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Frost DK Research and Stat Facts (Patch 6.2)

Frost Dk Stat priority Gear

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#21 Flakkar

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 09:00 PM

Unholy Aura and Icy Talons apply multiplicatively to your total haste: (100% + haste on gear) * UA * IT. This is common knowledge and doesn't really change anything about the weightings though as other stats benefit just as much from those haste buffs. If it was additive, it would devalue haste somewhat as you'd have a relative x / 1.15 benefit instead of a x / 1.0 benefit at 0 haste rating already.


Not sure what you mean here... If I add 1000 haste rating compared to 1000 of some other rating, the haste will get multiplied by those factors, but other stats will not. Doesn't this mean I get more out of Haste compared to others?

Also I'm not sure if it's common knowledge because it's tempting to assume that the 10% from Icy Talons and 5% from Unholy Aura are flat bonuses that are just added, not multiplied.
Unholy Aura is also adding 3% more Versatility, but it's not multiplicative, it's additive. Only Haste seems to be multiplicative.
I believe the same applies to Multistrike and Crit buffs. A 5% multistrike buff will just add a flat 5%, it won't multiply everything.
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#22 Hidden

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 09:49 PM

Not sure what you mean here... If I add 1000 haste rating compared to 1000 of some other rating, the haste will get multiplied by those factors, but other stats will not. Doesn't this mean I get more out of Haste compared to others?

Also I'm not sure if it's common knowledge because it's tempting to assume that the 10% from Icy Talons and 5% from Unholy Aura are flat bonuses that are just added, not multiplied.
Unholy Aura is also adding 3% more Versatility, but it's not multiplicative, it's additive. Only Haste seems to be multiplicative.
I believe the same applies to Multistrike and Crit buffs. A 5% multistrike buff will just add a flat 5%, it won't multiply everything.


I think it stems from the fact that Blizzard at one point decided that different haste sources should work multiplicative, this makes a lot of sense considering WoW back in classic had quite a few negative haste sources (debuffs that slow your attack/casting speed) because otherwise you'd have weird interactions such as multiple attack speed debuffs causing you to have "negative attack speed" (not attack at all?) / "negative cast speed" (infinite cast time?).

In practice, this merely means haste rating doesn't get devalued by those buffs.

Small example: Let's say you have 100 damage / 1 second = 100 DPS baseline.

If you add 10% haste, you'll have 100 / (1 / 1.1) = 110 DPS
If you add 10% versatility instead, you'll have (100 * 1.1) / 1 = 110 DPS

Now the same with UA and IT: You now have 100 / (1 / (1.1 * 1.05)) = 115.5 DPS baseline

If you add 10% haste, you'll have 100 / (1 / (1.1 * 1.05 * 1.1)) = 127.05 DPS
If you add 10% versatility instead, you'll have (100 * 1.1) / (1 / (1.1 * 1.05 )) = 127.05 DPS

As you can see, with the current mechanics, UA / IT have no influence on relative stat weightings.

If they were additive, however, they'd devalue haste: You'd now have 100 / (1 / (1 + 0.1 + 0.05)) = 115 DPS baseline

If you added 10% haste, you'd have 100 / (1 / (1 + 0.1 + 0.05 + 0.1)) = 125 DPS
If you added 10% versatility instead, you'd have (100 * 1.1) / (1 / (1 + 0.1 + 0.05)) = 126.5 DPS

As you can see, now haste would grant less DPS than versatility.

Edit: Some more detail/different explanation:
All of this is based on the fact that similar absolute gains will result in decreasing relative gains when you have a higher baseline. E.g. in an extreme example where you have an additive 100% haste buff, you'd now only gain 1% / (100% + 100%) = 0.5% more relative haste from 1% absolute haste. If the 100% haste buff is applied multiplicative, it'd also apply to the additional 1% haste now so you'd have (1% * 200%) / (100% * 200%) ) = 1% relative haste from 1% absolute haste. At the same time all other stats would simply multiply the total damage by a certain factor that's more or less constant. Therefore 1% damage through another stat would always grant 1% damage no matter if haste is calculated additive or multiplicative.

Edited by Hidden, 29 December 2014 - 10:01 PM.

