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6.0 Dancing in the Shadows

Sub Rogue Guide Learn Justin Bieber

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#1 HeyimJack

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 05:02 PM

Warlords of Draenor Subtlety Rogue Guide S17

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1.0 - Introduction
1.1 - Why Subtlety?
1.2 - Ability Prune / What's Changed
1.3 - Talents
1.4 - Glyphs
1.5 - Basic openers
1.6 - What's my job outside of burst
1.7 - How to maximize damage outside of Dance
1.8 - Stat priorities
1.9 - Enchants
2.0 - Macros
2.1 - Addons
2.2 - What off pieces should I buy? (To come in PVP season)
2.3 - Rogue Streams
2.4 - Pandemic Effect for Rogue buffs
2.5 - Missed anything / Stuff you want to see

Introduction
Hey I'm Jack, I'm a 2.8+ Rogue who's been playing since the end of Wotlk. I only started PVP'ing last season mainly because of a poor computer which caused me to fps lag inside arena. I'm basically a MoP hero achieving my first Gladiator titles on 2 of my rogues both in 3s and 5s. I usually camp in Elwynn a lot and often get asked questions by other Rogues so now I'll have somewhere to direct them where they can hopefully clear up any queries they have.

My Rogue Armories
http://eu.battle.net...w/Jack/advanced (Main Rogue)
http://eu.battle.net...otjack/advanced (Alt Rogue)
http://eu.battle.net...Dweebx/advanced (Horde Rogue)

Why Subtlety?
Subtlety
Sub is the one spec for Rogues which has on demand damage which isn't gimmicky with a long cd, we're able to pump out big damage with every Dance/Vanish if we which can be extremely scary if lined with trinket/weapon procs properly.

Combat
Combat is probably the strongest rogue spec in the current meta game because of the overall damage output as well as 6-10 second kidney shots & low cd cooldowns.

Assassination
Assassination's currently an extremely strong spec simply because of the damage output it may or may not be better than Sub at the moment so lets not go any further into that.

Ability Prune / What's Changed

Ability Prune
Shadow Blades
Shadow Walk
Disarm Trap
Dismantle
Redirect

What's Changed
Burst of Speed now costs 30 Energy (up from 15 Energy)
Nerve Strike now reduces the targets damage dealt by 50% (up from 25%)
Tricks of the trade no longer gives a damage bonus to the target
Energetic Recovery has been built into our Slice and Dice
Find Weakness has been built into the abilities it benefited before
Combo Points are now on ourselves rather than the enemy
Rogues can now backstab people from the sides
Rogues can now ambush people from the front
Expose Armor has been removed
Honor Among Thieves can now trigger from the rogues auto attacks
Subterfuge no longer makes the rogue stealthed for the duration of the effect

Talents

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Nightstalker - Not worth using, the only reason Nightstalker is good is for the vanish evis but it's far too gimmicky as at times you can vanish and auto attack out of stealth before you can get your evis off and with vanish being one of our best offensive & defensive cooldowns it isn't worth the risk.

Subterfuge - Subterfuge is currently my talent of choice I feel it's still insanely good even with the stealth nerf. There are times a rogue needs to open with Garrote > Cheapshot and it's not always wise to waste your dance right off the bat when you can force cds without it.

Shadow Focus - After Subterfuge SF is probably your best bet enabling you to get off your opening cheap/garrote pretty much free of cost which then allows you to do a lot more damage with the energy you have left. I feel in WoD this will be the talent of choice to those who run without the Energy glyph.

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Deadly Throw - I feel Dleadly Throw has always been viable however it requires quite the skillcap and combo point planning, I personally wouldn't choose it over the other 2 choices in the tree because of how strong they are.

Nerve Strike - Nerve Strike is a really strong talent for rogues as it makes our stuns even more effective for peeling reducing other enemy players damage by 25% for 6 seconds this can also help towards stopping the enemy team from getting counter pressure. (6.0 The Nerve Strike tooltip is currently wrong it reduces enemy npc's damage by 50% but only 25% on enemy players)

Combat Readiness - Combat Readiness is an insanely good defensive if used correctly, When fully stacked with feint you can take up to 80% reduced damage which is huge. If you're able to predict swaps vs most teams e.g. a rogue team this can often stop the need of your trinket and even a healer cd if used at the appropriate time.

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Cheat Death - Currently in 6.0 Cheat Death is very viable because of how easy it is to get dropped in a stunlock in a matter of seconds but in terms of overall use it still comes in 2nd place to Elusiveness.

Leeching Poison - Not worth using.

