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Dilly's Survival Hunter PvP guide (6.2.3)


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#81 OnIowa

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 07:14 AM

super noob question here. what keys do you use for movement? i usaully use (qwe) but after looking through your binds i notice you have those bound to spells. just curious what you use to get around. thanks! and great post for those of us looking to start arena!
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#82 Mattadoro

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 07:40 AM

dilly and pika threw an after party right after blizzcon https://www.facebook...281530032056814

Dj Stove Aoki private show.. doesnt get more 420 than that

that drop at 1:53 tho..

Edited by Mattadoro, 12 November 2014 - 07:52 AM.

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#83 Dills

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 09:12 AM

super noob question here. what keys do you use for movement? i usaully use (qwe) but after looking through your binds i notice you have those bound to spells. just curious what you use to get around. thanks! and great post for those of us looking to start arena!


W to move forward, A to strafe left, D to strafe right. :)
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the only hunter i approve of is dillypoo. the remainder of hunters' existence offends me to my core. when i wake up, i am troubled that in some parts of the world, there are other humans who still partake in slavery, sex trafficking, and hunter playing on world of warcraft


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did you ever get round to taking it? It's actually the best free site i've found :)

Gonna take that as you flopped hard and couldn't get near my score with repeated tries :)


#84 Dills

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Posted 12 November 2014 - 09:23 AM

dilly and pika threw an after party right after blizzcon https://www.facebook...281530032056814

Dj Stove Aoki private show.. doesnt get more 420 than that

that drop at 1:53 tho..


LOL wtf
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the only hunter i approve of is dillypoo. the remainder of hunters' existence offends me to my core. when i wake up, i am troubled that in some parts of the world, there are other humans who still partake in slavery, sex trafficking, and hunter playing on world of warcraft


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did you ever get round to taking it? It's actually the best free site i've found :)

Gonna take that as you flopped hard and couldn't get near my score with repeated tries :)


#85 Peripheral

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Posted 15 November 2014 - 02:40 PM

Anybody who isn't lazy done any of the math pertaining to stat priority @ 100?
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#86 Dills

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Posted 16 November 2014 - 10:54 PM

Anybody who isn't lazy done any of the math pertaining to stat priority @ 100?


Doing the math for them currently. I'll update with the stat priority soon :)
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the only hunter i approve of is dillypoo. the remainder of hunters' existence offends me to my core. when i wake up, i am troubled that in some parts of the world, there are other humans who still partake in slavery, sex trafficking, and hunter playing on world of warcraft


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did you ever get round to taking it? It's actually the best free site i've found :)

Gonna take that as you flopped hard and couldn't get near my score with repeated tries :)


#87 gravyrainbow

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 07:49 PM

Anybody who isn't lazy done any of the math pertaining to stat priority @ 100?

Doing the math for them currently. I'll update with the stat priority soon :)


I need to do some maths also, but I'm mostly still confused about crit/multistrike in pvp... are they as bad as they seem? Crit for instance seems worth about half the item budget in pvp due to 150% crits... am I missing something? Is it that bad?
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#88 Dhorothy

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Posted 17 November 2014 - 08:13 PM

thanks for the mention, nice guide, also B M B O Y S :D
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#89 Dills

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 01:09 AM

I need to do some maths also, but I'm mostly still confused about crit/multistrike in pvp... are they as bad as they seem? Crit for instance seems worth about half the item budget in pvp due to 150% crits... am I missing something? Is it that bad?


