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Frost DK Research and Stat Facts (Patch 6.2)

Frost Dk Stat priority Gear

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#1 Flakkar

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Posted 26 December 2014 - 10:05 PM

*
POPULAR

*** UPDATED FOR 6.2 ***

Hi everyone,

Here we go again folks! It's about time for the 6.2 version. Everything is different now and 2h is taking the back seat while DW appears to be the best early in the season with amazing sustained pressure and the ability to mow plate wearers into the ground!

TLDR: See my 6.2 frost stat priority and gear suggestion at the bottom.

Change History:
Jan 13, 2015 - Haste rating effect buffed by 11.1%, Icy Talons buffed to 20% haste, up from 5%. Note that tooltips in the game are not updated yet (possibly requires a client patch), but I can confirm the changes are live due to seeing them on my stat sheet. See edits in green throughout the post.
July 12, 2015 - Updated for 6.2. See edits in blue throughout the post!

Special Notes:
(*) means I assume it's correct if not bugged but I didn't test it. I'll put this next to things I take for granted.
(**) means I actually tested this to prove that it is indeed this way. For brevity, I didn't outline how, but I can if requested.
(?) means I'm not sure, but if someone could test this somehow, it would be great

Let's start with seconday stat ratings and how much damage they contribute.

Rating points required for 1% increase (** tested this myself):
Haste 90
Crit 110
Multistrike(MS) 66
Mastery(MA) 55
Versatility(Vers) 130

Let's take a realistic but nice looking number of how much of each stat you could stack, say 1000 rating points.

For 1000 rating points you would get:
11.1% Haste
9.09% Crit
15.15% MS
18.18% MA
7.69% Vers
In addition, most stats scale linearly with the exception of stats that add flat % bonus damage ( Versatility and Mastery), which become more and more powerful as you add other stats.

NOTE: Crit and MS are nerfed in PvP! This may be obvious to some, but a lot of people don't take this into account when calculating stat priorities! Each Crit does 150% damage instead of 200%, and there is only one chance at a 30% MS instead of two chances. This also applies to heals!

Taking the nerfs into account, let's do an average damage increase you would get from each stat if you stacked 1000 rating worth. I will not account for burstiness here, because getting a string of lucky crits of multistrikes can always happen, but it will even out in the end, and you don't want to rely on pure luck to win arena matches.

Haste (13.86% (given infinite uptime) DPS increase per 1000 rating points):
Haste is a good stat for frost and provides excellent boosts to sustained DPS. Here's why:
Icy Talons(10% and 20%) and Unholy Aura(5%) apply multiplicatively, all haste you equip is getting multiplied by 1.1*1.20*1.05 = 1.386.

Let's take an example:
I have 15.50% base haste with nothing equipped. Icy Talons gives 10% flat, plus an additional 10% modifier on every other haste effect except Unholy Aura for some reason. Unholy Aura gives 5% flat, plus an additional 5% modifier on every other haste effect. This gives 10 (icy talons) + 5 (unholy aura) + 10*0.05 (unholy aura bonus to icy talons base 10%) = 15.50. I am an NE so I get 1% Haste at night, but I did this test during the day where I did not have that 1% buff to Haste. I also did the test at night and the numbers I see are consistent.

Icy Talons (recently buffed) also adds 20% more of the equipped haste stat.

When you add Unholy presence on top, it adds yet another factor, multiplying (not adding to) every source of haste by another 10 or 20% (depending on spec), as well as adding its own 10 or 20% base amount.