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#23 Flakkar

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 09:57 PM

I think it stems from the fact that Blizzard at one point decided that different haste sources should work multiplicative, this makes a lot of sense considering WoW back in classic had quite a few negative haste sources (debuffs that slow your attack/casting speed) because otherwise you'd have weird interactions such as multiple attack speed debuffs causing you to have "negative attack speed" (not attack at all?) / "negative cast speed" (infinite cast time?).

In practice, this merely means haste rating doesn't get devalued by those buffs.

Small example: Let's say you have 100 damage / 1 second = 100 DPS baseline.

If you add 10% haste, you'll have 100 / (1 / 1.1) = 110 DPS
If you add 10% versatility instead, you'll have (100 * 1.1) / 1 = 110 DPS

Now the same with UA and IT: You now have 100 / (1 / (1.1 * 1.05)) = 115.5 DPS baseline

If you add 10% haste, you'll have 100 / (1 / (1.1 * 1.05 * 1.1)) = 127.05 DPS
If you add 10% versatility instead, you'll have (100 * 1.1) / (1 / (1.1 * 1.05 )) = 127.05 DPS

As you can see, with the current mechanics, UA / IT have no influence on relative stat weightings.

If they were additive, however, they'd devalue haste: You'd now have 100 / (1 / (1 + 0.1 + 0.05)) = 115 DPS baseline

If you added 10% haste, you'd have 100 / (1 / (1 + 0.1 + 0.05 + 0.1)) = 125 DPS
If you added 10% versatility instead, you'd have (100 * 1.1) / (1 / (1 + 0.1 + 0.05)) = 126.5 DPS

As you can see, now haste would grant less DPS than versatility.


Ok I see what you're saying. But it takes more Vers rating to get 10% Versatility than it takes to get 10% haste. So does that mean that Haste adds more DPS point for point as I was saying in my post? Or did I calculate it incorrectly?
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#24 Hidden

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 10:07 PM

Ok I see what you're saying. But it takes more Vers rating to get 10% Versatility than it takes to get 10% haste. So does that mean that Haste adds more DPS point for point as I was saying in my post? Or did I calculate it incorrectly?


Nah, my example was very simplified and assumed that 1% haste will also increase all your abilities' frequency by 1%. In practice, the formula would only apply to a part of all the damage as you already mentioned in your OP so its gains would be multiplied by the factor of damage sources it applies to. You can do the same example using the exact formulae but it just gets unnecessarily complex.

As I already mentioned, your stat weightings look pretty decent and match my Simcraft results somewhat. Basically you have Haste > Vers if you have a high uptime and Haste ~= Vers if you have an average uptime (and Vers > Haste for very low uptime, but I'd argue you're realistically not going to win in this case anyway).

Of course this is pure damage and Vers also increases your damage mitigation so if your team ever loses because you're taking too much damage, versatility is probably the stat of choice for you.

Edited by Hidden, 29 December 2014 - 10:12 PM.

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#25 Schwarzfaust

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 11:39 PM

But since we are in PvP and since it's not all about math and considering that targets move and are not standing still-- am I wrong to go full versatility?

If I get kited for 5s and my rune refresh anyway.... isn't vers better for higher dmg output on all sources?
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#26 Flakkar

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 12:11 AM

But since we are in PvP and since it's not all about math and considering that targets move and are not standing still-- am I wrong to go full versatility?

If I get kited for 5s and my rune refresh anyway.... isn't vers better for higher dmg output on all sources?


You will be fine stacking Vers. As I was saying though, you will rarely have to choose between Haste and Vers. They often come on the same piece. Sometimes you will have a choice between Haste/Mastery and Vers/Crit. In that case, taking the Vers is not worth it because Crit is really bad. Outside of these, the only big decision is the enchants, which you can for sure just take straight Vers. It depends on how much you get kited. In my opinion, if you're getting kited really hard and can't DPS, then it doesn't matter how much Versatility you have, you will probably lose. You need to actually spend a while on a target to do any serious damage. And it should be enough time for Haste to do its job.
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#27 Hyruliann

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 05:10 PM

So for Ashran rep, I just solo run around and kill players or NPC's?
It took you an hour to finish by doing that?

Thanks in advance
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#28 Flakkar

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 06:57 PM

So for Ashran rep, I just solo run around and kill players or NPC's?
It took you an hour to finish by doing that?