Yeah crit is 150% in pvp and multistrike is basically 130% because it only gets 1 chance instead of 2 for the 30% extra damage lol. Versatility seems to be pretty good. Mastery and haste seem the weakest right now. Haste isn't awful in all honesty for MM because each aimed shot reduces rapid fires cd by 5 seconds but I don't think you can get it's value up high enough right now to make it worth it so it just seems pretty bad.
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the only hunter i approve of is dillypoo. the remainder of hunters' existence offends me to my core. when i wake up, i am troubled that in some parts of the world, there are other humans who still partake in slavery, sex trafficking, and hunter playing on world of warcraft


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did you ever get round to taking it? It's actually the best free site i've found :)

Gonna take that as you flopped hard and couldn't get near my score with repeated tries :)


#90 gravyrainbow

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 01:48 AM

Yeah crit is 150% in pvp and multistrike is basically 130% because it only gets 1 chance instead of 2 for the 30% extra damage lol. Versatility seems to be pretty good. Mastery and haste seem the weakest right now. Haste isn't awful in all honesty for MM because each aimed shot reduces rapid fires cd by 5 seconds but I don't think you can get it's value up high enough right now to make it worth it so it just seems pretty bad.


Mastery I can understand being weak compared to everything else since it shits on your mobility... but you really think haste will be weaker than crit or multistrike? Since the items are all budgeted for PVE it seems that crit would have to be worth twice as much dps per point in PVE compared to haste for it to reach parity in PVP. Again, I haven't had a chance to hash out the math or run it through a sim yet, but I'm really skeptical of crit and multistrike right now.
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#91 Dills

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 03:23 AM

Mastery I can understand being weak compared to everything else since it shits on your mobility... but you really think haste will be weaker than crit or multistrike? Since the items are all budgeted for PVE it seems that crit would have to be worth twice as much dps per point in PVE compared to haste for it to reach parity in PVP. Again, I haven't had a chance to hash out the math or run it through a sim yet, but I'm really skeptical of crit and multistrike right now.


No I'm not completely sure on haste yet, but it'll still take time to know for sure.
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the only hunter i approve of is dillypoo. the remainder of hunters' existence offends me to my core. when i wake up, i am troubled that in some parts of the world, there are other humans who still partake in slavery, sex trafficking, and hunter playing on world of warcraft


Posted Image

did you ever get round to taking it? It's actually the best free site i've found :)

Gonna take that as you flopped hard and couldn't get near my score with repeated tries :)


#92 SH4D0WS1N

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 01:57 AM

Hey. As an introduction I did some of Dilly's math last season and for WoD I'm doing what I can to help him out. I was asked to figure out the stats for hunters. Now as a PvEr my natural reaction is to simulate and run stat scaling.

However, I was told the following for PvP:

* Crits do 150% damage
* Multistrikes only have one roll

The first time I was asked Simcraft did not yet have the PvP crit reduction in effect. A bit later I found out they added the crit reduction and ran sims with stat scaling there. I told him my original stat priority of Multistrike > Versatility > Crit > Mastery > Haste for burst scenarios and Multistrike > Versatility > Crit = Mastery = Haste for overall damage.

This new information regarding Multistrikes is not yet implemented into Simcraft. I decided to see what I could do in terms of manual math. I'm not a complete expert in math. I don't know calculus and I didn't take statistics, but I try anyway.

The google docs formula I used for this is =((1+((0.5+(C12/22000)+$C$9)*((B12/11000))+$B$9))*(1+(0.3*(D12/6600)))*(1+(C12/22000)+$C$9)*(1+(E12/13000)))

To put it in an easy to read image I changed variables and put it into wolfram: (I can't post images yet, so since I'm a rule breaker: i[dot]imgur[dot]com/kS3z1ki.gif )

m = Mastery rating
M = Base Mastery % (This is 4% or 0.04)
c = Crit rating
C = Base Crit % (I did not know this value and input 5% or 0.05) (EDIT: The correct value is 15%. It makes mastery a little stronger but it doesn't affect my end result)
u = Multistrike
v = Versatility

The 0.5 is How much additional damage a crit does, which in this case is 0.5 (and is modified by mastery).
0.3 for multistrike is how hard a multistrike hits.
22000, 11000, 6600, and 13000 are the ratings required for 1% of Mastery, Crit, Multistrike, and Versatility respectively, with an additional two 0s to turn it from a % into a decimal.

Now one thing to understand about stats is that the weight of stats changes every time you add or remove stats.

This formula gives the amount of raw damage per shot. It's important to understand that this does not take into account Haste and any of its effects or the 20 Focus gain from Aimed Shot Crits.