1000 Haste rating / 90 pts per % rating * 1.386% extra for Frost DKs = 15.4% Haste, but let's use 15% for the sake of example since it's a nicer number.
  • 15% haste means 15% faster attack speed, which means 15% more auto-attack damage (**).
  • 15% haste also means 15% more Killing Machine (KM) procs (**) due to increased attack speed.
  • 15% haste also means 15% faster rune regeneration (**), meaning that (for ex) over 100 seconds, a rune would fully cycle 11.5 times instead of 10 if you depleted it instantly every time it came back.
  • Haste does NOT affect the GCD because it's already capped at 1 second (**).
  • Haste does NOT affect diseases (**).
  • Haste does NOT affect Conversion, or Breath of Sindragosa (BoS), or any skill that says it ticks "every X seconds".
It's tempting to think that haste offers a 15.4% DPS increase, but there's a couple things to note.
  • Haste does not fully kick in immediately once you start attacking. At first you will get faster auto-attacks, so about 2.6-3 seconds after you attack, you will get a second auto-attack that will be sooner with more haste. But after that, it will take around 7 seconds for runes to start coming back due to higher haste.
  • Haste does not affect diseases. From my tests, diseases seem to compose at most 10% of my DPS. I don't personally think it's worth noting spread damage from having it on multiple targets as Frost spec. The damage is so pitiful that it will not factor into you winning games. You are not a rot spec.
  • Haste does not affect the GCD.
  • Haste does not affect Breath of Sindragosa while it's up, so it will not make it burst faster. However, it will make your runes come back faster, which might allow BoS to stay up longer due to the extra runic power you will have. This only applies for 2h because BoS is bad as DW.
  • Haste can at most affect the recharge of 3 runes simultaneously. If you don't have one rune of each type depleted, then Haste's contribution is being reduced. If you have 2 runes recharging, then you're getting 66.7% of Haste's effect. One rune is 33.3% etc.
  • Haste is uptime dependent. (See below for uptime explanation) This means that if you can't keep one of each rune type constantly on cooldown, then you won't get all of its DPS increase.
  • Haste also adds some utility because you will be able to use Icy Touch more often for purges, plus more uses of Chains of Ice, and you will have more RP for interrupts, Conversion, and Dark Simulacrum.
  • I also see a lot of people saying that if you have a crappy connection, Haste is worse. This may be real if you lose some time after runes come off cooldown. Try switching to Unholy presence and feel the effects of 10% more haste. Imagine that effect in Frost presence where you don't lose the RP gen, and see if it would be better for you.
  • There is concern that there's such thing as too much haste. This is true to an extent. As you stack more and more haste, Versatility and Mastery (DW only) become more powerful, so you don't want to stack haste. You just want some of it.
So to conclude: 1000 points of haste gives roughly 13.86% DPS increase (1.54% lost due to not affecting diseases) if you have infinite uptime. In reality, this isn't going to happen, but it's extremely unlikely that you will not have at least a few runes on cooldown, which is enough to get lots of benefit from Haste. In addition, since Versatility and Mastery (DW only) scale better with more gear they will outpace Haste eventually. They also contribute to burstiness whereas Haste only lets you burst more often.

Crit (3.64% DPS increase per 1000 rating points):
Yes, Crit is really bad, and probably the worst stat for Frost, including DW. Here's why.
1000 rating / 110 rating per % = 9.09 Crit chance for 1000 rating.
So we are adding a 9.09% chance to do 50% additional damage, meaning on every attack that can crit we are adding 4.545% damage.
  • Diseases can Crit! Actually all damage a DK does can Crit! (*)
  • But there's a catch: Killing Machine. KM guaranteed Crits means the your Crit is useless when KM procs! Based on my tests, about half of my Oblits and Frost Strikes are used when KM is up. If you are really good at managing your resources, it might be more than half, but let's assume half for now. On my tests, my Frost Strikes and Oblits (2h or DW) combined do between 40-50% of my overall damage no matter if I'm bursting, or just normally DPSing. So that means that if half my oblierates/frost strikes don't use KM, then my Crit is not being used half the time, so the real Crit contribution is more around 4.545% * 80% = 3.64%.
Multistrike (4.545% DPS increase per 1000 rating points):
As Blizzard themselves have said, Crit and MS are equal, even in PvP.
1000 rating / 66 rating per % = 15.15% MS chance for 1000 rating.
So we are adding an 15.15% chance to do 30% additional damage, so by simple math: 15.15% * 30% = 4.545% damage increase.
  • Every attack can MS, including diseases. I am not sure if Death Strike healing can MS (?), but I am pretty sure that Conversion cannot (?).
  • Multistrikes can crit! And KM procs (if they proc MS), will automatically Crit on the MS proc.
Mastery (~12.2% for DW, (~6% for 2h) DPS increase per 1000 rating points):
For 2h Mastery is kinda weird and hard to calculate, but it proved to be pretty crap in 6.1. Now in 6.2, DW is heavily favored due to the savage buffs to Frost Strike and Howling Blast. So much so, that Mastery is easily the best stat for DW.

