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Reasoning behind Ret stat priority

ret pally paladin stats priority

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#1 SartWoW

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Posted 14 December 2014 - 10:56 PM

Hey guys,

From what I've read in Vanguards' Ret-guide, Rets go Haste over Mastery in PvP? Can someone explain to me why, since for example in PvE, Mastery is a higher DpS stat than Haste right now. I could think it's because in PvP there is obviously less uptime on the target so the reduced CD and GCD on the spells is worth more than a plain dmg increase?

Already thanks for your replies.
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#2 Animefreak3K

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 11:54 AM

Hiho,

i've done a Video (Beta) were i explained the Stats ;) .



It was my first voice-record, so i'm sorry that i wasn't talking loud enough :/ .

Hope this will helps you a bit more to understand the stats.
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#3 SartWoW

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 12:08 PM

I appreciate your comment and that you took the time to make videos for beginners, but it doesn't really answer my question.

I know what the stats do, what I ask is: What is the reason Rets highest PvE dps stat (mastery) is only second to Haste in PvP, while it receives no nerfs in PvP like Crit and Multistrike do.
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#4 Dahjy

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 12:16 PM

Its for quicker globals
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#5 SartWoW

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 12:24 PM

Its for quicker globals


I repeat: I know what the stats do :P I want to know what makes Haste outshine Mastery as a dps stat in PvP. There has to be some reasoning behind it. Is it because you have a lower uptime on your target in PvP, that the reduced CD/GCD provides higher DpS during the short time that you're on your target, than mastery would?
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#6 Animefreak3K

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 04:39 PM

Vanguards' guides says: Versatility, not Haste.

My Video is not for beginners ;) .
Sure, it's just explaining what the stats do, but i also give information what you can to with them.
In most cases, you can give yourself the answer^^.

If you know how the stats work, i have no idea, what could be "hidden".
If there is something, that i didn't know, i would like to know - too ;) .
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#7 SartWoW

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 05:58 PM

Vanguards' guides says: Versatility, not Haste.

My Video is not for beginners ;) .
Sure, it's just explaining what the stats do, but i also give information what you can to with them.
In most cases, you can give yourself the answer^^.

If you know how the stats work, i have no idea, what could be "hidden".
If there is something, that i didn't know, i would like to know - too ;) .


Holy shit...

I'm talking about offensive stats obviously... I know versatility is best for Rets, but I didn't ask for "the best stat", I asked for the REASONING behind the stat PRIORITY. Aka, is the reason for the priority being Vers > Haste > Mastery, when Mastery is (in PvE conditions) better for dps than Haste, that you have less uptime on your target making the reduced GCDs more worthy?
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#8 Jbar2006

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Posted 15 December 2014 - 09:17 PM

Holy shit...

I'm talking about offensive stats obviously... I know versatility is best for Rets, but I didn't ask for "the best stat", I asked for the REASONING behind the stat PRIORITY. Aka, is the reason for the priority being Vers > Haste > Mastery, when Mastery is (in PvE conditions) better for dps than Haste, that you have less uptime on your target making the reduced GCDs more worthy?


Vanguard's guide says Haste = Mastery. Both are great stats following Vers. 2 important things haste does - 1. lower GCD = more damage during wings/HA where you have 0 ability down time. This is huge considering you'll probably be going for a kill or major cd's during this time. Our non-wings dps isn't the best so don't focus on haste boosting that side of it. 2. Ret is kind of a wonky support class. We need to heal and throw hands in a timely manner. That fraction of a second off of doing supporty stuff can be the difference in your team mate landing a kill or freeing your heals from the CC chain o' death.

Tl;dr - Haste = more damage during wings/HA and is good for utility.
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#9 Wutangrza

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 04:45 PM

I tend to value mastery above haste in PvP personally, but not by a lot.

Mastery outperforms haste on a target dummy in PvE, and haste only gets worse the less uptime you have.

The reason people like haste so much is it increases your HP generation and one extra global during wings might mean a kill.

Honestly, stat priorities in PvP are never going to be as useful as they are on in PvE. PvP is just more dynamic and different things are going to be better in different situations. Knowing stat weights for your current gear set in PvE can help you make your own informed decision on which pieces to go for so long as you realize PvP != PvE and you can understand how the differences affect different stats in different ways in PvP.
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#10 SartWoW

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 05:48 PM

I tend to value mastery above haste in PvP personally, but not by a lot.

Mastery outperforms haste on a target dummy in PvE, and haste only gets worse the less uptime you have.

The reason people like haste so much is it increases your HP generation and one extra global during wings might mean a kill.