Elusiveness - This has probably been the best choice of talent in the tree for entirety of MoP because its on demand damage reduction and it will probably be the best choice of talent in WoD too if it doesn't get changed. If used properly feint can become such a strong defensive tool for rogues if you're able to predict swaps or damage and pre feint it. (If you're not the best at using feint you can check out the feint glyph which adds 2 seconds onto the duration)

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Cloak and Dagger - This talent may as well not be in the game as it's only ever been too good or not good enough Blizzard have never been able to find a balanced compromise for it. Overall in the current state of the game this is probably the worst choice of talent in the this tier.

Shadowstep - Currently in 6.0 I feel Step is the best choice of talent as it brings so much utility to a rogue when used properly. Step's an ability that's able to be used defensivly & offensivly e.g. stepping partners to get restealths or los damage. With the removal of a lot of slows, roots in 6.0 Step is a lot more viable than previously as it can be used as a chase tool rather than a gap closer.

Burst of Speed - BoS is good however it's not worth using in pretty much any situation over ShadowStep because of the high energy cost/cooldown, also with the ammount of spammable slows currently in the game ShadowStep is really important for connecting quickly.

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Prey on the Weak - Prey is currently the best choice of talent in 6,0 as most of rogues pressure comes from stunlocks having that extra 10% damage from you and your team is pretty huge.

Internal Bleeding - Combat/Assas talent

Dirty Tricks - Not worth using.

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Shuriken Toss - Not worth using.

Marked for Death - MFD is the strongest choice of talent in this tier and it has been for a few seasons, it gives rogues a lot of ondemand damage which is usually paired with Shadow Dance to bring out some big Eviscerates which is where majority of your burst comes from.

Anticipation - This talent comes 2nd place to MFD however it's still a good talent it just requires a slightly different playstyle and more awareness to your Anticipation stacks if used properly it can be similar to having MFD but instead of being instant it's something you need to stack up. (This can be easily tracked, see addon section below)

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Venom Rush - VR is a good choice of talent because it makes the spec feel smooth with the increased energy pool / regen you often find yourself spamming fok for combo points which also spreads your poisons allowing you to get the most out of this talent.

Shadow Reflection - Combat/Assass talent

Death from Above - Since s17 DFA is probably the strongest thoice of talent it even feels op because of how gear's progressing you can find yourself hitting ridiculous numbers if you line it up with trinket/wep procs etc it also makes a really good gap closer / tool to avoid cc.

Glyphs

These are just the main glyphs you should be using but you might find there are rare occasions where other glyphs that might be better good for what you're doing.

Primary Glyphs

Cheap Shot - A strong glyph to use vs melee cleaves and in general teams where you find you won't be using garrote much or where you feel you'll need longer stun locks to kill/put out pressure.

Garrote - You should find yourself using this whenever you feel cheap shot glyph isn't as valuable, e.g. vs wizard teams, rets, shamans.

Blind - This glyph is pretty much mandetory however if you play with Hemo glyph and you feel you're not ever going to be dotting a specific target i.e. the healer you can replace this with either Cheap/Garrote glyph you'll just need to watch out for dots on the target or anything that could break the blind.

Hemo Vein - This glyph makes your Sanguinary Veins trigger from your Hemorrhage dot which means you're able to keep it up much easier but this also changes your playstyle & opener as you don't need to focus on applying rupture or even putting it up.

Glyph of Energy - This is another glyph I feel is mandetory since losing our previous set bonus which gave us 30+ energy allowing us to open more efficiently than without it due to energy starving.

Basic Openers

Rogue openers are different depending on your glyphs aswell as what you're facing.

Basic opener (No hemo glyph)
Premeditation > Slice and Dice > Cheapshot > Rupture > Dance > Ambush > Ambush > Kidney Shot > Marked for Death > Eviscerate > Damage/Garrote/Cheapshot varies on the situation

Basic opener (hemo glyph)
Premeditation > Slice and Dice > Cheapshot > Hemo > Dance > Ambush > Eviscerate > Marked for Death > Kidney Shot > Spam damage > Damage/Garrote/Cheapshot varies on the situation

Why don't you 5cp Rupture in the opener?
I recieved an ingame mail with someone telling me they feel it would be better to 5cp rupture in the opener so something like this:

Premeditation > Slice and Dice > Cheapshot > Ambush > Rupture > Dance > Ambush > Ambush > Kidney Shot > Marked for Death > Eviscerate > Damage/Garrote/Cheapshot varies on the situation

There are a few problems with this, For starters the first ambush isn't going to be effected by SV so it'll be 35% weaker i.e. a wasted ambush for 60 energy unless you dance before which is a waste as you need to use globals to rupture inside of dance, also if you're to try this opener on a basic target dummy you'll find that you can't get the kidney off before youe cheapshot ends with the amount of globals you have, this causes a huuuge problem as you don't want your enemy to have any sort of time where they can peel or use defensives. This is tested on a dummy with full energy, chances are in an actual arena game you won't be starting with full energy because of applying slice or sapping a target.

