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What would you do to help Arms?

Arms WoD

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#1 Mostvp71

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 04:38 AM

Hi guys, was thinking of some ways arms could possibly be changed to be more efficient, some of them might be a little over the edge but here are some things I was thinking of, what would you do to fix the spec?

Overpower 5(or 10) rage: Same way it was pre-WoD patch, but this time it'll gain stacks as rend ticks. The current Whirlwind filler is just completely useless, it hits for almost nothing and cant even kill totems etc. This needs to be fixed and I feel alot of people will agree with me on this.
Taste for Blood: The 3 rage for rend tick is just underwhelming compared to Sudden Death and is just not enough rage to out damage sudden death. Maybe buff it for Overpower to hit harder when a rend ticks while gaining 5 rage per tick if not just leave the 3 rage.

Shield Wall: This has been a key to arms warriors suriviability, and tbqh Die by the Sword just doesnt cut it. Prot warriors currently get way more survivability and do as much if not more damage then an arms warrior.

Siegebreaker: This talent is almost completely useless and feels like a filler talent. Not only does it replace fear, it also knocks back the person making it easier to be kited etc. Just making it do a knockdown or just making it so it does damage without a knockdown/replacing fear would make it significanly better.
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#2 Speedymart

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 05:17 AM

We've talked about all of this already months ago


Just wait for 6.1 and see what happens. We've given them endless emounts of feedback already. There's nothing left to discuss.
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#3 ~Invictus

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 07:53 AM

Given that Geforce is right, we could take this thread as an exercise in wishful thinking.

I think we can all agree that Arms' changes can be split in two different "ifs":

If Arms' design is to stay as it is,
then we need a minor number of stuff targeted to counter downtime and resource wasting
  • Shouts reverted as Rage generators, since Arms has literally no way to generate Rage on demand, and this prevents downtime since it's tied to a global regardless;
  • Giving Heroic Strike to Arms to open up an effective Rage dump. Sitting on 40 Rage pooling for procs is a gameplay that's unfeasible in PvP, capping Rage hurts your damage immensely and being globalcapped during Colossus is not fun;
  • Colossus Smash, Charge and Spell Reflection could be added into Anger Management to improve synergy, Arms only;
  • Getting back Shield Wall, since the current Blood Craze is god awful and cannot solve the issue. We need a button that can act as a defensive and does not get dpsd through because it doesn't matter. Die by the Sword per se has been designed as an offensive/ defensive cd, and is not as potent as the alternatives;
  • Charge stun needs to return, avoidance being still in the game in outrageous forms like 30s Evasions makes playing a Warrior the most opposite thing to fun I can possibly describe.
  • Slam needs to scale with Mastery.
    The 45 level tier leaves us no choice since Sudden Death realistically is the only thing that gives pressure in a PvP scenario.
I'd add that in the current iteration, simply bringing back Inner Rage would do wonders for the spec's consistency. But let's stick to Blizzard not wanting to bring back things and simply mashing spells from the class as they are.

If Arms' design is to change,
then the changes are to be drastic and most of what Arms received in the past has to return.
  • First and foremost give Arms a fun theme to play with. If we are the spec that must be untied from Enrages, then give us something to play with. Arms has to scrape most glyphs due to it lacking enrages, make it so it's worth;
  • In the self healing tier, make Second Wind as it was prior to MoP. As it stands it's good for soloing alone and there's no real choice since Enraged Regeneration is the only choice that can be made both for PvP and PvE, and doesn't really do much either;
  • Revert the Blood Craze change and return it to Arms and Fury alike.
  • In the 45 level tier, change Slam with Overpower, make it proc off Rend ticks every 5 seconds for 110% weapon damage, make it scale with Mastery and call it a day;
  • Bring back Overpower and make it do meaningful damage, take the spammy nature it got in MoP away forever, it's not what the strike was meant to be in the first place. Tie it to Rend;
  • Bring back Piercing Howl. it's stupid not to have it.
    I shouldn't be forced not to play with a Mage because everything I do breaks his stuff.
  • Give Arms a proper Rage generator. Bring back Inner Rage, bring back Bloodrage, but do not make MS generate Rage: its usage is to do damage and at the moment it does the job amazingly;
  • Charge stun needs to return. I can't stress this enough: in a game where everyone has freedoms or blinks, we cannot be left in the very center of a map to wander while painfully trying to reach a target. Arms shouldn't pay the price of adding a third gapcloser to Protection.
That's all we need in my opinion, given both scenarios.
To be honest I'd rather go with the first set of changes, just adding Overpower to it. Current Arms can be good if the downtime is properly tackled.
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#4 Gowan

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Posted 20 November 2014 - 09:16 PM

just came back to the game after over 3 years cant believe what they've done to arms :(

Edited by Gowan, 20 November 2014 - 09:19 PM.

