 50% in PvP enviroment"

When rshaman healing too stronk nerf how mastery works in PvP. (rshaman gets 150% benefit from mastery in PvP)

and after that remove the stupid CC that isnt needed in PvE anyways..

this is how you can like fix game in one day.

gg i fixed the game for u


Are you Jay Wilson?

Edited by Hidden, 06 January 2015 - 09:46 AM.

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#18 Speedymart

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 10:09 AM

I just want arms back man Ive been waiting for the 6.1 overhaul since beta
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#19 Nogahn

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 10:20 AM

I just want arms back man Ive been waiting for the 6.1 overhaul since beta


same goes for hunters and MM i guess most of us hunters don't like playing sv either since we don't do anything but cc, purge and spamming dot dmg
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#20 Hidden

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 04:41 PM

same goes for hunters and MM i guess most of us hunters don't like playing sv either since we don't do anything but cc, purge and spamming dot dmg


How is that even comparable?
All Hunter specs are completely viable, 1-2 arguably broken. None is even remotely as clunky as Arms.
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