Now just as a baseline I used the values 1500 for every stat and 4000 for AP. If you add and subtract values you can determine how much each stat is worth at its current value (1500 in this case). I did this with 50 and 100. (I have tested values with Simcraft's and got similar enough results to trust my math).

Using the base values of 1500 and 4000 AP you end up with the following weights:
[EDIT] My chart showed up in the WYSIWYG editor but didn't post in at all... so here's a picture of it: i[dot]imgur[dot]com/HQdcuvV.png [/EDIT]

Like I said though, stat weights change based on how many of a stat you have. For 1500 of every stat it takes about 7500 versatility for crit to be worth as much as versatility for raw damage per shot. I messed around with a lot of values and the only time I got priorities to change under realistic circumstances was between crit and mastery. Ideally there is a balance between them (due to mastery increasing crit damage) and it was something I mentioned to Dillypoo and something I will bring up lower down in the post.

Stats for the most part scale linearly. This means that 100 of a stat is worth exactly twice as much as 50 of a stat assuming none of your other stats change. Mastery, however, does not scale as linearly (most likely because it affects two different things in your damage), but it's close enough.

The bonus Focus on Aimed Shot Crits is something to definitely take into account. Both my original sim and my most recent sim (which slightly innaccurate because of improper multistrike scaling) makes it appear as if it's not a big enough difference to weigh Crit over Versatility.

Haste is a little troublesome. For starters Hunters have a 1.0s GCD regardless of your level of haste, so all instant casts are unaffected by Haste. There's no easy way to calculate the effects of haste on your cast time abilities (Aimed Shot, Steady Shot, and Barrage if you take it) without essentially manually doing a simulation. I did some basic math assuming the following though:

* Unlimited Focus
* ONLY casting Aimed Shot
* Rapid Fire is cast on CD without delaying an Aimed Shot cast

And 3k haste was 7 seconds off of the CD on Rapid Fire and 2 additional Aimed Shot casts during Rapid Fire. Haste at or below 1000 gives you exactly 9 casts of Aimed Shot during Rapid Fire. Between 1000 and 2666 Haste you get 10 casts of Aimed Shot off during Rapid Fire.

To me that sounds maybe worth it, but you don't have unlimited Focus so you can't always cast Aimed Shot anywhere close to that.

Haste also increases Focus regeneration (not sure at what rate, sorry) but it's not too much.

Simcraft puts Haste tied with Mastery in weight.

Summary:

So where does all of that information get us for a stat priority?

Versatility seems to be the way to go. For enchants and what you'll be looking for on gear I would say Versatility. Afterwards Crit is pretty nice, both in terms of damage and focus regeneration on Aimed Shot Crits.

Normally Crit and Mastery's interaction (with Crit Damage on Mastery) would call for an ideal balance between Crit and Mastery (I think the ratio was something like 7:5). However this is PvP. Anything below 91% uptime on Mastery makes it do less overall damage than Multistrike. I don't PvP on a hunter but I'm willing to bet your uptime looks nothing like that. It will be slightly better than Multistrike for burst, but overall I'd say next in the priority is Multistrike.

Haste is incredibly difficult to gauge properly manually. Based on Simcraft results, my near-useless napkin math, and Mastery uptime in PvP I'd say Haste is your next bet. Last and hopefully least is Mastery.

In Short:

Verastility >> Crit > Multistrike > Haste > Mastery

I'm kind of newer to this kind of stuff, so I hope everything here is accurate and concise. Hopefully this wall of text isn't too much for you all. Thanks for reading.
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#93 gravyrainbow

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 07:30 AM

In Short:

Verastility >> Crit > Multistrike > Haste > Mastery

I'm kind of newer to this kind of stuff, so I hope everything here is accurate and concise. Hopefully this wall of text isn't too much for you all. Thanks for reading.


