Jump to content

Photo

So.. haste, multistrike or versality?


  • Please log in to reply
70 replies to this topic

Poll: WOD Mage stat prio (128 member(s) have cast votes)

For what gear / enchants should you aim for?

  1. Full haste (61 votes [47.66%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 47.66%

  2. Haste till 10%-15%ishh, then build versality (31 votes [24.22%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 24.22%

  3. Full multistrike (4 votes [3.12%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.12%

  4. Mix mutlistrike with haste (13 votes [10.16%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 10.16%

  5. Full versality (19 votes [14.84%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.84%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 watchmepwn

watchmepwn
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Outland
  • Misery
  • Posts: 814
  • Talents: Frost 1/1/0/2/2/2/2
  • 2v2: 1644
  • 3v3: 2260
  • RBG: 1142

Posted 31 December 2014 - 11:47 AM

I've been spotting dem armories of us and eu topmages and i find the variety of statspriority huge.

What to go for and why?

Edited by watchmepwn, 03 January 2015 - 02:24 PM.

  • 0

#2 Tsx

Tsx
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Tirion
  • Vengeance / Rache
  • Posts: 1,910
  • Talents: Frost 1/0/2/0/0/2/2
  • 2v2: 96
  • 3v3: 1963
  • RBG: 192

Posted 31 December 2014 - 11:53 AM

i go full haste , i like the fast sheeps.
  • 0

#3 AndrewB

AndrewB
  • Junkies
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Korgath
  • Vengeance
  • Posts: 211
  • Talents: Shadow 1/1/0/1/0/1/.

Posted 31 December 2014 - 11:54 AM

Multistrike is shit, hopefully that narrows it down.
  • 0

#4 Okayenhance

Okayenhance
  • Junkies
  • Dwarfclass_name
  • US-Tichondrius
  • Bloodlust
  • Posts: 521
  • Talents: Elemental 0/1/0/1/0/0/.
  • 2v2: 2107
  • 3v3: 2437
  • RBG: 768

Posted 31 December 2014 - 11:55 AM

Like most of these threads it comes down to a gameplay preference. In my experiences the top mages spam sheep more than they do anything, so my argument would be for full haste.
  • 0

#5 Gelu

Gelu
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Sylvanas
  • Rampage / Saccage
  • Posts: 142
  • Talents: Frost 1/1/2/2/2/2/2
  • 2v2: 2460
  • 3v3: 2935
  • RBG: 1814

Posted 31 December 2014 - 10:19 PM

imo just need enough haste to be able to cast a ring when you get locked on deep sheep then go full versatility as its the most defensive and offensive way to go
  • 0

#6 Dizzeeyo

Dizzeeyo
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Sylvanas
  • Rampage / Saccage
  • Posts: 3,724
  • Talents: Frost 0/2/0/2/2/2
  • RBG: 2274

Posted 31 December 2014 - 10:27 PM

if you play something that relies on cc and burst to get kills, then haste > multistrike = crit > versatility > mastery

if you play something that relies on constant damage and surviving until the other team eventually dies, then versatility rises in value

this is a mage thread, so i'm sure you can draw your own conclusions about which option of those two is the best :)

also if you have access to mythic wf pve gear, then the head from kargath, chest from brackenspore and cloak from ko'ragh are all better then their pvp equivalents for mages

Multistrike is shit, hopefully that narrows it down.

its really not :)

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 31 December 2014 - 10:30 PM.

  • 0

No because the difference is when I play a comp i play it close to skill cap

if anyone needs to be banned, it's you. You do nothing but sit on AJ being a passive aggressive idiot that nobody likes, sorry you stink of washing up liquid.

