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Hunter Stat Valuation & Pet Guide [WoD]


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#21 baggylol

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 02:02 PM

sry double post
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#22 Kettu

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 02:54 PM

Imagine a situation where you would have 6000 points worth of 6 different stats to choose from, 5 of them being equally good and one, lets say crit, is 10% better than all the rest. As in,

1000 crit rating = 11% more damage
1000 stat X = 10% more damage
1000 stat Y = 10% more damage
1000 stat Z = 10% more damage
1000 stat A = 10% more damage
1000 stat B = 10% more damage

Like, in this situation, if you asked what stat to go for from any rank 1 player, gladiator level player, rivalduelist, whoever, 99,9% of them would tell you to stack crit rating because, well, it's the best stat, 10% better than all the other stats. If I asked you, you probably would've answered the same.

If your dps was 1000, and you took 6000 crit rating, your dps would increase by (6 x 11% = 66%) to 1660 dps.

Whereas in reality, if you simply took 1000 worth of each stat, your dps would actually increase by (11% x 10% x 10% x 10% x 10% x 10% = 78,7%) to 1787 dps.

This is basically the question of multistrike vs crit vs haste.

By telling people you feel crit is superior and you should stack it, you're kinda telling people 1660 > 1787. Not that I really care if you feel you're right and manage to convince people 1660 > 1787, you're doing me a favor by dropping the entire pvp hunter population's dps to roughly 8% below my dps, which will kinda give me an advantage over all of you guys. Sure, the numbers are all made up, but you probably get the point.

So my advice would kinda be:

1. If someone asks you "what is best stat", tell him he should instead be asking what is optimal gear combination for this season.
2. If you ask someone "what is best stat", and they tell you "stat X = best, stack it, lol", you probably shouldn't take advice from them.
3. If you see someone saying they feel stat X > stat Y from playing 2 games of skirmish or they noticed it by looking at recount after the game, well, you probably shouldn't be taking advice from them either.
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#23 Pysclone625

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Posted 08 December 2014 - 08:52 PM

Imagine a situation where you would have 6000 points worth of 6 different stats to choose from, 5 of them being equally good and one, lets say crit, is 10% better than all the rest. As in,

1000 crit rating = 11% more damage
1000 stat X = 10% more damage
1000 stat Y = 10% more damage
1000 stat Z = 10% more damage
1000 stat A = 10% more damage
1000 stat B = 10% more damage

Like, in this situation, if you asked what stat to go for from any rank 1 player, gladiator level player, rivalduelist, whoever, 99,9% of them would tell you to stack crit rating because, well, it's the best stat, 10% better than all the other stats. If I asked you, you probably would've answered the same.

If your dps was 1000, and you took 6000 crit rating, your dps would increase by (6 x 11% = 66%) to 1660 dps.

Whereas in reality, if you simply took 1000 worth of each stat, your dps would actually increase by (11% x 10% x 10% x 10% x 10% x 10% = 78,7%) to 1787 dps.

First of all, you used the impossible and most extreme scenario of having all crit and no other stats.

Secondly, it doesn't matter anyways because you can't simplify it like this because there are far more variables involved.

Your math is technically correct, but your conclusion is wrong. Just using your example, look at these numbers...

1760 crit rating = 19.33% more damage
848 stat X = 8.48% more damage
848 stat Y = 8.48% more damage
848 stat Z = 8.48% more damage
848 stat A = 8.48% more damage
848 stat B = 8.48% more damage

1.1933 * 1.0848 *
1.0848 * 1.0848 * 1.0848 * 1.0848 = 1793.1 dps, which is > 1787.7 dps.

Not only is this an increase in dps, it's also a lot more bursty.

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To expand on your example, imagine what happens when a couple stats are just slightly more/less desirable, such as...

Stat X = 12% more damage
Stat Y = 11% more damage
Stat Z = 10% more damage
Stat A = 10% more damage
Stat B = 9% more damage
Stat C = 8% more damage

Then, the optimal stat distribution is...