Thanks in advance


You have to loot the insignia of dead players. You will have to be quick and ninja it from other ppl. Usually you will only get Artifacts, but sometimes you will get a blue item that you can turn in for lots of rep. You also get a key sometimes that can open chests that spawn on the main path.

Literally all I did was hang around the main zerg and run up and loot every player when they died. You have to be quick though. Since you get 2750 rep for each blue item, and the drop rate is probably 20% or so, it takes no time at all to get Revered.

Also try and win Ashran at least once a day. You will get 350 conquest points, a purple box that can contain epic pvp gear, and you also get a bunch of rep.
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#29 Hyruliann

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 07:00 PM

Thanks Fla

You have to loot the insignia of dead players. You will have to be quick and ninja it from other ppl. Usually you will only get Artifacts, but sometimes you will get a blue item that you can turn in for lots of rep. You also get a key sometimes that can open chests that spawn on the main path.

Literally all I did was hang around the main zerg and run up and loot every player when they died. You have to be quick though. Since you get 2750 rep for each blue item, and the drop rate is probably 20% or so, it takes no time at all to get Revered.

Also try and win Ashran at least once a day. You will get 350 conquest points, a purple box that can contain epic pvp gear, and you also get a bunch of rep.


Thanks :)

Do I have to tag them, or can I loot any dead corpse?
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#30 Flakkar

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 09:13 PM

Thanks Fla

Thanks :)

Do I have to tag them, or can I loot any dead corpse?


Hmm, good question. I don't think you have to tag them because I remember I once walked into the ogre king area after a huge fight, and I just ran around looting bodies and got a few of those items. But I might be wrong. Wouldn't hurt to hit em once or twice for good measure :P
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#31 Flakkar

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Posted 30 December 2014 - 11:20 PM

I have been looking at uptime a little closer and here's what I found. Hopefully this will help with the decision of going Haste or Vers for enchants. It's a tough call. On the one hand, Haste is better but only if used perfectly, while Vers is very tolerant of mistakes, getting kited, etc.

I added the following to the original post:
  • EDIT: I have been studying the uptime requirements of Haste and here's what I see: you are getting 100% of Haste's effect if you constantly have one rune of each type on cooldown. That is, you must have 1 death rune, 1 frost rune, and 1 unholy rune on cooldown. Haste also increases autoattack speed, but most of the benefit is in the runes, not the autoattack. It's probably common knowledge that only one rune of each type can be recharging at a time. Therefore, Haste can at most affect the recharge of 3 runes simultaneously. If you don't have one rune of each type depleted, then Haste's contribution is being reduced. If you have 2 runes recharging, then you're getting 66.7% of Haste's effect. One rune is 33.3% etc. Note that if you can't keep one of each rune type constantly recharging during a fight, then you should definitely switch to Versatility. Haste is automatically worse than Versatility if you are sitting on two runes of the same type for a long period of time. For some this might be what convinces them to go Vers instead. I am sitting on the fence myself right now, but I did a BG and checked my runes, and I am almost never sitting on two runes of the same type while in combat. Even if you're kited, you are still using chains of ice, howling blast, etc and using up those runes.

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#32 Forumz

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 10:14 AM

I have been looking at uptime a little closer and here's what I found. Hopefully this will help with the decision of going Haste or Vers for enchants. It's a tough call. On the one hand, Haste is better but only if used perfectly, while Vers is very tolerant of mistakes, getting kited, etc.

I added the following to the original post:

  • EDIT: I have been studying the uptime requirements of Haste and here's what I see: you are getting 100% of Haste's effect if you constantly have one rune of each type on cooldown. That is, you must have 1 death rune, 1 frost rune, and 1 unholy rune on cooldown. Haste also increases autoattack speed, but most of the benefit is in the runes, not the autoattack. It's probably common knowledge that only one rune of each type can be recharging at a time. Therefore, Haste can at most affect the recharge of 3 runes simultaneously. If you don't have one rune of each type depleted, then Haste's contribution is being reduced. If you have 2 runes recharging, then you're getting 66.7% of Haste's effect. One rune is 33.3% etc. Note that if you can't keep one of each rune type constantly recharging during a fight, then you should definitely switch to Versatility. Haste is automatically worse than Versatility if you are sitting on two runes of the same type for a long period of time. For some this might be what convinces them to go Vers instead. I am sitting on the fence myself right now, but I did a BG and checked my runes, and I am almost never sitting on two runes of the same type while in combat. Even if you're kited, you are still using chains of ice, howling blast, etc and using up those runes.

