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My Thoughts on MoP PvP and the direction of WoD

Talbadar MoP WoD Thoughts Changes

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#21 Marshmellow

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 12:29 PM

I feel like some classes kept too much through the ability pruning, also some classes lost too much.

Rogues - getting to keep all of their cc even with the huge buff to their cc with the combo point change also burst of speed, I know alot of people didnt like tricks because of mage/rogue but it was a really cool mechanic in pvp, giving more incentive for setup damage.

Druids - every spec keeping the ability to shift snares and roots also having displacer beast. Feral losing barkskin was too much, ferals just flop in stuns at 100.

monks - I dont like that ww still has 2 aoe stuns. the change to karma making it 50% was too much. monk glyphs are an even bigger problem now as well. mw seems alright at 100, every monk just isnt used to being a viable kill target :)

dks - leaving them with 4 trinkets is a mistake

warriors- dont even know where to start, I logged on my warrior alt and the bars were completely empty

100% agree with Talb's post though, WoD is going to be really good if it keeps going the same direction

all the other classes seem pretty fair thought, shamans feel weak at 100
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#22 Lolflay

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 12:54 PM

^

Rogues - disagree. Rogues have the same, predictable skill set since 2004, you can't really remove anything without making the class feel unplayable ( sort of what they did to Warlocks and Warriors, those two classes don't feel like a Warr or Lock anymore rofl ). You can easily keep Rogues in check with % nerfs ( which is why in some seasons they're great because they do a lot of damage+can survive easily, or in some seasons they're shit because they don't do enough damage and are shit at surviving ). The only nerfs I can see in mechanical sense is putting a limit on how many times you can Cheap Shot during Subterfuge/Shadow Dance or shit like that, seeing I kind of agree that Rogues on 100 can CC an entire team if they decide to.

Druids - I agree.

Monks - I agree with Karma and stun parts, and they should just make Death and Karma Glyphs a perk or something.

DKs - agreed, what the fuck are they thinking, leaving them with Desecrated Ground, IBF and Lichborne ? Super hilarious.

Warriors - also agreed, I boosted a warrior to 90 in MoP to see how they are, and they were this easymode incarnation of their previous selfs, no skill needed to play one. Situation after 6.0 is even worse, there's going to be zero difference between a 3000 and a 2500 warr, and the only difference will be the partners they're playing with. It kind of feels sad to witness a class that actually took skill in past get devolved into a mindless piece of shit button masher arcade game in MoP/WoD. I remember facing people like Barburas and really noticing that they're actually good, behind all that retarded damage Warriors always had.
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#23 Ayato

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 12:58 PM

Good post.

Stuff like interrupt game coming back is a huge plus, but i feel like there's still alot of really stupid stuff left in the game which i fear they are not going to fix before a big patch: stuff like burst of speed or ice nova dont fit the playstyle they're trying to push with WoD at all.

Overall excited for WoD though!
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#24 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 01:08 PM

Ice nova unfortunately exactly fits their design goal for wod - they wanted to remove frost nova from mages so the class only has access to one single nova ability through a talent choice (making mages equal to shadow priests and elemental shamans in terms of roots), but it was too iconic an ability to just blanket remove, so they make the nova talents by far the most obvious option for pvp, but have those talents remove frost nova - mission accomplished, less melee vs mage forum complaints

From a Mage gameplay perspective, the nova talents will always feel like one of the dumbest changes they have ever made - from the perspective of people playing vs the mage, ice nova feels a hell of a lot less scary and more pathetic when it hits for 8% of the targets health at lvl 100, rather then the 30%+ it does today at lvl 90
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No because the difference is when I play a comp i play it close to skill cap

if anyone needs to be banned, it's you. You do nothing but sit on AJ being a passive aggressive idiot that nobody likes, sorry you stink of washing up liquid.

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)


#25 mirox

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 01:09 PM

I would like to point out that they have said that only feral druids would have faerie fire in wod, but then they forgot to revamp the faerie swarm talent and now claim it is working as intended.That is all.
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#26 Ayato

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 01:23 PM

Ice nova unfortunately exactly fits their design goal for wod

While I agree the single nova would fit the cc reduction goal, this is just a really dumb way to implement it.