3379 crit rating = 40.55% more damage
2621 stat X = 28.83% more damage
0 stat Y = 0% more damage
0 stat Z = 0% more damage
0 stat A = 0% more damage
0 stat B = 0% more damage

1.4055 * 1.2883 * 1 * 1 * 1 * 1 = 1810.7 dps >> 1770.9 dps (which is 1000 in each stat)

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In the end, these numbers aren't much good in my opinion because all of your abilities, buffs, debuffs, situations (moving, cooldowns, etc) will GREATLY change all these variables.
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#24 Kettu

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 12:08 AM


It's pretty easy to compare crit and multistrike, technically both are crits but the other does slightly less damage. MM hunters start with 1650 stat points of crit rating by default (15% passive crit), on top of this you have roughly 2400 worth of stat points with end-season gear to allocate between crit, multistrike and haste. Lets leave haste out of this and lets say you put 50% into crit and 50% into multistrike to see which one is better.

100 Multistrike is 0,45% more damage, 100 Crit rating is 0,475% more damage (With Lethal Shots). I quess you can agree with everything up to this point.

1650 Crit rating + 1200 Crit rating = 2850 crit rating
2850 crit rating = 25,935% crit chance
25,935% crit chance x 0,475 = 12,32% more damage

1200 Multistrike = 18,12% Multistrike chance
18,12% multistrike chance x 0,45 = 5,44% more damage

1,1232 x 1,0544 = 18,425% more damage

Same calculation with 1300 multistrike and 1100 crit rating -> 18,476% more damage
Same calculation with 2100 multistrike and 300 crit rating -> 18,744% more damage (This is pretty close to optimum)

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Even in your case, as a dwarf, multistrike comes on top of crit rating. You can check this by replacing the 0,475 with 0,49686 (0,475 x 1,02).

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I simply don't see how it's possible to argue against this, even the consistency / burst point of view seems irrelevant as both stats are nearly identical. Your burst is simply higher by stacking multistrike. There isn't a single possible situation where you'd do more damage by having more crit rating than multistrike.

Besides, all of these crit vs multistrike calculations are done assuming careful aim doesn't exist. If you take careful aim into account (which you probably should), compared to multistrike, it'd be optimal to have zero crit rating.
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#25 jidakra

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 12:10 AM

Especially considering that your main (hardest) burst consists of aimed shot spam while toth is up during rapidfire.

You dont need crit there.

What you need is multistrike since the multistrikes of your aimedshots get the bonus-crit from rapidfire as well.

Case closed. Multistrike > crit. Haste hard to calculate.
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#26 Swiftdeus

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 03:48 PM

With all this in mind, Versatility being what you want the most, you'll want to buy the conquest gear with the reputation requirement from Ashran (Farmable in about 4 hours). That retricts the last pieces (Cloak/Rings/Neck/Trinkets) so it will have minimal impact whether you choose haste,critical, or mastery. It also restricks the amount of Multistrike you can get, and if Multistrike > Crit, should we not be using the Missle Splitter Scope over the Megawatt Filament? I guess you could also put Hemet's Scope in there who are crazy for Mastery.
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#27 FearAndArrogance

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 03:58 PM

What I want to know is why you think keeping up the MM mastery as something that can be taken as a given.

I am going to use 80% uptime on sniper training as the break even calculated from comparing mastery to multistrike, which is the conservative stat comparison. IE ..45/.55 ~= 82%

If we are talking about sustained damage, you would need to keep up sniper training about 80% of the time to beat the other stats. To me (and granted I am not an elite arena player), this seems highly unfeasible.

Now if we are talking about bursting someone, I think it is also hard to believe that you will have it up for 80% (and this would only be a break even point) of your burst without aspect of the fox which is on a 3 minute CD. Whereas more likely you will want to do burst combos about every minute with your on use trinkets.

What are your thoughts on this? Even at a high level of skill it seems to me that it would be difficult to make mastery work better than the other stats.
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#28 Swiftdeus

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Posted 09 December 2014 - 04:09 PM

@FearAndArrogance,
Understandable what you are saying. Unfortunatly gear forces you to use mastery, and the only question you really have to decide is:

Prowess(Haste) VS Cruelty(Crit) (Items are Mastery Haste vs Mastery Crit)

Everything else has basically been decided for you. Keeping Sniper training up is going to be hard, but it will need to be done.
Option B is going something that utilizes Mastery more like BM where the stat is more beneficial to that specialization.