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)


#7 Tyumbra

Tyumbra
  • Junkies
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Illidan
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 460
  • Talents:

Posted 01 January 2015 - 08:36 AM

Mathematically speaking, crit and haste provide the most benefit. 1% haste = 1% more damage, and 1% crit = 1.5% more damage. However, I think it boils down to what comp you're playing, and how fast you're trying to end the match. Multistrike will only ever cap out as a 30% damage bonus, however, hitting someone for a 45k Nova + 13,500 Multi is a pretty big deal, so is having Brain Freeze and Frostbolt multis proccing FoF.

However, multi stat weights are really low, effectively giving you 2% multistrike for 1% haste or Mastery.

Versatility is arguably our weakest stat right now. It's strong if you have it, but it's too heavy (like 155 per 1%) to really be effective.
  • 0

#8 watchmepwn

watchmepwn
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Outland
  • Misery
  • Posts: 814
  • Talents: Frost 1/1/0/2/2/2/2
  • 2v2: 1644
  • 3v3: 2260
  • RBG: 1142

Posted 01 January 2015 - 06:17 PM

imo just need enough haste to be able to cast a ring when you get locked on deep sheep then go full versatility as its the most defensive and offensive way to go


Yea been doing that today in 2s, seemed good.
Im not sure for how much versality to go for though
  • 0

#9 Dizzeeyo

Dizzeeyo
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Sylvanas
  • Rampage / Saccage
  • Posts: 3,724
  • Talents: Frost 0/2/0/2/2/2
  • RBG: 2274

Posted 01 January 2015 - 06:34 PM

so is having Brain Freeze and Frostbolt multis proccing FoF.

multistrikes don't proc fof :(

Versatility is arguably our weakest stat right now. It's strong if you have it, but it's too heavy (like 155 per 1%) to really be effective.

yup, there are multiple reasons why versatility is not exactly ideal for mages on top of this. unfortunately most people these days tend to obsess over copying popular streamers gearing etc, regardless of how much or little of a clue those streamers have about how to gear, so expect to see a majority of mages gimping their stats by stacking versatility ^^

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 01 January 2015 - 06:46 PM.

  • 0

No because the difference is when I play a comp i play it close to skill cap

if anyone needs to be banned, it's you. You do nothing but sit on AJ being a passive aggressive idiot that nobody likes, sorry you stink of washing up liquid.

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)


#10 watchmepwn

watchmepwn
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Outland
  • Misery
  • Posts: 814
  • Talents: Frost 1/1/0/2/2/2/2
  • 2v2: 1644
  • 3v3: 2260
  • RBG: 1142

Posted 01 January 2015 - 10:31 PM

yup, there are multiple reasons why versatility is not exactly ideal for mages on top of this. unfortunately most people these days tend to obsess over copying popular streamers gearing etc, regardless of how much or little of a clue those streamers have about how to gear, so expect to see a majority of mages gimping their stats by stacking versatility ^^


I'm pretty sure that's the reason I opened this topic asking people where they go for and - more importantly - why they are doing it. Talked it over today with another top mage; saying versality is the best damage stat outside int + sp. Since multistrike isn't as good in pvp.

I understand why people go for the 25% haste (buffed, depended on comp) to get the poly under the gcd. But once you reached that point, stacking haste seems useless. So it's either haste till the cap u wanted and versality or multistrike on it.

So far I've seen people aspect more damage output with versality then with mulitstrike.

Edited by watchmepwn, 01 January 2015 - 10:32 PM.

  • 0

#11 Dizzeeyo

Dizzeeyo
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Sylvanas
  • Rampage / Saccage
  • Posts: 3,724
  • Talents: Frost 0/2/0/2/2/2
  • RBG: 2274

Posted 01 January 2015 - 11:00 PM

before we get started

I understand why people go for the 25% haste (buffed, depended on comp) to get the poly under the gcd

at 30% haste, polymorph cast time is 1.31 seconds, and the gcd of the mage casting polymoph is 1.15 seconds

am i missing something obvious when you say polymorph is under the gcd at 25% haste? :)
  • 0

No because the difference is when I play a comp i play it close to skill cap

if anyone needs to be banned, it's you. You do nothing but sit on AJ being a passive aggressive idiot that nobody likes, sorry you stink of washing up liquid.