Instead of a second nova, you have the single most hard hitting ability tied into an aoe stun, labeled as a freeze. Probably the most braindead ability ever. Promotes yolobursting every minute with orb + ice nova + instant cast spam.

If it provided a small root instead and didnt have all our dmg tied into, maybe it could work. Getting casts through when it's needed should reward damage, not this kind of braindead aids.
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#27 Gigana

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 01:26 PM

Agree with most of what the OP has said.

Personally, I'm 100% certain WoD is going to have its own share of retarded crap. It's just that - aside from the occasional good season (s10, yay) - that's how arena has always been. That being said, I still feel most of the changes made for WoD have already improved PvP, to the point where even this prepatch feels less retarded than S14/S15, if for no other reason than that I finally get to control my character and do stuff.

If there's one thing I'm concerned about with WoD, it's that they're considering bringing battle fatigue back (it was 20% on beta, I think), which is just an awful bandaid that screws certain specs over (retri), and does nothing to curb the OP healing of other specs (boomkin). So here's to hoping they'll come up with a better solution or even *gasp* adjust specific spells so that they heal less in PvP than they do outside.

God, I can't wait to play WoD. :)
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#28 Bawn

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 02:07 PM

While I agree the single nova would fit the cc reduction goal, this is just a really dumb way to implement it.

Instead of a second nova, you have the single most hard hitting ability tied into an aoe stun, labeled as a freeze. Probably the most braindead ability ever. Promotes yolobursting every minute with orb + ice nova + instant cast spam.

If it provided a small root instead and didnt have all our dmg tied into, maybe it could work. Getting casts through when it's needed should reward damage, not this kind of braindead aids.


apparently it DRs with poly, so they basically lose root for a poly DR stun thing, i can see healers jumping in top of their dps just to bait that poly DR, but then again theyll probably just instantly die

on topic: I agree with talb and can't wait to see wod, idk but i have a good feeling about it

Edited by Bawn, 11 November 2014 - 02:08 PM.

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#29 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 02:18 PM

While I agree the single nova would fit the cc reduction goal, this is just a really dumb way to implement it.

Instead of a second nova, you have the single most hard hitting ability tied into an aoe stun, labeled as a freeze. Probably the most braindead ability ever. Promotes yolobursting every minute with orb + ice nova + instant cast spam.

If it provided a small root instead and didnt have all our dmg tied into, maybe it could work. Getting casts through when it's needed should reward damage, not this kind of braindead aids.

Agree completely, braindead aids does pretty much sum up their changes to mages in general for wod :)

Lots of complaints about mages burst into deepfreeze, how can we fix this?
Team 1: tie frost mages to multistrike - similar to how we did with icicles, remove the large hits, instead they have low hits which cause a second hit later or have a chance to proc an additional smaller hit
Team 2: let's make deep freeze break instantly on damage!
Well option one is live already, so mages are tied to multistrike and have no more individual hard hitting spells, but let's just go with option two as well anyway and remove deep freeze as a stun, then we definitely won't have any complaints :):):)

apparently it DRs with poly, so they basically lose root for a poly DR stun thing, i can see healers jumping in top of their dps just to bait that poly DR, but then again theyll probably just instantly die

Instantly die to what, the 14k ice nova aoe hit? We have 320k hp rofl

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 11 November 2014 - 02:20 PM.

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No because the difference is when I play a comp i play it close to skill cap

if anyone needs to be banned, it's you. You do nothing but sit on AJ being a passive aggressive idiot that nobody likes, sorry you stink of washing up liquid.

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)


#30 Avengelyne

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 02:21 PM

Talb's posts are always quality. +1.
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#31 Clamnesia

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 02:38 PM

IM a firm believer in the fact that the biggest damage from CASTERS should be CASTED abilities. Frost bolt SHOULD hit for more than ice lance or ice nova. Especially if theyre trying to "make us cast". The old shatter mechanic is the perfect example. It wasnt the ice lance doing the damage. It was the Frost bolt, ice lance, and pet bolt all hitting you at the same time on the same "shatter" that did the damage.
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Ya know, i was born in west philadelphia. I spent most of my days on the play ground. Usually i just be chillin, relaxin, trying to act cool by shooting some b-ball at school. But on this one, terrible, dreary, horrid day, a couple of guys that were certainly up to no good starting making trouble.. I was the first one of course to step up and fight them back. Because of this, my mom got scared and made me move in with my aunt and uncle in bel-air.