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#5 Zentrifuge

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 07:27 AM

I liked 5.4 arms, so I'd take that back.
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#6 Braindance

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 09:25 PM

Arms style is perfect as is. The only things that need to change imo:
  • Whirlwind should not be the filler of the rotation. Affected by abilities like feint etc on top of breaking cc
  • Charge should stun again instead of this pathetic root
  • Defensives are trash - buff
However, after the longest time, arms feels the way it should be. You hit once every few seconds and it really hurts, not 100 times per second and tickle. For me, this is good design. Cataclysm and MoP where a disaster because they removed that type of playstyle - if I wanted to cuddle enemies with a frequency of 1000 Hz I would have rolled a lock not a warrior.
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#7 scarzzz

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 11:33 PM

Except i doesnt even hurt...
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#8 ~Invictus

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 11:35 PM

Define perfect.
Do you find "perfect" having to Rend just because you need Rend else you do less damage?
Because by all ends and means this kind of makes us Death Knigths, barring the fact that Rend is out of our context and diseases are a core part of their design.

EDIT
And Gladstance and Fury both hit harder than Arms anyway, barring sub20 Executes.
Good luck pushing someone in the 20% range without some random ass rng tho.
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#9 Pouncedd

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Posted 21 November 2014 - 11:40 PM

Heroic strike needs to come back. Arms defensive cds need to be SLIGHTLY better.

Everything else is completely fine. Including charge.
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#10 Pinka

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 03:17 AM

From spending much more hours in Ashran and now the tarren mill vs southshore bg arms feels about right. It makes quick work of people.
Even from 1v1 or even 2v1 points of view it feels fine to me. Especially vs the glad stance hype boys that go all in and think they are invincible.
What i did notice is that the 4 set bonus helps a lot with staying alive with shield barrier.

Who rlly cares about whirlwind. It is a filler. Something to spend your rage on if you have enough of it. Atleast it has a second purpose.
Cs + Ms deals enough dmg to be viable. People act as if the 5 second cooldown Ms takes an eternity. The 2 set bonus is huge to make burst.
For me charge doesn't have to stun either there is already enough stuns in the game.

And about execute. What are ppl talking about. Arms execute is the strongest of all the specs. You don't have to wait for 30 rage to finish someone off. Just do it right off the bat. And if you see the 20% comming you can always save some extra rage just to execute straight through their defensives as if they do not exist.

Rend? Why hate on it. It's a bleed that also enhances your auto attacks if applied. It ticks pretty hard. Good vs those armored targets to atleast have a bleed. It has a goal. And makes more sence then having another does % of weapon damage strike.

First concern is the thunder clap range. Due to lag it hardly seems to hit people running away from you unless you force yourself to take the glyph. Which is pretty dumb.

Second concern is. Buff slam. To have it compete or even be a lower dps then whirlwind makes the talent completely useless. To all the overpower boys that want this back. All they have to do is to buff slam to be competitive and you got your new overpower.

Requireing to have rend applied to proc overpower only gets you into these annoying scenarios. Especially vs those people you want to finish off fast but have to spend a global extra on cause you want your overpower proc. No sorry. We have had our clunky rotation in Cataclysm. Rather not see it back.

Tbh make the third slam deal more dmg for the same rage cost. So that CS>Ms>3x slam becomes a thing if succesful. You get awared for the extra stack if you have the uptime on the target and saved the rage. This will make managing rage much more important. The 3x slam should feel you are hammering someone like a nail into wood or making some kind of combo breaker. Not 3 bitchslaps.
And this also makes the rotation less boring without going into the clunky have to apply X first in order to do Y bullcrap.

Oh and no need to heroic strike either. The part on managing rage is to think ahead. If you feel you are getting a lot in the future you should have spent it earlier. Giving arms a off gcd strike only makes them too bursty and force blizz to nerf MS. Which should never happen. + there is always the option to spend your rage on a shield barrier when sitting in a root or right before your planning to charge in.

As for defensives. Maybe make shield barrier heal the warrior for a % of the left over absorb if it manages to last over the 6 second. This will make shield barrier feel less wasted if not touched by damage. And gives warriors to heal themselves atleast a bit without blowing a cooldown. And it will not be spammabe as you have to wait the full duration to recieve the heal. Once again. If you have enough rage you will have more chance to have the absorb last till the last second and recieve the heal. This makes a warrior that knows when to pull back and recover much better. And the ability not being able to used as some kind of second wind / conversion.