1000 rating / 55 rating per % = 18.18% Mastery for 1000 rating.
  • This means 18% increased Frost and Shadowfrost damage (**). But how much of our damage is actually Frost or Shadowfrost?
  • For 2h: According to my tests, I get between 25-40% Frost damage (when doing regular dps), averaging around 33%. Strangely enough, this applies even when doing crazy burst with BoS, because you are not using Frost Strike.
  • For 2h: So therefore 18.18% * 33% = ~6% damage increase per 1000 Mastery. This beats Crit and MS assuming at least 25% of your damage is Frost or Shadowfrost, which is a pretty safe assumption.
  • For DW: According to my tests, I get between 67-70% Frost or Shadowfrost damage (when doing regular dps).
  • For DW: Therefore 18.18% * 67% = ~12.2% damage increase per 1000 Mastery.
Versatility (7.69% DPS increase per 1000 rating points):
This is the easiest one to calculate. This is a great stat because it offers healing and defense bonuses.
1000 rating / 130 rating per % = 7.69% Versatility for 1000 rating.
  • 7.69% Versatility means 7.69% more damage across the board on all damage DKs do (*).
  • 7.69% Versatility means 7.69% more healing on Deathstrike, and other heals that are not %life based. Versatility does not increase Conversion healing!(**)
  • 7.69% Versatility also means 3.85% less damage taken from all sources (*).
Some ugly facts I found while testing:
  • The PvP target dummy at the Glad Sanctum takes double damage from crits instead of 50% more - probably a bug. Multistrikes are also causing 2 strikes instead of 1.
Strength:
I didn't test anything for Strength, but it almost never overlaps with secondary stats, so not much to discuss here. Even if it does, Str gets so many insane %-based bonuses from DK passives and procs that it easily outdoes the other stats (*).

Putting it all together:
  • All the numbers are for 1000 rating in isolation. Some may wonder if it changes when you throw all the stats together and in different amounts. It does make a difference for % damage increase stats like Mastery and Versatility, but you need thousands of rating points to see a difference. I once graphed it out and found the sweet spots and everything, but it's not worth showing here. I think the conclusion is: stack % damage stats and just get some of the rest while avoiding crappy stats like Crit.
  • Strengh is most likely the best stat in all cases, unless someone can prove otherwise.
  • For 2H: Haste and Versatility are both really good. Haste is better in terms of pure math, but Vers benefits your early burst more (i.e. the first 7-8 seconds of DPS after starting with full runes). We are looking at 13.86% more DPS (but not in the first few seconds of damage) vs 7.69% more DPS (active at all times). Haste's benefits will only fully start showing up after runes start coming off cooldown. During the initial burst, you will only gain the increased auto-attacks and KM procs. Versatility does have the healing and damage reduction benefits, though they are less important for DKs compared to the damage benefit, and Haste has some built-in survivability too due to the rune regen for Death Strike, and extra RP for Conversion. This could make a great discussion to see which is better, Haste or Vers. Looking at the DK gear though, it looks like you can usually get them both together. If your connection sucks, or you think that Haste feels worse when you play, go for Vers since it is by far the best other choice.
  • For DW: Mastery is hands down the best, followed by Versatility due to the % damage increase nature. Crit and MS remain crap, and Haste is somwhere in the middle. Haste is nice to have, but not nice to stack.
  • I have studied the uptime requirements of Haste and here's what I see: you are getting 100% of Haste's effect if you constantly have at least one rune of each type on cooldown. That is, you must have at least 1 death rune, 1 frost rune, and 1 unholy rune on cooldown. Haste also increases autoattack speed, but most of the benefit is in the runes, not the autoattack. It's probably common knowledge that only one rune of each type can be recharging at a time (if not, see Haste section above). Haste DPS is only worse than Versatility if you are sitting on two runes of the same type two rune pairs for a significant period of time. I have been checking my runes for a few weeks now, and I am almost never sitting on two rune pairs while in combat (except at the beginning when all runes are up, but it takes only 1 GCD to put enough runes on cooldown). Even if you're kited, you are still using icy touch for purges (thanks Scoot), chains of ice, howling blast, etc and using up those runes.
  • There is no doubt that for 2H, Vers is better for bursting. Haste doesn't help you much if you're blowing ERW and Plague Leech.
  • Crit is flat out the worst from the numbers.
Stat Priority:
So the stat prio for 6.2 DW Frost in my opinion is the following ('>>' means much better).
Str >> MA >> Vers > Haste > MS >> Crit