#32 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 02:56 PM

IM a firm believer in the fact that the biggest damage from CASTERS should be CASTED abilities. Frost bolt SHOULD hit for more than ice lance or ice nova. Especially if theyre trying to "make us cast". The old shatter mechanic is the perfect example.

What's sad is, now that they are able to introduce spec specific set bonuses on pvp gear, it would be ridiculously easy to have a frost mage set bonus that increases frostbolt damage by 60% and reduces icelance damage by 20% (whatever the numbers need to be)

Instead we get ice nova as the only viable pvp talent which hits for 5x the damage of a frostbolt instantly, and a set bonus that makes frozen orb explode for 10k damage at the end of its duration (woo useful)
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No because the difference is when I play a comp i play it close to skill cap

if anyone needs to be banned, it's you. You do nothing but sit on AJ being a passive aggressive idiot that nobody likes, sorry you stink of washing up liquid.

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)


#33 ysnakewoo

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 03:00 PM

IM a firm believer in the fact that the biggest damage from CASTERS should be CASTED abilities. Frost bolt SHOULD hit for more than ice lance or ice nova. Especially if theyre trying to "make us cast". The old shatter mechanic is the perfect example. It wasnt the ice lance doing the damage. It was the Frost bolt, ice lance, and pet bolt all hitting you at the same time on the same "shatter" that did the damage.


First of all, remove all the anti-fear bullshit in the game along with nerfing mobility to every single class, reducing the number of interrupts and stuns even more to make them non existant. Then we can talk about pure hardcasting.

WoW is one of the few games that CAN'T have hardcasting. All other MMORPGs have the following:
- if you're melee and you're far away from a ranged class, you're getting shat on
- if you're ranged and a melee is sitting on your ass, you'll hardly make an impact

However, those games HAVE ZERO GAP CLOSERS. While literally every class has some sort of a gap-closer in WoW. I know Harry Potters left a bad taste in everyone's mouth after Pandas but this is not the way to deal with hardcasting vs instant abilities.

E: Also, if you were to remove instant casts from having an impact, than spells that are hardcast should hit like A TRUCK. Because while you were trying to cast with that melee cunt on you, you are doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, no damage coming from you, no CC coming from you, no nothing.

You are trying to make an argument to a system that was already implemented in another game (Dark Age of Camelot). In that game, casters COULDN'T cast if there was someone attacking them, you were instantly interrupted. Melees didn't do a lot of damage (100-400 damage every 1.5 second on 2k-3k health pools, depending on the class etc), however, casters did 600+ damage with EACH cast. Quite frankly, the game was balanced with over 40 classes in the game.

That system wouldn't work in WoW and they SHOULD promote hardcasting, but make it much more fucking rewarding. Because getting a cast off while a melee is throbbing his mighty 1-2-3 dick in your ass is a pain in the fucking ass (some might enjoy it, but not me, unfortunately).

Edited by ysnakewoo, 11 November 2014 - 03:08 PM.

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#34 Clamnesia

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 03:53 PM

First of all, remove all the anti-fear bullshit in the game along with nerfing mobility to every single class, reducing the number of interrupts and stuns even more to make them non existant. Then we can talk about pure hardcasting.

WoW is one of the few games that CAN'T have hardcasting. All other MMORPGs have the following:
- if you're melee and you're far away from a ranged class, you're getting shat on
- if you're ranged and a melee is sitting on your ass, you'll hardly make an impact

However, those games HAVE ZERO GAP CLOSERS. While literally every class has some sort of a gap-closer in WoW. I know Harry Potters left a bad taste in everyone's mouth after Pandas but this is not the way to deal with hardcasting vs instant abilities.

E: Also, if you were to remove instant casts from having an impact, than spells that are hardcast should hit like A TRUCK. Because while you were trying to cast with that melee cunt on you, you are doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, no damage coming from you, no CC coming from you, no nothing.

You are trying to make an argument to a system that was already implemented in another game (Dark Age of Camelot). In that game, casters COULDN'T cast if there was someone attacking them, you were instantly interrupted. Melees didn't do a lot of damage (100-400 damage every 1.5 second on 2k-3k health pools, depending on the class etc), however, casters did 600+ damage with EACH cast. Quite frankly, the game was balanced with over 40 classes in the game.