Not to forget purges. More haste = more Icy Touch purges. You can't measure dispelling in terms of output, but dispelling a 50k shield is the same as doing 50k damage.
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#33 Blueberrysoda

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 10:37 AM

dks blow

Edited by Blueberrysoda, 31 December 2014 - 10:37 AM.

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#34 Flakkar

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 04:23 PM

Not to forget purges. More haste = more Icy Touch purges. You can't measure dispelling in terms of output, but dispelling a 50k shield is the same as doing 50k damage.


Right! Thanks for your input. I have updated the main post.
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#35 Hyruliann

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 05:07 PM

So I'm capped on honor...
Are any of those Ashran rep items purchasable with honor, or are they only conquest?
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#36 unifin

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 06:34 PM

So I'm capped on honor...
Are any of those Ashran rep items purchasable with honor, or are they only conquest?


Conquest only.
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#37 Wakkachaka

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Posted 31 December 2014 - 07:18 PM

did some of my own calculations which may not be very accurate. This is for an Unholy DK. I took each secondary stat and added up the total amount of that stat possible to obtain from the Primal Gladiator's Gear and the best enchants possible that you can obtain to help increase that stat. Every single one of these will also include that you will have 4p.

Multistrike
275 77 77 77 147 102 147 110 102 77 / 65.98
1191 = 18.05%
Unholy = 23.05%
(Necrosis = 5% SS FS PS SR PEST Add Dmg)

Versatility
767 / 68.97
1321 / 68.97
767 = 11.12%
Trinket Proc 19.15% Dmg/Heal 9.58% Dmg Red
Unholy = 14.12%
Trinket Proc 22.15% Dmg/Heal 11.07 Dmg Red
(Unholy Aura 3%)

Haste
275 89 77 89 89 118 110 147 102 118 89 / 100
1303 = 13.03%
Unholy = 38.03%
(Soul Reaper Proc 88.03%)
(5% Unholy Aura + 20% Unholy Pres + 50% Soul Reaper)

Critical Strike
275 147 89 89 77 89 147 118 110 147 110 118 89 (357) / 110
1605 = 14.59% or Trinket 17.83%
Unholy = 19.59% or Trinket 22.83%
(5% Base/Other)

Mastery
275 147 77 89 198 77 137 118 147 147 110 118 77 / 44.01
1717 = 39.01%
Unholy = 59.01%
4p Proc 79.01%
(20% Base/Other + 20% 4p 15 sec proc)



I'm not sure which will be the best stat to stack after Strength, but from what I can see I will either go Mastery or Versatility. Versatility includes the on use Trinket proc. Crit includes the passive crit buff from the on use health buff trinket. Mastery includes the 4p bonus which increases all shadow done and should be equal to what the unholy mastery does. I feel like overall, you cannot obtain enough Crit, MS, or Haste percentages to make as big of a difference like you can with Mastery and Versatility.This isn't raid buffed. ;)

Frost gains is Icy Talons which would increase your attack speed by 20%, haste by 10%, and you gain 5% haste more of the haste stat from all other sources. Frost also gains a debuff from 4p when your freezing fog is active, the next hb increases frost damage taken by 10% for 8 sec.
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#38 Twaenkz

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Posted 01 January 2015 - 01:32 AM

So many Dks running different parts, are you all just getting luck parts from RBGs and stuff? yet to see anyone follow the gearing guideline full out
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#39 Vadren

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Posted 01 January 2015 - 01:42 AM

Some good posts. Glad to see my gut feeling after briefly looking at pve stat weights backed up by reason.
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Vadren#1175

#40 Flakkar

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Posted 01 January 2015 - 03:37 AM

So many Dks running different parts, are you all just getting luck parts from RBGs and stuff? yet to see anyone follow the gearing guideline full out


Yeah I've got a bunch of "luck" parts. Prolly half my pieces are from RBG wins, Ashran, the Highmaul coliseum, etc. Some I got lucky and got the good stats, others not so much.
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