Sorry for the wall of text. But i just think there are more simple options to tweak the spec without making them shit annoying or op for others to fight against.

Edited by Pinka, 22 November 2014 - 03:38 AM.

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#11 ~Invictus

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 03:31 AM

I'm sorry, I tried aswell, but I don't see how Arms can be considered viable with the amounts of freedoms and slows in the game and Charge rooting the target.
Rage management has always been part of the class, I don't see how this makes a point.

And Overpower is not "overpower qq" just cause. I mean, don't you feel royally boned by any parry or dodge that occurs? Lining everything in a Storm Bolt isn't always the most optimal thing to do.
We should have a single target filler added in our base kit, not needing to spec into one, I find this the most mind boggling thing ever.

The damage may be there, Execute is something that we can't complain about, but - and I'm being honest here - I can't see how you can tell me with a straight face that Arms is fine.
It feels like an unfinished product the more I play with it, and (I'm going to bold this part to let it sink in) I can't see Arms competing with Gladstance in any way, given that Gladstance has three gapclosers more than Arms has, baseline, barring racials and Enraged Speed (that can be used way more efficiently by Fury and Glad/Prot than Arms due to Arms not having an enrage anymore for god knows why).
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#12 Pinka

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 03:48 AM

I'm sorry, I tried aswell, but I don't see how Arms can be considered viable with the amounts of freedoms and slows in the game and Charge rooting the target.
Rage management has always been part of the class, I don't see how this makes a point.

And Overpower is not "overpower qq" just cause. I mean, don't you feel royally boned by any parry or dodge that occurs? Lining everything in a Storm Bolt isn't always the most optimal thing to do.
We should have a single target filler added in our base kit, not needing to spec into one, I find this the most mind boggling thing ever.

The damage may be there, Execute is something that we can't complain about, but - and I'm being honest here - I can't see how you can tell me with a straight face that Arms is fine.
It feels like an unfinished product the more I play with it, and (I'm going to bold this part to let it sink in) I can't see Arms competing with Gladstance in any way, given that Gladstance has three gapclosers more than Arms has, baseline, barring racials and Enraged Speed (that can be used way more efficiently by Fury and Glad/Prot than Arms due to Arms not having an enrage anymore for god knows why).


I agree on the mobility part. Strangely both glad and fury are more mobile then arms. Even if the spec clearly states Mobility in the tooltip. All they could do is to give arms a speed buff on its own. Perhaps when rend is applied on a target you move 10% faster. This can make fun things happen like rending pets just to get faster to their masters. Or make you catch up when they disengage/ blink right after your first global. (most likely rend)

Edited by Pinka, 22 November 2014 - 03:51 AM.

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#13 ~Invictus

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 05:04 AM

I'd be most happy with the merge of Hamstring and Rend to be honest, and make it so that the slow is valuable.

I mean, I'd rather not be back in a Cataclysm scenario in which we're good but everything else is overtuned, because that's what's panning out as of now: damage is there, damage is good, uptime is not there.
And I state again that Arms feels like a toy that's not been completely shaped out yet. There's something amiss, and in PvE the thing is way more apparent.
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#14 Ezyo1000

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 05:27 PM

As for defensives. Maybe make shield barrier heal the warrior for a % of the left over absorb if it manages to last over the 6 second. This will make shield barrier feel less wasted if not touched by damage. And gives warriors to heal themselves atleast a bit without blowing a cooldown. And it will not be spammabe as you have to wait the full duration to recieve the heal. Once again. If you have enough rage you will have more chance to have the absorb last till the last second and recieve the heal. This makes a warrior that knows when to pull back and recover much better. And the ability not being able to used as some kind of second wind / conversion.

Sorry for the wall of text. But i just think there are more simple options to tweak the spec without making them shit annoying or op for others to fight against.


For barrier i honestly don't think it should heal, it would be alot better if it simply absorbed more then actually healing. it fits the theme of warriors too. we have some of the best mitigation due to our cds and d stance. out of the plate classes, ret should have decent heals/off heals, dks should have decent self healing, and warriors should be able to have decent mitigation.

Right now barrier feels incredibly weak, for 60 rage you get a tiny absorb that gets burned through with 1 attack and it feels like you wasted rage and got nothing in return. It really should be based off our max hp. it would make it so you could give off offensive power in exchange for some defensive power (since its a large chunk of rage for the strongest absorb, you should get equal benefit from it) but of course in order to do this it would require a cd, something short like a 6-10 sec cd to prevent it from being spammable (gives enemies a reward for getting through the absorb) while also allowing for it to receive a buff.
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