The stat prio for 6.2 2h Frost remains:
Str >> Vers > Haste > MS >= Mastery >> Crit

Gear Selection:

Go DW this season. The pressure it puts out is unreal! Hope they don't nerf it...
Here is my best attempt at putting together a gearset that satisfies the above.


Note: For DW I'm recommending the 4 piece bonus, but I'm not 100% sure that it's the way to go. You gain 10% more frost damage, but you're trading around 5-6% DPS and 1% damage reduction for it. If it turns out that 4 piece bonus uptime isn't close to 100% during bursts (uptime seems pretty good from my experience), then we should ditch all the set pieces and stack mastery.

Armor option 1: 4 set pieces
Helm: Set helm
Chest: MA/Vers
Shoulders: Set shoulders
Gloves: Set gloves
Legs: Set pants


Armor option 2: 2 set pieces
Helm: Set helm
Chest: MA/Vers
Shoulders: Set shoulders
Gloves: MA/Haste
Legs: MA/Vers

Accessories:
Boots: MA/MS
Belt: Vers/MA
Bracer: MA/Haste
Neck: MA/Crit
Cloak: MA/Haste
Ring1: MS/Haste
Ring2: MA/Crit
Trinket1: Str with on use Vers
Trinket2: If human the alternate Str trinket or Vers+proc Str one. If any other race, the 800 Vers stun breaker trinket.
Enchants: Mastery

Weapon Enchants: Fallen Crusader mainhand, Razorice offhand

Final projected bonuses:
+8.4% MS option 1, +12.7% option 2
+43.3% MA option 1, +47.2% option 2
+11.5% Vers option 1, +13.5% Vers option 2 (with 800 Vers trinket)
+7.4% Crit option 1, +2.9% option 2
+15.5% Haste option 1, +11.1% option 2

Edited by Flakkar, 18 September 2015 - 03:12 AM.

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#2 Forumz

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Posted 26 December 2014 - 10:27 PM

Seems about right to me.

I didn't really read it entirely but it looks well reasoned so have a +rep.
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#3 Zamal

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Posted 26 December 2014 - 11:36 PM

Great post, thank you.
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#4 Ownu

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Posted 26 December 2014 - 11:57 PM

Good work. I'd like to quote and reference you in my own post, with your permission.
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#5 Flakkar

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Posted 27 December 2014 - 12:17 AM

Good work. I'd like to quote and reference you in my own post, with your permission.


Sure go ahead. Let me know if you notice any inconsistencies, or suggest some further areas to research.
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#6 chemtrail420

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Posted 27 December 2014 - 12:46 AM

First of all, thanks for putting the time into the research for and writing of this post. I'm going to point out a few things that I would like to discuss further.