Honestly, stat priorities in PvP are never going to be as useful as they are on in PvE. PvP is just more dynamic and different things are going to be better in different situations. Knowing stat weights for your current gear set in PvE can help you make your own informed decision on which pieces to go for so long as you realize PvP != PvE and you can understand how the differences affect different stats in different ways in PvP.


Yeah I know that its rarely gonna make the cut if you go for stat x or y. I've just always liked min/maxing my chars ;) thanks for all the information to everyone though.
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#11 Nardogord

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 01:01 PM

Would it mean you'd go full versatility rather than getting 2 and 4P?
I think 2P isn't that much a thing now regarding recent nerfs and 4P could be outmatched by stacking vers.
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#12 Jbar2006

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 06:12 PM

Would it mean you'd go full versatility rather than getting 2 and 4P?
I think 2P isn't that much a thing now regarding recent nerfs and 4P could be outmatched by stacking vers.


Just a rough guestimate - the vers would probably not net the 4-set bonus damage as you also have to consider losing a full stat in place of that versatility. You probably get stuck with a bit more crit/multistrike too and the mastery stat looks like a wash. Basically - you'd probably lose damage to gain a bit of mitigation. The 4 set is pretty darn good - especially during burst cycles. This might change in the future, but for the time being I'll probably rock the 4 set.
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#13 Gigana

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 12:23 AM

Might as well ask this here.

RNG colliseum/RBGs gave me shoulders & hands, neither of which are set pieces. They aren't the versatility pieces, but rather haste/mastery/multistrike.

My question is, do you guys the 4/5 set bonus is good enough to justify using blue pieces instead of these two? I don't think it is seeing as the ilvl difference isn't as massive in instanced PvP as it is in world, but I thought what the hell I'll just ask here.
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#14 Animefreak3K

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 09:38 AM

Epic > all
Even it you stack on Stat, epic Items have +15 Itemlevel, which is kinda huge.
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#15 Regent

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 09:48 AM

Versatility > Mastery > Haste > Multistrike > Crit

Crit might be higher priority based on comp and how lucky you consider yourself to be.

Edited by Regent, 18 December 2014 - 09:53 AM.

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#16 Noodlejuice

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 01:03 PM

Vanguards actually prefers mastery to haste, if you read his guide it says haste=mastery, not haste>mastery. He uses the mastery enchant on weapon over haste.

What can make haste really good, is for faster globals to get bubble, bop and freedoms off faster. If you use a global when you need them. The difference is crazy small though, So i'd just get as much mastery as possible, after versatility.
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#17 Wutangrza

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 06:55 PM

4 set bonus is pretty huge. It's close to a 9% flat damage increase if you have decent uptime on your target, I'd never break it personally.
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#18 Feliclandelo

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 07:19 PM

Some pretty shitty answers in here, I must say.

First of all, Vanguards just updated his 6.0 guide as far as I know, it needs a major revamp (I'm not doing it). Secondly of all, PvP dps can actually be simulated by using the options provided within the simcraft tool to simulate a single target fight with lots of movement involved and probably a lower skill level (to account for clunky rotations and cc).

Secondly, most answers here are super retarded (not trying to offend anyone but it took forever to actually get a semi decent answer). Claiming haste does more damage during wings because you get more globals over mastery is pointless. Mastery increases your damage in general, so the 1 hit you might end up losing won't matter, because your other attacks hit for 5% more in general (made the numbers up, don't take it literally).

Thirdly, mastery is our best offensive stat by far for damage output. If you feel like you're a mong and have trouble spending your globals right, empowered seals would be recommended. Going from 5% haste to 10% haste won't fix that lag in your brain. You want to go mastery every place possible, for cleaving and for pressure (also when wings are not up, we can actually do damage this expansion off cds - I don't use HA for example, and getting 3xprocs back to back with DP is absolutely destroying people with FV).

Fourthly, haste is only comparable somewhat to mastery until you hit the 15% raidbuffed mark (10% if you play with a partner that provides haste), after that there is simply no discussion what to go with.

Fifthly, don't break 4set. The damage increase is probably worth 10-20 iLvl's across and the CC reduction can be used together with freedom to avoid CC proactively. Pair this with any talent except SW and it's a flat damage increase, which is up honestly quite often when you're on your target.

Lastly, versatility might be a decent stat for survivability (it acts like resilience) but it is absolutely dog for damage. Crit and multistrike are already behind mastery and haste (until 15%) and are nerfed even further in PvP (1,5xcrit modifier and only 1 roll on multristrike). Get versatility where you can, but go for mastery.
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#19 Zqae

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 09:33 AM

Agreed with Felic, Haste is not as valuable as Mastery IMO, you're going to get kited/cc'd at least a bit and Haste's whole point is wasted every second you're not on your target.

Also Ret's strongest point is by far its burst and guess what Mastery lets you burst even harder, rather than faster like Haste would.
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