Here are some videos which will further go into how to open on casters etc, they're from before 6.0 but they should still be valid.

http://www.twitch.tv...zylol/c/3363735
http://www.twitch.tv/tierzx/c/4437539

What's my job outside of burst

What you need to be doing depends on the tide of the game you're playing.

If you're in a situation where you nor your partners are in trouble then your best bet is to either spam damage and get ready for your next burst oppertunity.
If you're in a position where one of your partners are being heavily trained and are in need of peels you need to step up with the removal of dismantle rogue have to be on their toes with peeling, we still have a lot of utility we can use to peel such as vanishing to throw out stuns (preferably not on the main target you need to keep him off dr for when you're ready to go) it's often a good idea to call your offstuns so people can follow up cc off them i.e.polymorph knowing he can't be kicked by a stunned target.
With the removal of Mind Numbing and dismantle rogues now heavily need to depend on shiv slows for peels vs melee cleaves, even using shiv on a feral can help forcing them to use a global on shifting instead of spamming damage into you or your partner.
Overall your job outside of burst windows is making sure you survive to see the next burst window, stopping damage & cc on your partners while pumping out your own consistant damage, if you're not doing any of these things you should be going for a restealth with a plan in mind.

How to maximize damage outside of Dance

This is a common question I get asked "How do I damage outside of cds/dance?" etc

Rogues have priorities and if you follow these priorities you'll be fine.

Disclaimer rogue damage outside of cds is bad by default (Well before prepatch at least)

#1 Slice and Dice - S&D needs to be kept up at all times as it generates 8 energy every 2 seconds it also increases your auto attack damage which is where majority of our damage comes from.

#2 Sanguinary Veins - SV Increases our overall damage to the target affected by 20% after slice this is your biggest priority, however keeping SV up is different depending on if you play with Hemo glyph or not as Hemo veins glyph makes your hemo dot apply SV without the need of rupture/garrote.

#3 Backstab over Hemo - If you can't hit your targets back/sides and you're not energy capped it's often a good idea to just keep trying to get to his back/sides and then spam out all your energy with backstabs the only time you should hemo over backstab is if the target isn't letting you get where you need to be or if you need to apply your hemo dot for SV. But if you're going to energy cap (hit full energy) you should just spam out hemo so you don't waste energy.

#4 Pooling energy before stuns - In most situations it's a good idea to pool some energy before going for a full kidney or any other stun, e,g, if you're playing with Prey and you full kidney without any damage that 5-6 seconds of 10% extra damage is going to waste where as if you stun with 60+ energy you're going to be able to spam backstab for the entire duration of the kidney making your overall damage a lot better.

Should I rupture with Hemo glyph?

Rupture is an incredibly strong ability for rogues and its damage is increased by 10% by default because of Sanguinary Veins. Even when specced into Hemo veins glyph you should focus on keeping rupture up if you're training a target but only if you have the combo points to spare and you feel putting out that extra evis won't get you any sort of defensive/healing cd from the enemy team, also having that extra damage ticking when you burst can be fairly noticable and even the difference between someone living and dying.

Stat priorities

Mastery > Versatility > Crit > Haste > Multistrike

Enchants

Cloak - Gift of Mastery / Breath of Mastery
Neck - Gift of Mastery / Breath of Mastery
Rings - Gift of Mastery / Breath of Mastery
Mainhand - Mark of Bleeding Hollow / Mark of the Shattered Hand
Offhand - Mark of Bleeding Hollow / Mark of the Shattered Hand


Macros

Not going to list all my macros here such as focus ones etc but these are just a few that might come in handy for some people.

#showtooltip
/cast !Stealth
/stopattack

#showtooltip Preparation
/castsequence reset=10 !Sprint,null
/stopcasting
/cast Preparation

#showtooltip
/cast [target=Namehere] Shadowstep
/cast [target=Namehere] Shadowstep

#showtooltip Shadowstep
/cast [@focus] Shadowstep
/cast [@focus, nostealth] Kick

#showtooltip
/stopattack
/cleartarget
/targetenemyplayer
/cast sap

#showtooltip Vanish
/cancelaura Subterfuge
/stopattack
/Cast Vanish

Addons

Here are a few addons I use that might help other people.