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)


#12 watchmepwn

watchmepwn
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Outland
  • Misery
  • Posts: 814
  • Talents: Frost 1/1/0/2/2/2/2
  • 2v2: 1644
  • 3v3: 2260
  • RBG: 1142

Posted 01 January 2015 - 11:32 PM

am i missing something obvious when you say polymorph is under the gcd at 25% haste? :)


I havn't tested it myself; so if your correct it's not at 25%. But let's say you reach the breakpoint; the question remains versa or multi.
  • 0

#13 Norri

Norri
  • Members
  • Posts: 3

Posted 02 January 2015 - 04:38 AM

It seems that people are underestimating versatility. Let's compare versatility, crit and multistrike; I won't be comparing it with haste since the effect of haste is really hard to quantify (and you mostly want haste for faster CC anyways).

Here are the stats weights:
  • 130 versatility = 1% more damage/healing, -0.5% less damage taken
  • 110 crit = 1% crit chance
  • 66 multistrike = 1% multistrike chance

Now, if this was PvE, 2 multistrike rolls and 200% crit damage would make sure that those stats are better than versatility (crit is actually fairly bad due to Shatter's passive 50% crit, but let's leave that aside). The thing is, in PvP, you only have 150% damage on crits and only one multistrike roll. Let's do a bit of math on a character with zero crit, multistrike and versatility:
  • 1000 crit gives you ~9.1% crit, which translates into ~4.55% damage (remember, crit is only half as effective in PvP); you get ~5.4% damage increase on spells under Shatter bonus.
  • 1000 multistrike on gear gives you 1050 multistrike due to Ice Shards passive, which is ~4.77% damage.
  • 1000 versatility gives you ~7.69% damage and also -3.85% damage taken.

Obviously, your characters won't have zero crit and multistrike, but the difference is so huge that it won't matter (and in fact, having huge crit/multistrike makes versatility better - simple diminishing returns).

I also did some math on with my character's stats (mix of honor and conquest gear) and the conclusions are roughly the same. Versatility is better than both crit and multistrike in every situation; crit is slightly better than multistrike on Shatter, multistrike slightly better than crit outside. Don't forget that multistrike Frostbolt has 35% chance to proc Brain Freeze (instead of the usual 10%).

So no, stacking versatility is not gimping your stats, it's our best offensive stat.

If you want to see the formulas I used or actual results for my character, do let me know.
  • 2

#14 Tyumbra

Tyumbra
  • Junkies
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Illidan
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 460
  • Talents:

Posted 02 January 2015 - 10:55 AM

What's your math behind your reasoning? I was under the impression that a 30% chance to Multistrike for 30% more damage = 9% damage increase (.03 x .03). With the stat weight of Versatility being twice as heavy as Multistrike, you can expect roughly half the damage increase from Versatility.

In fact, I'd argue that having more Multistrike is better because your model is based on overall DPS, and having Multistrike helps with bursting people down. Two crit multistrike Ice Novas on a target is about 120k damage, whereas having 10% Versatility would only garner about 100k on a target on two crit Ice Novas.
  • 1

#15 Norri

Norri
  • Members
  • Posts: 3

Posted 02 January 2015 - 02:32 PM

Yes, 30% multistrike chance will add 9% damage. But look at it this way: 1% multistrike adds 0.3% extra damage, 1% versatility adds, well, 1% extra damage. You'd need the stat weight to be more than three times as heavy to make multistrike competetive with versatility.