This basically comes down to 267 Haste or Crit, 2.42% Crit or 2.67% Haste.

Also Scope? Multistrike?
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#29 Dills

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Posted 10 December 2014 - 08:01 AM

Just an fyi sniper training increases critical strike damage, not your critical strike chance - seems like a lot of people misread that.

Edited by Dills, 10 December 2014 - 08:02 AM.

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the only hunter i approve of is dillypoo. the remainder of hunters' existence offends me to my core. when i wake up, i am troubled that in some parts of the world, there are other humans who still partake in slavery, sex trafficking, and hunter playing on world of warcraft


Posted Image

did you ever get round to taking it? It's actually the best free site i've found :)

Gonna take that as you flopped hard and couldn't get near my score with repeated tries :)


#30 Ellastard

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Posted 10 December 2014 - 07:07 PM

With all this in mind, Versatility being what you want the most, you'll want to buy the conquest gear with the reputation requirement from Ashran (Farmable in about 4 hours). That retricts the last pieces (Cloak/Rings/Neck/Trinkets) so it will have minimal impact whether you choose haste,critical, or mastery. It also restricks the amount of Multistrike you can get, and if Multistrike > Crit, should we not be using the Missle Splitter Scope over the Megawatt Filament? I guess you could also put Hemet's Scope in there who are crazy for Mastery.


Are you talking about giving up the set bonus by using the entire complement of rep gear, or simply replacing 1 of 5 of the set pieces?
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#31 Isuumi

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Posted 16 December 2014 - 12:02 AM

Interesting guide, very helpful to get my stats prio as a Survival Hunter for now (meta is unpredictable).

For Survival Hunters:
Multishot is even more valuable as we get 136% damage each proc (+crit possibility)
Mastery is ofc good and would need some calculations.
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#32 Kettu

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 05:52 PM

Updated the guide
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#33 Isuumi

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Posted 17 December 2014 - 11:26 PM

Nice move
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#34 Immortalz

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Posted 18 December 2014 - 12:53 PM

Could you tell us what are the best gear pieces to get for each spec? thanks =)
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#35 Azeda

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 03:37 PM

Kettux, I hope to get a solid reply on this, as I'm starting to get confused. I am currently trying to gear to meet your suggested stats for Survival. However, a large part of the Hunter community over on the official forums seems to disagree largely with these findings. (I agree with you btw). Since I am unable to post links currently, I will paste in the parts that are confusing me:

Mastery (SV):
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How does it work?:

Essence of the Viper increases all magical damage you deal by X%.


This mastery is very simple and almost boring because of how passive it is. However, keep in mind that it only affects magical damage. Damaging abilities not affected by this mastery are Auto Shot, lvl 90 talents, Focusing Shot, Pets and AMoC. These abilities can sometimes be equal to 20%+ of your total damage. That means that this mastery doesn't affect 100% of your damage. You can not just look at it as a total damage increase. 1% Mastery = ~.8% Total Damage increase.

110 Mastery rating = 1% Mastery
660 Mastery rating = 6% Mastery
6% Mastery = 6% Magic Damage increase = 4.8% Total damage increase


So What?:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you made it this far, thank you for reading! I hope you are enjoying this post and have learned something about our class. However, the big question is, "So What?" We have all this information now what do we do with it? We theorycraft!
Stat: @~660 Rating
Multistrike --- 3% Total Damage increase

Critical Chance --- 3% Total Damage increase

Versatility --- 5% Total Damage increase
2.5% Damage reduction

Haste --- x% Total Damage increase

Mastery (MM) --- 3% Damage increase
3% Crit Damage increase

Mastery (SV) --- 4.8% Total Damage increase


Mastery (BM) --- 8.4% Total Damage increase


TL;DR:
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MM: Versa>Crit>MS>Mastery
SV: Versa>MS>Mastery>Crit
BM: Mastery>Versa>Crit>MS


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#36 Kettu

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 07:24 PM

Well it's kind of hard to say without knowing if those calculations are for PvE or PVP. I'll assume they are for PvP. Also, those quotes are taken out of context and I'm not sure what specs half of the numbers in the second quote represent.