That system wouldn't work in WoW and they SHOULD promote hardcasting, but make it much more fucking rewarding. Because getting a cast off while a melee is throbbing his mighty 1-2-3 dick in your ass is a pain in the fucking ass (some might enjoy it, but not me, unfortunately).


Thats kind of what i said, bro bro. You took what i said and implied the same exact thing using different wording. lol
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Ya know, i was born in west philadelphia. I spent most of my days on the play ground. Usually i just be chillin, relaxin, trying to act cool by shooting some b-ball at school. But on this one, terrible, dreary, horrid day, a couple of guys that were certainly up to no good starting making trouble.. I was the first one of course to step up and fight them back. Because of this, my mom got scared and made me move in with my aunt and uncle in bel-air.

#35 Clamnesia

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 03:54 PM

What's sad is, now that they are able to introduce spec specific set bonuses on pvp gear, it would be ridiculously easy to have a frost mage set bonus that increases frostbolt damage by 60% and reduces icelance damage by 20% (whatever the numbers need to be)

Instead we get ice nova as the only viable pvp talent which hits for 5x the damage of a frostbolt instantly, and a set bonus that makes frozen orb explode for 10k damage at the end of its duration (woo useful)


This.
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Ya know, i was born in west philadelphia. I spent most of my days on the play ground. Usually i just be chillin, relaxin, trying to act cool by shooting some b-ball at school. But on this one, terrible, dreary, horrid day, a couple of guys that were certainly up to no good starting making trouble.. I was the first one of course to step up and fight them back. Because of this, my mom got scared and made me move in with my aunt and uncle in bel-air.

#36 Clamnesia

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 04:12 PM

Basically, take wotlk for example.

Warlocks (destruction) - Could fear a melee, to get some distance to cast a CB or incin. The fear would take them just far away enough that they could cast and it wouldnt be broken by dots. The chaos bolt or incinerate or two would usually be enough damage to break it. Chaos bolt didnt hit nearly as hard back then and neither did incin. But the "breaks on damage" threshold was pretty balanced so that it was a decent gap maker. The same can be said for shadowfury or death coil, because warrior has and such has ONE gap closer... Not 31897341827381276 gap closers. However, during this gap time, the warrior wasnt necessarily absolutely shit on and could get back to the target within reason and resume his melee damage.

Mage - Blink ----> shatter, Nova (run for a bit) Shatter, etc.


Hunter - Concussive----> disengage ----> do damage, etc.


Druids root into travel form into damage, etc..


Yes, i know that this isnt 100% gospel and how it worked every time without any doubt, but its a general basis for how things were better in that sense. Back then, when a melee was on you, you got relatively shit on... When the melee wasnt on you, THEY got relatively shit on. I feel like melee up time / down time was decently balanced.. Imo, notice i said MY ***OPINION**** the way it worked back then was alot better than the 80% melee uptime so casters have instant spells that hit like trucks shit fest that we've seen lately. The thing is... Its okay for melee to have 100% uptime on another melee. They passively reduce each others damage via higher armor and things like dodge / parry and cooldowns that give higher armor or damage reduction or dodge / parry. Casters dont have those things. When a melee has 100% uptime on a caster or any kind of OP overtime, the caster is going to take more damage than a melee would. It was the whole "train the clothie" thing. That was/is a thing for a reason. If a ranged class cant do meaningful casted damage at range, then why are they even a casting ranged class to begin with? Hell, just give them mail or plate armor and let them do instant cast damage equal to that of a ret, warrior, or DK.


Im sorry, but doing things like... Giving chaos bolt 100% chance to hit like truck, but its a 2 second cast time, is NOT the way to fix it. That mechanic is ballsack imo. Idk why they changed destruction to play like that, but its ridiculous. Destruction season 8 was probably the most fun gameplay destro has ever seen. (granted it was really STUPID OP combined with ele shaman and pve gear on oth)


I guess im talking to a wall though because alot of those things were based on other abilities as well that took skill to perform. Skillful things that are no longer in the game because people cried about not being able to perform well because thaey couldnt manage abilities well. Things like amplify magic and dampen magic. Curse of tongues, curse of exhaustion, curse of weakness. etc etc. All of the things that proved difference between top tier players and 1700 players.