I threw together a quick Haskell program to do the calculation for me, you can edit the numbers at the top and run it to see how good are these stats for your character (and also check if I didn't mess up, haha). Here's the link: ideone.com/fjc45B

The default configuration with my stats (18.48% crit with Dalaran Brilliance, 26.44% multistrike and 3.35% versatility) gives:
  • 4.16% damage increase for 1000 crit
  • 4.91% damage increase for 1000 crit with Shatter
  • 4.42% damage increase for 1000 multistrike
  • 7.44% damage increase for 1000 versatility

Edit: I didn't want to post another reply with mostly numbers, so I'll just add it here. Contrary to what Dizzeeyo thinks, this calculation doesn't use any PvE stat weights nor does it assume 100% dps uptime. Let's use some actual numbers.

Say your burst is this: get 5 stacks of Incanter's Flow, double Ice Nova (say one of them gets Shatter bonus thanks to Water Elemental's Freeze or just the second one hitting before the freeze from the first one is over), instant Frostfire Bolt and FoF Ice Lance. My spell power is roughly 6.3k, other stats as above. Expected damage just from these spells is:
  • 161.8k with no extra stats
  • 169.4k with 1000 extra crit
  • 169k with 1000 extra multistrike
  • 173.9k with 1000 extra versatility

So the damage gain for each one is:
  • 7591 damage from 1000 crit
  • 7158 damage from 1000 multistrike
  • 12049 damage from 1000 versatility

  • 1

#16 Dizzeeyo

Dizzeeyo
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Sylvanas
  • Rampage / Saccage
  • Posts: 3,724
  • Talents: Frost 0/2/0/2/2/2
  • RBG: 2274

Posted 02 January 2015 - 04:23 PM

lord save us from spreadsheet warriors and their pve statweights which assume 100% uptime dps rotation :D

also amusingly, the worst thing they could do for mages stat wise would be to actually make the pvp set bonuses worth taking over being able to pick perfect pve/offset stat gear :(

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 02 January 2015 - 04:38 PM.

  • 0

No because the difference is when I play a comp i play it close to skill cap

if anyone needs to be banned, it's you. You do nothing but sit on AJ being a passive aggressive idiot that nobody likes, sorry you stink of washing up liquid.

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)


#17 Tyumbra

Tyumbra
  • Junkies
  • Undeadclass_name
  • US-Illidan
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 460
  • Talents:

Posted 02 January 2015 - 06:35 PM

Yes, 30% multistrike chance will add 9% damage. But look at it this way: 1% multistrike adds 0.3% extra damage, 1% versatility adds, well, 1% extra damage. You'd need the stat weight to be more than three times as heavy to make multistrike competetive with versatility.

I threw together a quick Haskell program to do the calculation for me, you can edit the numbers at the top and run it to see how good are these stats for your character (and also check if I didn't mess up, haha). Here's the link: ideone.com/fjc45B

The default configuration with my stats (18.48% crit with Dalaran Brilliance, 26.44% multistrike and 3.35% versatility) gives:

  • 4.16% damage increase for 1000 crit
  • 4.91% damage increase for 1000 crit with Shatter
  • 4.42% damage increase for 1000 multistrike
  • 7.44% damage increase for 1000 versatility

Like I mentioned before, I'm not disagreeing with the math, and essentially we can have about 10% Versatility (I'm getting 1248 Versatility rating from gear + enchants, and an additional 1.05% for being Human for 10.65% total Versatility non-PvP combat), but what I'm looking more at is how it plays out in actual combat. In a sustained damage situation, the Versatility will win overall, no doubts about it. But, considering it's VASTLY easier to get Multistrike to much higher numbers (I'm at 31% base right now in PvP, I have 60% with Mark of Frostwolf buff, and could do the Glyph of Icy Veins and I'd be at 90% Multistrike).

I think with all buffs popped in PvP, I could probably get about 17-18% Versatility vs. almost 100% Multistrike. We can always reset fights and nuke someone, which is precisely how our damage is right now. It's almost like having a permanent Arcane Power buff at that point.

Edit: To clarify, I can get about 17-18% Versatility with buffs popped and NOT in combat. I'm not actually sure what the 690 gear stats would have, my numbers were based on it being 660 (just went to the vendor and added it up manually), being Human, and enchants. I think that if we are in full Versatility gear and are sitting around 20% buffed and in combat, it could be a worthwhile tradeoff from our 2/4-piece and from having nearly 100% Multistrike.