I found pretty much the same thing from my sims. So it looks like enchants will be Megawatt Filament for your weapon and versatility for everything else eh?
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#94 Elbareth

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 08:37 AM

I have been extremely busy as of late and have not had time to do my usual sims and tests before the season starts so for now I will just list a simple stat conversion guide for level 100 for any of you math/theorycraft lords to play around with. When I get time to test I will post my findings. :)

Ratings:

1 Agi = 1 AP

110 Crit rating = 1% chance to critically strike

100 haste rating = 1% increased haste

66 multistrike = 1% chance to multistrike (in pvp there is only one chance for multistrike to proc an attack doing 30% of the original attacks damage)

130 Versatility rating = 1% increased damage and .5% decreased damage (260 Versatility rating to get 1% decreased damage)

4 focus per second base regen

Pet stats ( people tend to forget how much your pet can contribute)
Your pets gains:
100% of armor
100% AP
70% of stam
100% of Haste
100% of Crit
125% of focus regen

I'm assuming people know mastery for MM ( base = 4% increased damage, crit damage and shot range) (must be standing still)
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#95 Alex12

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 03:38 PM

SO what STATS do we focus on at pvp?
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#96 Alex12

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 03:51 PM

each aimed shot reduces rapid fires cd by 5 seconds


each aimed shot reduces rapid fire by 5 sec wtf are you talking about??Where did you get that from?
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#97 Hiddenstalke

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 04:29 PM

each aimed shot reduces rapid fire by 5 sec wtf are you talking about??Where did you get that from?

I believe it's going to be a set bonus
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#98 Dills

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 09:06 PM

each aimed shot reduces rapid fire by 5 sec wtf are you talking about??Where did you get that from?


It's part of our 4 piece set bonus.
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the only hunter i approve of is dillypoo. the remainder of hunters' existence offends me to my core. when i wake up, i am troubled that in some parts of the world, there are other humans who still partake in slavery, sex trafficking, and hunter playing on world of warcraft


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did you ever get round to taking it? It's actually the best free site i've found :)

Gonna take that as you flopped hard and couldn't get near my score with repeated tries :)


#99 gravyrainbow

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 10:34 PM

@dilly, have you had a chance to try out LW since the base res removal? The burst is real, man. I tend to agree that it's probably of more use playing with e.g. a rogue, or a paladin (somewhat ameliorating the loss of MC/RoS). Based on a day of skirmishes/BGs (admittedly they don't mean much right now), I think it's a much better talent than people are giving it credit for. The increased burst+res removal means that killing healers is actually realistic now.

Also, fix binding shot plz, I'd love to be able to stun paladins again.
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#100 Dills

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 11:07 PM

@dilly, have you had a chance to try out LW since the base res removal? The burst is real, man. I tend to agree that it's probably of more use playing with e.g. a rogue, or a paladin (somewhat ameliorating the loss of MC/RoS). Based on a day of skirmishes/BGs (admittedly they don't mean much right now), I think it's a much better talent than people are giving it credit for. The increased burst+res removal means that killing healers is actually realistic now.

Also, fix binding shot plz, I'd love to be able to stun paladins again.


Yes I have played with lone wolf especially on beta (there wasnt the resil there.) I have felt it is only useful when you are playing with a rogue and you are fighting a comp you can 100% gib in the opener, but otherwise I still do not like giving it up that much. I know that the high damage is very nice, however in some situations I feel that we already have enough damage anyways, so lone wolf will go overkill and will also result in us losing ros and freedom, which in my opinion if you are playing extremely aggressively, can keep you on the offensive, vs lone wolf that if you push in really hard with it up and you just aren't getting a kill super fast you can be punished a lot harder for it.

And yeah binding shot bug is lame lol, I've been avoiding running comps in skirms that I have to use it in so I can avoid the bug :)
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the only hunter i approve of is dillypoo. the remainder of hunters' existence offends me to my core. when i wake up, i am troubled that in some parts of the world, there are other humans who still partake in slavery, sex trafficking, and hunter playing on world of warcraft


Posted Image

did you ever get round to taking it? It's actually the best free site i've found :)

Gonna take that as you flopped hard and couldn't get near my score with repeated tries :)





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