Haste does not affect Breath of Sindragosa, so it will not make it burst faster. However, it will make your runes come back 10% faster, which will allow BoS to stay up 10% longer.



I don't see how this necessarily is true. Your rune recharge rate should only affect the duration of a BoS if you actually get runes back during it. Assuming you pool up RP and runes and proceed to dump all of your runes on obliterates during BoS (once or twice depending on whether you have Empowered Rune Weapon) you're then left with no remaining runes at at most 100 RP with BoS still running at 15 RP/s.
There should be a relatively clear breakpoint where it's realistic for two runes to recharge fast enough to let you obliterate again before BoS has ended, and even if you get there (which shouldn't be possible with current gear) the added duration shouldn't be proportional to your haste percentage.


As Haste increases, the number of KM procs increases at the same rate (**), so the contribution of Crit will decrease even further.



Doesn't the amount of obliterates you use increase at exactly the same rate? So the ratio between KM oblits and non-KM oblits should be roughly the same regardless of your haste rating, no?



Haste makes everything happen faster, so it's independent.



But it doesn't increase your dot damage at all since they don't tick faster and more runes sadly doesn't necessarily result in more dots. This should mean that haste stacking makes mastery less beneficial and vice versa.
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#7 Flakkar

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Posted 27 December 2014 - 01:18 AM

I don't see how this necessarily is true. Your rune recharge rate should only affect the duration of a BoS if you actually get runes back during it. Assuming you pool up RP and runes and proceed to dump all of your runes on obliterates during BoS (once or twice depending on whether you have Empowered Rune Weapon) you're then left with no remaining runes at at most 100 RP with BoS still running at 15 RP/s.
There should be a relatively clear breakpoint where it's realistic for two runes to recharge fast enough to let you obliterate again before BoS has ended, and even if you get there (which shouldn't be possible with current gear) the added duration shouldn't be proportional to your haste percentage.

This sounds reasonable. The most you can possibly reduce the rune cooldown is to 6.67s if you have 50% haste. At 30% haste it's around 7.69, which is where my gear is around. With current gear you can get to about 31.8% haste if I crunched the numbers right and if you are a NE or something and get 1% haste at night. If you save all runes and 100 RP, you will get 72 RP from the 3 oblits, then 3 more after you empower rune weapon, giving another 72 RP, plus the 50 from empower. This nets 294 RP which is 19-20 seconds of BoS, and this is not counting runic corruption or Plague Leech (which might be the 2 runes you're looking for). Let's say it doesn't go perfectly for you and you only manage ~15 seconds, then it may be enough time to get a 3rd rune cycle in, especially with shorter GCD. This is difficult to calculate. I will try and research more into this.


Doesn't the amount of obliterates you use increase at exactly the same rate? So the ratio between KM oblits and non-KM oblits should be roughly the same regardless of your haste rating, no?

This is a very good point. It does indeed. What I was thinking here is that with higher haste, you will see less waiting for runes to become available when you have a KM proc but no runes to Oblit. So instead of being tempted to hit that Frost Strike, you will be tempted to wait the 1-2 seconds for the Oblit to become available and do some serious damage. I am personally seeing great results with runic corruption. So I think it will be easier to use the KM proc and thus more wasted Crit, but there's also a flipside that if you hold the KM proc too long, you can have overlapping procs which would really suck. I will modify my post to reflect the uncertainty here.


But it doesn't increase your dot damage at all since they don't tick faster and more runes sadly doesn't necessarily result in more dots. This should mean that haste stacking makes mastery less beneficial and vice versa.