Edited by Tyumbra, 02 January 2015 - 06:52 PM.

  • 1

#18 Norri

Norri
  • Members
  • Posts: 3

Posted 02 January 2015 - 08:16 PM

Like I mentioned before, I'm not disagreeing with the math, and essentially we can have about 10% Versatility (I'm getting 1248 Versatility rating from gear + enchants, and an additional 1.05% for being Human for 10.65% total Versatility non-PvP combat), but what I'm looking more at is how it plays out in actual combat. In a sustained damage situation, the Versatility will win overall, no doubts about it. But, considering it's VASTLY easier to get Multistrike to much higher numbers (I'm at 31% base right now in PvP, I have 60% with Mark of Frostwolf buff, and could do the Glyph of Icy Veins and I'd be at 90% Multistrike).

I think with all buffs popped in PvP, I could probably get about 17-18% Versatility vs. almost 100% Multistrike. We can always reset fights and nuke someone, which is precisely how our damage is right now. It's almost like having a permanent Arcane Power buff at that point.

Edit: To clarify, I can get about 17-18% Versatility with buffs popped and NOT in combat. I'm not actually sure what the 690 gear stats would have, my numbers were based on it being 660 (just went to the vendor and added it up manually), being Human, and enchants. I think that if we are in full Versatility gear and are sitting around 20% buffed and in combat, it could be a worthwhile tradeoff from our 2/4-piece and from having nearly 100% Multistrike.


Basically, there are two approaches to burst damage: you either want to have consistent and relatively powerful burst (so you want to maximalize your expected damage) or you want to have less consistent, but possibly more devastating burst (so that when the stars align, you can deal insane damage).

The best example I have is when everyone in Cataclysm stacked mastery. This wasn't best for consistent bursts - crit quickly became better than mastery when you wanted to maximalize your expected damage - but it was great for the "when the stars align" scenario. That is, people were comfortable with something like 60% crit chance on Frozen targets (as in, the stars will align frequently enough) that they sacrificed consistent damage and went for the highest possible one.

However, I argue that we do not have to make that choice here. Versatility is the best option for both maximum damage and expected damage.

Notice that increasing crit and multistrike doesn't change the maximal possible damage you can do (in fact, you'll be fine with 0.1% multistrike and crit, but you'll have optimal burst once a year) - so, if you have reasonable amounts of crit and multistrike (which most people already do - Shatter helps with crit and you've said yourself that you get 60% multistrike with just the weapon enchant), you can go the Cataclysm way and stack versatility.

And if you want to go for the expected damage (i.e. consistent burst), then we already established that versatility is the best stat.

Edit: By the way, glyphed Icy Veins give 45% multistrike. So you want at most 55% multistrike since any amount over 100% is wasted.

If wowhead's info is correct, the most (passive) versatility you can get with PvP gear is: 1207 (from gear) + 100 (racial) + 275 (enchants) = 1582. That is about 12.17% extra damage.
  • 1

#19 zenton

zenton
  • Members
  • Undeadclass_name
  • EU-Stormscale
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 237
  • Talents: Discipline 0/0/1/1/2/1

Posted 03 January 2015 - 11:34 AM

Edit: By the way, glyphed Icy Veins give 45% multistrike. So you want at most 55% multistrike since any amount over 100% is wasted.


Yet you won't use that glyph most of the time.
  • 0

#20 Migutu

Migutu
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Darkspear
  • Cyclone
  • Posts: 60
  • Talents: Frost 0/0/0/2/1/2
  • 2v2: 1647
  • 3v3: 1696
  • 5v5: 288
  • RBG: 958

Posted 03 January 2015 - 03:03 PM

I voted full multistrike
























Just fucking kidding.
  • 1




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

<