Arena Plates - This is an extremely good addon which places a green border around an enemy players nameplate when they're out of combat which can help you get mid game & opener saps.

Omni Bar - Omni Bar is the new Interrupt Bar as IB no longer recieves updates, I'm currently trying this out.
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Anticipation - The default combo points have a 30ms animation time which doesn't seem like a lot but it feels like a lot to me so I use this addon to speed up the animation down to around 15ms making my combo point animations slicker and smoother so I no longer have to wait for Honor Among Thieves to catchup with all the animations for each combo point.

Rogue Streams
http://www.twitch.tv...abooirl/profile
http://www.twitch.tv/nomanz/profile
http://www.twitch.tv/spb_89/profile
http://en-gb.twitch.tv/jacktv_ (My stream)

There are plenty other good rogues who stream but these are just a few who are more consistant with how often they stream.

Pandemic Effect for Rogue buffs
http://www.wowwiki.com/Pandemic Since WoD every class has been given the pandemic effect warlocks had which basically means we can refresh our abilities like Slice, Rupture etc and have most of the remaining duration added on to the duration that you would get from however many combo points you use.

Overall this means you can refresh SnD with less than 10 seconds & Rupture with less than 8 and have much longer durations making the rotation better.

Missed anything / Stuff you want to see

This has been my first guide and I thank you for reading this far, if you want to see anything else I've maybe not included or perhaps something you want me to elaborate on feel free to ask.
In terms of stuff you'd want to see I can maybe add stuff like how to team fight as a rogue in RBGs etc.
Also feel free to pm me or contact me in game.

Thanks for reading

Edited by HeyimJack, 23 September 2015 - 01:36 PM.

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#2 Mallorea

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 05:47 PM

There's an addon built off of Interrupt Bar called Juked. It's just like Interrupt Bar except it tracks everything, it also has a setting to only show abilities which have been used so that it doesn't clutter the screen. It's a lot more information and requires little set up, and abilities can be turned off via in game UI. It could be useful for those who don't want to set up Interrupt Bar.

Power auras can be useful too, you can use it to track SnD, anticipation and trinket procs. This one can be a pain to set up though.
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#3 iQonic

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 05:52 PM

Nice guide
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#4 Sativ

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 06:13 PM

Great post dude.
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#5 lehel

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 06:34 PM

Leaning heavily to maining rogue in wod, thank you for this
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#6 Korzul

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 06:35 PM

Internal Bleeding - I've not yet tried this talent in 6.0 it's something I'll look more into in WoD however I don't feel it will be that strong of a talent in comparison to Prey, chances are if someone's got out of your kidney shot and they're still alive chances are the next 12 seconds aren't going to make a difference to them living or dying until your next window of oppertunity.


Wouldn't dismiss this talent so easily.The damage it does is rather insane, it's by far the strongest finisher a rogue has damage wise if something is stunable. Given combo points are character specific now and not based on the target then swaps with 5 combo points up, starting with a full 5cp kidney into a dance etc are pretty devastating.

The one downside to it is using focus kidney because it completely shits on your ability to sap off it.

Also whilst the talent says it's 20.7% of AP per CP, Wowhead has it down as 124.2% of ap per cp. Last time i checked on beta it was clearly out damaging an Evis.
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#7 HeyimJack

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 06:44 PM

Wouldn't dismiss this talent so easily.The damage it does is rather insane, it's by far the strongest finisher a rogue has damage wise if something is stunable. Given combo points are character specific now and not based on the target then swaps with 5 combo points up, starting with a full 5cp kidney into a dance etc are pretty devastating.

The one downside to it is using focus kidney because it completely shits on your ability to sap off it.

Also whilst the talent says it's 20.7% of AP per CP, Wowhead has it down as 124.2% of ap per cp. Last time i checked on beta it was clearly out damaging an Evis.

Yeh like I said I've not yet used it I'll update it in WoD once I've tried all the talents out thoroughly
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#8 Sativ

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 07:23 PM

Just a thought: People often wonder about what Races do what since they've changed a little bit.
Another thing worth mentioning could be the new 'Pandemic' effect. Which lets you refresh Slice at 5-6 seconds and have it add the duration to your new one. Same with Debuffs.

Everyone can now refresh their periodic effects anywhere in the last 30% of the duration for full benefit, and no lost tick time.

Recasting periodic damage over time and healing over time effects that are already on the target now extends those effects to up to 130% of the normal duration of the effect.

Edited by Sativ, 22 October 2014 - 07:24 PM.