I accounted for haste not affecting disease ticks and subtracted some of its DPS accordingly. I'm not sure what you mean by making mastery less beneficial. More haste means more chances to deal frost damage from Frost Strike and Howling Blast, but it leaves diseases unaffected. I personally see a low percentage of my damage coming from diseases, and Mastery is pretty low on the list of priorities for Frost, so I don't see any issues with stacking haste in this regard.
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#8 chemtrail420

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Posted 27 December 2014 - 02:27 AM

If you save all runes and 100 RP, you will get 72 RP from the 3 oblits, then 3 more after you empower rune weapon, giving another 72 RP, plus the 50 from empower. This nets 294 RP which is 19-20 seconds of BoS, and this is not counting runic corruption or Plague Leech (which might be the 2 runes you're looking for). Let's say it doesn't go perfectly for you and you only manage ~15 seconds, then it may be enough time to get a 3rd rune cycle in, especially with shorter GCD. This is difficult to calculate. I will try and research more into this


None of the things you list has anything to do with the benefit that haste has on your BoS duration. Whatever duration you manage to achieve using those tools you'd be able to get with 0 haste (not 100% sure about rune regen talents but I assume they're only affected by the rate of which runic power is spent).
What matters is whether there is enough time after using your last obliterate during that rune reset rotation for two of your runes to come back up from normal (haste-affected) recharging so you can obliterate again before BoS ends. The FULL duration of the BoS is not relevant since you reset your rune timers with ERW and Plague Leech, which is not affected by your haste.


This is a very good point. It does indeed. What I was thinking here is that with higher haste, you will see less waiting for runes to become available when you have a KM proc but no runes to Oblit. So instead of being tempted to hit that Frost Strike, you will be tempted to wait the 1-2 seconds for the Oblit to become available and do some serious damage. I am personally seeing great results with runic corruption. So I think it will be easier to use the KM proc and thus more wasted Crit, but there's also a flipside that if you hold the KM proc too long, you can have overlapping procs which would really suck. I will modify my post to reflect the uncertainty here.

I don't think my nitpicking had any real impact on the validity of your point, a higher amount of obliterates AND killing machine procs will probably mean that guaranteed crits are a bigger part of your total amount of damage than before, even if the ratio between KM and non-KM obliterates stays the same. There's always some timing and RNG issues but on average it should stay true.


I accounted for haste not affecting disease ticks and subtracted some of its DPS accordingly. I'm not sure what you mean by making mastery less beneficial. More haste means more chances to deal frost damage from Frost Strike and Howling Blast, but it leaves diseases unaffected. I personally see a low percentage of my damage coming from diseases, and Mastery is pretty low on the list of priorities for Frost, so I don't see any issues with stacking haste in this regard.

To be honest I forgot about frost strike and howling blast, but my point was that as your haste increases, the part of your damage that is affected by mastery decreases relative to the part that isn't and the value of mastery should decrease with it. The DoTs obviously behave in this way but I can't tell if the extra frost strikes and howling blasts from the added haste compensate for that or not.
Either way I don't really think it takes anything away from haste stacking, no, but it might be something to consider when choosing between mastery and multistrike as a third stat.
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#9 Forumz

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Posted 27 December 2014 - 12:14 PM

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None of the things you list has anything to do with the benefit that haste has on your BoS duration. Whatever duration you manage to achieve using those tools you'd be able to get with 0 haste (not 100% sure about rune regen talents but I assume they're only affected by the rate of which runic power is spent).
What matters is whether there is enough time after using your last obliterate during that rune reset rotation for two of your runes to come back up from normal (haste-affected) recharging so you can obliterate again before BoS ends. The FULL duration of the BoS is not relevant since you reset your rune timers with ERW and Plague Leech, which is not affected by your haste.


Not entirely true. If you spend your runes in a fashion of:

3 x oblit > ERW > 3 x oblit > Plague Leech,

you will have the 2nd set of runes recharging during the globals spent on plague leech etc, so that timer won't reset. If you have enough haste, you can get another obliterate in, which would give you another tick (perhaps two if you're lucky).

I'm sure it's possible to calculate what amount of haste you'd need for this rotation of abilities.

And for OP: Haste doesn't affect our GCDs, as they're already capped on speed.

Edited by Forumz, 27 December 2014 - 12:16 PM.