Regarding the 1st quote, it seems about right. The guy assumes 80% of survi damage is magical damage, which I think is a slight overestimate. I'd estimate it to be somewhat closer to 70% in PvP. Regardless, when it comes to survival stat priority, it's irrelevant, as it doesn't bring mastery ahead of versatility nor behind multistrike.

Regarding the 2nd quote, I'll assume the stat valuations which haven't been marked with (SV) / (BM) / (MM) are all for survival, even though it seems like the guy has simply valued multistrike and crit as flat 3% damage increase for all specs, which makes no sense. For multistrike, 660 multistrike rating isn't 3% total damage increase. It seems the guy has forgotten to take into account that the bonus damage of multistrike is 20% higher as survival and survival hunters get 5% more multistrike from all sources.

Crit chance & Versatility values are correct. Survi mastery is correct if you assume 80% of your damage is magical damage. MM Mastery also seems about right. BM Mastery seems way off, it seems the guy has assumed 70% of your damage comes from your pet. That's basically equivalent to assuming: if you do 10000 dps, your pet does 23300 dps.

Regarding the 3rd quote, for survival I have no idea why multistrike is put ahead of mastery. First the guy calculates 4,8% > 3%. Then he lists it as 3% > 4,8%.
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#37 Azeda

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 07:28 PM

Well it's kind of hard to say without knowing if those calculations are for PvE or PVP. I'll assume they are for PvP. Also, those quotes are taken out of context and I'm not sure what specs half of the numbers in the second quote represent.

Regarding the 1st quote, it seems about right. The guy assumes 80% of survi damage is magical damage, which I think is a slight overestimate. I'd estimate it to be somewhat closer to 70% in PvP. Regardless, when it comes to survival stat priority, it's irrelevant, as it doesn't bring mastery ahead of versatility nor behind multistrike.

Regarding the 2nd quote, I'll assume the stat valuations which haven't been marked with (SV) / (BM) / (MM) are all for survival, even though it seems like the guy has simply valued multistrike and crit as flat 3% damage increase for all specs, which makes no sense. For multistrike, 660 multistrike rating isn't 3% total damage increase. It seems the guy has forgotten to take into account that the bonus damage of multistrike is 20% higher as survival and survival hunters get 5% more multistrike from all sources.

Crit chance & Versatility values are correct. Survi mastery is correct if you assume 80% of your damage is magical damage. MM Mastery also seems about right. BM Mastery seems way off, it seems the guy has assumed 70% of your damage comes from your pet. That's basically equivalent to assuming: if you do 10000 dps, your pet does 23300 dps.

Regarding the 3rd quote, for survival I have no idea why multistrike is put ahead of mastery. First the guy calculates 4,8% > 3%. Then he lists it as 3% > 4,8%.



Apologies on my sloppy quotes! Yes, they were for PvP, and yes, I only pasted parts pertaining to Surv. when you don't see it denoted as MM or BM. I know you're on the EU, meaning I'm not sure you can post on US servers, would just be nice to have somebody to set it straight as this is getting pushed as almost fact on the official.
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#38

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Posted 19 December 2014 - 11:48 PM

Kettux thank you very much for the maths done. It helps a lot. But could you tell me (according to your table) what will be the damage increase of 100 critical points if Im a dwarf and have 2% crit damage increase? I would be greatly thankful if you give an answer or explain me how does it count.
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#39 SH4D0WS1N

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 03:41 AM

Did I miss it or are none of your posts/calculations taking into account the Enhanced Aimed Shot perk? This perk gives you 20 focus back on Aimed Shot crits. In terms of raw damage per shot, you're right that multistrike pulls ahead of crit, however the additional focus back from critting makes it worth more than multistrike in overall damage done.

Also I don't play a hunter and I haven't watched Dillypoo stream since WoD dropped, but I heard mastery uptime is really low and it sounds like it's not a stat worth stacking and only a nice little bonus during burst if you can manage it.

EDIT: It's also worth looking into the value of crit falling back behind multistrike once you reach 40% (Careful Aim cap) or even worth less.
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#40 rageTG

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Posted 21 December 2014 - 04:11 AM

Kettu why do you place Crit over Haste as survival?

Based on sim with crit reduction applied it should be Agi > Vers > Mastery > Mult > Haste > Crit I think.
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