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#9 Vanguards

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 08:17 PM

Thanks for the Rogue guide, stickied!
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#10 mirag

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 09:07 PM

Internal Bleeding - I've not yet tried this talent in 6.0 it's something I'll look more into in WoD however I don't feel it will be that strong of a talent in comparison to Prey, chances are if someone's got out of your kidney shot and they're still alive chances are the next 12 seconds aren't going to make a difference to them living or dying until your next window of oppertunity.


Internal Bleeding procs right away when you kidney shot not after the stun ends.
With a good amount of multi skrike you can make the dot very short because of the new sinister calling effect.
With some luck the bleeding can actually finish before the kindey shot ends if its a full kidney.
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#11 HeyimJack

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Posted 22 October 2014 - 11:46 PM

Just a thought: People often wonder about what Races do what since they've changed a little bit.
Another thing worth mentioning could be the new 'Pandemic' effect. Which lets you refresh Slice at 5-6 seconds and have it add the duration to your new one. Same with Debuffs.

Everyone can now refresh their periodic effects anywhere in the last 30% of the duration for full benefit, and no lost tick time.

Recasting periodic damage over time and healing over time effects that are already on the target now extends those effects to up to 130% of the normal duration of the effect.

Yeah I'll add this at some point I need to check it out a bit my self first so I can add some other stuff like using S&D at x time with y amount of combo points gives z etc think it'd be nice, thanks!
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#12 Attono

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 12:52 AM

Really nice guide, good work.
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#13 Ravv

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 01:34 AM

Pretty nice guide for someone not playing a rogue ever before, other than that its kinda same shit as it was on MoP with the exceptions of glyphs/dot dmg being higher then eviscerates and thats it. Anyway, thx for that. Nothing new, still a guide for newbies.
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#14 HeyimJack

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 02:16 AM

Really nice guide, good work.

Thanks :)

Nothing new, still a guide for newbies.

Aren't all guides for newbies?
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#15 Hyuru

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 08:17 AM

A few wrong enchants in this guide, you should be using these:

Gloves: 15 Agility http://www.wowhead.com/spell=25080
Cloak: 12 Agility http://www.wowhead.com/item=38940
Legs: 23 Attackpower 28 Crit http://www.wowhead.com/item=56502

When it comes to PvE, crit is also a lot more valuable than Agility atm, might be the same for PvP? If so you should gem:

Blue: 20 Crit
Yellow: 20 Crit
Red: 5 Agility 10 Crit

Not sure how much crit you end up with in full PvP gear, but right now HaT is super broken and with 50~% crit you get an insane ammount of combo points.

Edited by Hyuru, 23 October 2014 - 08:21 AM.

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#16 Chubbsmalone

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 04:32 PM

Just something to add on here...

After playing a ton of WoD beta I feel pretty confident in saying Anticipation will be superior to MfD in 3s. The changes to honor among thieves, combo points on the rogue, and the slower playstyle all seem make MfD less valuable.

We get combo points like they are going out of style in WoD. Quite often, you will suddenly find yourself with 2-3 stacks of anticipation due to random crits from teammates. I would be pooling energy for 3-4 seconds preparing for a burst, and out of no where I would gain another 2 combo points. This happened all the time.

Also, it's extremely easy to set up a scenario where you can kidney and immediately evis with Anticipation (how most people use MfD) due to how easily the combo points come in WoD.

Just my 2 cents
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#17 Chubbsmalone

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 04:34 PM

Also - Internal Bleeding hits super hard on WoD beta
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#18 HeyimJack

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 04:38 PM

Just something to add on here...

After playing a ton of WoD beta I feel pretty confident in saying Anticipation will be superior to MfD in 3s. The changes to honor among thieves, combo points on the rogue, and the slower playstyle all seem make MfD less valuable.

We get combo points like they are going out of style in WoD. Quite often, you will suddenly find yourself with 2-3 stacks of anticipation due to random crits from teammates. I would be pooling energy for 3-4 seconds preparing for a burst, and out of no where I would gain another 2 combo points. This happened all the time.

Also, it's extremely easy to set up a scenario where you can kidney and immediately evis with Anticipation (how most people use MfD) due to how easily the combo points come in WoD.

Just my 2 cents

Not going to comment on anything until I try it myself don't want to throw random opinions on here that might not be correct but thanks anyway :)
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#19 varellz

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 04:41 PM

fan of knives perk is super crazy with anticipation too
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#20 Hyuru

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 04:42 PM

Not going to comment on anything until I try it myself don't want to throw random opinions on here that might not be correct but thanks anyway :)

Should still update enchants friend.
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