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#10 Flakkar

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Posted 27 December 2014 - 04:42 PM

And for OP: Haste doesn't affect our GCDs, as they're already capped on speed.


Yikes, I just tested this and you're right. For some reason it felt faster in unholy presence, but it must have been something else. I will have to adjust the numbers in this case. Thanks for catching that!
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#11 chemtrail420

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Posted 27 December 2014 - 05:10 PM

Not entirely true. If you spend your runes in a fashion of:

3 x oblit > ERW > 3 x oblit > Plague Leech,

you will have the 2nd set of runes recharging during the globals spent on plague leech etc, so that timer won't reset. If you have enough haste, you can get another obliterate in, which would give you another tick (perhaps two if you're lucky).

I'm sure it's possible to calculate what amount of haste you'd need for this rotation of abilities.


You're right, plague leech does extend the timing window without diminishing the effect that haste has on your other four runes, of which three should be recharging when you plague leech.
This makes me think of runic empowerment and blood tap, how they similarly only reactivate fully depleted runes. They should have a similar effect on the timing window as opposed to runic corruption, which interacts with the timing in a whole other way.
I don't think I can bring myself to explore these hypotheticals any further, but I think we've established that haste affects the duration of BoS in a non-linear manner.
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#12 YasTourneySux

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Posted 27 December 2014 - 08:56 PM

Sure go ahead. Let me know if you notice any inconsistencies, or suggest some further areas to research.


You are not calculating for the 5% increased haste from all sources passive.
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#13 Flakkar

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Posted 27 December 2014 - 10:08 PM

You are not calculating for the 5% increased haste from all sources passive.


I am actually. Check the beginning of the Haste section. I am just using 10% as an example because it's a nicer number than 10.5%.
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#14 Sevre

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 03:23 AM

Really great post. 10/10
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#15 Flakkar

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 05:28 AM

Really great post. 10/10


Thank you! I was debating whether to post it at all since I don't normally do stuff like this. I'm very glad that I did, and hopefully helped some ppl :)
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#16 Hidden

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 07:45 AM

Some of the reasoning is slightly off but the weightings/priorities look pretty good nonetheless.

E.g.

As we stack Haste, KM procs increase, so more MS will crit. This is hard to calculate (?), but MS is probably worth a little more than 4.545% DPS.


Every stat scales with every other stat, this isn't any special to MS. Since Frost has no special MS interactions and MS applies to every damaging ability I'm aware of, MS can be seen as a flat % damage multiplier as Frost.

The following part talks about stats becoming worse when you get more of another stat but that's only when compared to other stats. They don't actually get worse but they scale less than linearly with some other stat so they get comparatively worse than stats which would scale linearly with that stat.

EDIT (thanks chemtrail420): This may get even worse if you stack Haste. As Haste increases, the number of KM procs increases at the same rate (**). The number of overall Oblits will increase at the same rate as well, but we might see more tempting situations where you have 1-2 seconds left before a KM Oblit, so you will resist hitting Frost Strike until then. This could increase the ratio of KM Oblits to non-KM Oblits and decrease the Crit contribution even more. (? Need more research on this)


Haste mainly decreases the crit contribution (still not very significantly though) because it doesn't affect your diseases. Thus KM obliterates which do not profit from additional crit become a larger portion of your total damage.

Similarly haste slightly decreases the mastery contribution because diseases benefit from 50% of your mastery (frost fever does, blood plague doesn't) whereas the abilities that scale with haste (mainly obliterate, auto attack, frost strike) benefit less from mastery.

Obviously the same would be true the other way round in both cases, i.e. crit and mastery decrease the haste contribution slightly as they benefit those abilities that don't scale with haste more than they benefit abilities that scale with haste.