I guess i cant compare things in the game now to things in the game then because too much has changed. Too much has been omitted or made baseline to make it easier, or made passive to make it easier, etc.

im going to stop cause im going off into some kind of crazy tangent.

Edited by Clamnesia, 11 November 2014 - 04:24 PM.

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Ya know, i was born in west philadelphia. I spent most of my days on the play ground. Usually i just be chillin, relaxin, trying to act cool by shooting some b-ball at school. But on this one, terrible, dreary, horrid day, a couple of guys that were certainly up to no good starting making trouble.. I was the first one of course to step up and fight them back. Because of this, my mom got scared and made me move in with my aunt and uncle in bel-air.

#37 Abidalzim

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 04:17 PM

New Blade's Edge and Dalaran are ten times worse than they were before the addition of extra bridges/stairs. Easily the worst decision ever made by Blizzard. They should just delete Dalaran Arena like they did with Orgrimmar arena, and remove the mid ramps on Blade's Edge.

This is coming from someone who NEVER had a serious arena team with Thunderstorm/Typhoon/etc, so I had no advantage on the old maps.

The old ones were much worse, although I really liked the design of blade's edge. But some of the matchups were literally 100 % impossible to win (s11 turbo vs lsd2 for example, on dalaran you had about 2 % chance of winning and on blade's edge 0 %, even on ring of valor R1 lsds would triple camp the big starting pillar vs us, using link in the first 10 secs without any kiting whatsoever, rathen than moving away from it).

My issue with WoD is the mobility of EVERY class, not only melee but caster and healer as well. There's to much of it and to counter that there's still too much instant casts in game and all kind of spells that used to be medium ranged like fear and hex have too much range nowadays, making positioning not matter as much as I'd like.
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#38 Clamnesia

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 04:53 PM

The old ones were much worse, although I really liked the design of blade's edge. But some of the matchups were literally 100 % impossible to win (s11 turbo vs lsd2 for example, on dalaran you had about 2 % chance of winning and on blade's edge 0 %, even on ring of valor R1 lsds would triple camp the big starting pillar vs us, using link in the first 10 secs without any kiting whatsoever, rathen than moving away from it).

My issue with WoD is the mobility of EVERY class, not only melee but caster and healer as well. There's to much of it and to counter that there's still too much instant casts in game and all kind of spells that used to be medium ranged like fear and hex have too much range nowadays, making positioning not matter as much as I'd like.



I can agree with this. Wouldnt you say that at this point, the only person on the team whos position matters to an extreme whould be the healer? I feel like it used to be that NOONE on the team could over extend or get into a mongo position because they would instantly be swapped to and pressured.. now thats not the case as much.. You see everyone bouncing into enemy lines to do X but because of mobility and such they can just bounce right back out unharmed.
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Ya know, i was born in west philadelphia. I spent most of my days on the play ground. Usually i just be chillin, relaxin, trying to act cool by shooting some b-ball at school. But on this one, terrible, dreary, horrid day, a couple of guys that were certainly up to no good starting making trouble.. I was the first one of course to step up and fight them back. Because of this, my mom got scared and made me move in with my aunt and uncle in bel-air.

#39 rizzy

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 04:57 PM

Pretty much agree with all of it, but there is a lot I feel that is left out.

A main missing point to how I personally see the game is the lost flavor going into WoD. I really enjoyed the concept of micro battles/mind games on mechanics such as tremor stomping, vanish immuning, 5-8 kiting a warrior or simple things like jumping charge.

Re-adding the server delay into some abilities like meld or mobility cooldowns could possibly do a lot for the game. Such as, maintaining some of the previous expansions flavors on things like shadowsteping a charge or kicking a warstomp cast etc.

Shadowmeld immuning being removed is one of my least favorite things about the expansion, but the tradeoff is obviously worth the game being more responsive as a whole.


You can still shadowmeld immune stuff btw. (priest fear for example) immuning casted things seem a bit harder though.

Edited by rizzy, 11 November 2014 - 04:58 PM.

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#40 Guania

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Posted 11 November 2014 - 05:00 PM

3 Hunter team getting Glad in Malevolent Season in Misery Battle Group... #NeverForgetStampedeBug
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