Edit: Some Simcraft results using 641 PvP gear (slightly mastery heavy), a standard frost PvP spec, a helter skelter (movement heavy) fight with PvP enabled for 413 and 1413 haste respectively:
Low haste: Str 1.00 | AP 0.70 | Haste 0.38 | Versatility 0.38 | Mastery 0.28 | Multistrike 0.22 | Crit 0.17
High haste: Str 1.00 | AP 0.69 | Haste 0.38 | Versatility 0.38 | Mastery 0.28 | Multistrike 0.22 | Crit 0.17

DPS increased by 6.37% going from 413 to 1413 haste but stat values barely changed as you can see. AP is slightly less valuable compared to Str because higher haste results in higher FC uptime. Otherwise you'd have to look at further decimal places to see the effects I described previously.

Edited by Hidden, 29 December 2014 - 08:56 AM.

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#17 Flakkar

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 03:44 PM

Very interesting. I wasn't able to test any of the interactions between stats because it's so complex, which is why I put the (?) marks. Thanks a lot for your input, I will adjust my post accordingly.


On a different note, I found a discrepancy in the way Haste is calculated on the in-game stat sheet. With no armor on I have 15.50% Haste during the day and 16.65% at night (because I'm a NE). This should show 15% and 16% respectively due to Unholy Aura and Icy Talons, but it looks like some multiplication is going on that I can't explain. In addition, my Icy Talons passive shows 6% more Haste from all sources instead of 5%. Either there's a UI bug, or Frost DKs are getting more bonuses to Haste than is immediately evident. If anyone knows what's up with this I'd be very interested to find out.
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#18 chemtrail420

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 06:16 PM

Edit: Some Simcraft results using 641 PvP gear (slightly mastery heavy), a standard frost PvP spec, a helter skelter (movement heavy) fight with PvP enabled for 413 and 1413 haste respectively:
Low haste: Str 1.00 | AP 0.70 | Haste 0.38 | Versatility 0.38 | Mastery 0.28 | Multistrike 0.22 | Crit 0.17
High haste: Str 1.00 | AP 0.69 | Haste 0.38 | Versatility 0.38 | Mastery 0.28 | Multistrike 0.22 | Crit 0.17

DPS increased by 6.37% going from 413 to 1413 haste but stat values barely changed as you can see. AP is slightly less valuable compared to Str because higher haste results in higher FC uptime. Otherwise you'd have to look at further decimal places to see the effects I described previously.

Is there any significance to haste and versatility having the same weight in your simulation or was the simulation purely an attempt to find interactions between haste and the other stats?
I understand that the simulation shows that versatility maintains the same comparative value on the two different levels of haste, but does it also show that haste and versatility are equally beneficial to dps, as opposed to what is stated in the OP?
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#19 Flakkar

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 06:35 PM

I have made a big update (blue text), and am in progress of investigating further. Apparently Haste is getting much bigger multipliers than we thought, or we have a UI bug.
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#20 Hidden

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Posted 29 December 2014 - 08:46 PM

Is there any significance to haste and versatility having the same weight in your simulation or was the simulation purely an attempt to find interactions between haste and the other stats?
I understand that the simulation shows that versatility maintains the same comparative value on the two different levels of haste, but does it also show that haste and versatility are equally beneficial to dps, as opposed to what is stated in the OP?


For the given scenario (somewhat heavy movement), these weightings should be fairly reliable. Especially the haste value, however, benefits from high uptime as haste doesn't reduce GCD so you'll be GCD capped and barely benefit from haste if you're not on the target very often. So depending on how high your uptime is, haste can be better or worse than shown in those weightings.

I have made a big update (blue text), and am in progress of investigating further. Apparently Haste is getting much bigger multipliers than we thought, or we have a UI bug.


Unholy Aura and Icy Talons apply multiplicatively to your total haste: (100% + haste on gear) * UA * IT. This is common knowledge and doesn't really change anything about the weightings though as other stats benefit just as much from those haste buffs. If it was additive, it would devalue haste somewhat as you'd have a relative x / 1.15 benefit instead of a x / 1.0 benefit at 0 haste rating already.

Edited by Hidden, 29 December 2014 - 08:51 PM.

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