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Experience with Frost in WoD


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#1

Posted 15 August 2014 - 01:00 AM

First and foremost, I'm not a top level mage so take my info with a grain a salt, but wanted to share my thoughts since there hasn't been much discussion in this forum about mages in WoD other than some complaint threads.  

Mages feel pretty strong and will definitely be viable and share a somewhat similar playstyle, but with some changes. Mainly, deep freeze is no longer usable offensively as the damage threshold is extremely low(I've had the water ele bolt break it most times) so mages will probably gravitate to teammates who can stun/control the kill target.  Also no Living Bomb so we have to cast a bit more, including Frost Bomb. Any melee/mage/healer seems like it could potentially work.  Synergy with casters like lock/ele/spriest is still decent, but I sense might not be as good since you can't center kills around deep freeze anymore.  I could be wrong, but thats what it feels like now.

Overall consistent damage feels very low, but burst can be pretty insane if lined up properly.  Similar to live, burst centers around Frozen Orb.  Best burst scenario seems to be: stack icicles -> Drop Prismatic Crystal on the kill target -> teammate stun in place -> Frost Bomb on the Crystal -> Frozen orb -> spam ice lance procs into the crystal.  If it all lines up and the target can't get out of stun, I've taken stuff from 100-20% by myself.  throw in a teammate dps and shit dies.

In between orbs you don't seem to have all that much damage, although Mirror Images hit very hard and last for a good 40s I think.  I've ice blocked with a dps on me at 30% health and Mirror Images + water ele finished them off within the time I sat in block.  Granted, they were bad and Images are easy to LoS but their damage will probably get nerfed.

Control is still decent. Of course the DR changes affect everyone, but mages didn't get hit too hard with their own CC.  Still have RoF, same novas, and spammable poly.  Loss of Imp CS takes some getting used to, but with more casting in general it was the right thing to do and was needed. We should have good synergy with most classes that aren't heavily reliant on the Incapacitate DR category(aka hunters, maybe monks)

I definitely miss some of the other abilities that got pruned as well.  No more Mana Gem or Evocation means we have no way of getting back mana other than natural regen.  Spellsteal is still strong, but with no reliable mana regen, it has to be used much more sparingly (most other classes will be happy with this).  Also the loss of fire blast is actually quite noteworthy also.  Without Living Bomb we have no good way to get rid of reflect or grounding.  The only 3 single target instant casts we have are Ice Lance, Spellsteal, and Counterspell.  None of which are good to waste on reflect or grounding except in certain situations.  Finally, the loss of the other AE abilities - ArcEx and Flamestrike are not a huge deal, but would be nice to still have the PBAoE.

Without deep freeze as an offensive ability, I've found it much harder to kill people in 1v1 situations in arena when there is LoS.   I might just be bad, but most melee classes who know how to hug pillars and how to avoid orb/crystal become very hard to kill, especially if they have freedoms/snare/root breakers.  

As far as talents, I typically use Blazing Speed, Ice Barrier, RoF, Cold Snap, Frost Bomb, Images, Pris Crystal.  Sometimes I will change it up and use Alter Time vs a team with no purge, or even Flameglow vs a very purge-happy comp.  I don't think there is much variation or debate about the rest.  Perhaps Ice Floes might come in off the bench against a comp where you don't need Blazing Speed since it doesn't seem too bad with cooldown structure similar to Feathers.

The only glyph that feels mandatory is polymorph.  Since we no longer have armors, I'm pretty sure most mages will use one of the 2 ice block glyphs (can't use both at the same time).  Regenerative Ice is good and heals a decent amount but you have to sit in block the whole time to take full advantage.  I'm guessing most with go with the standard ice block glyph in 3s unless you know you will need to sit in block and the opposing comp doesn't have an immunity removal.  Last glyph will probably be Deep Freeze.  Nothing else really feels game-breaking.  

Finally, if the classes that are currently strong/op go live, my thoughts on viable comps would be anything with a resto druid:
RMD, WMD, DKMD, RetMD, God Comp will not be nearly as obnoxious, but might be viable.
or things like
Mage+Boomkin+Healer
Mage+Feral+Healer
RMP and MLS/D should still work too

Curious if any good mages have any thoughts on WoD if anyone is playing on Beta. Hope this helps someone or starts some discussion that doesn't just including bitching or trolling!

#2 Nesha

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 08:53 AM

Hi Wayreth, thanks a lot for your input!
While I am not on the Beta myself, this is exactly what i've been looking for.

Have you had the time to test arcane as well? I read through some of the patchnotes and arcane was looking very appealing (it might be wishful thinking). I'm generally interested in hearing about potential damage output, CC, survivability, "ramp-up time", and the viability of arcane compared to frost.

Thanks for your well-written post!

#3 Speedymart

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 09:00 AM

Looks like number tuning is happening with the next build. Hopefully frostbolt does significant enough damage that a mage free casting it would be scary like wrath
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#4

Posted 15 August 2014 - 12:57 PM

I haven't tried Arcane yet, I've been meaning to actually.  The strongest aspect of Arcane from what I've seen against the very few Arcane mages I have come across, is the ability to spam spellsteal since mana doesn't seem to be an issue.  They seem to suffer the same trouble they have on live that they are pretty easy to train to the ground.

I'm hoping number tuning in general smoothes out some of the numbers in general.  I'd be ok if frostbolt hit a bit harder but from what I'm told, Frost is pretty strong in pve, so I dunno how much we can expect to see, especially with the burst potential we have currently.  I'm more concerned with numbers with other classes.  Balance druid 60-70k starsturges(instant cast now with 3 charges on 45s cooldown), Frost DK 60-70k oblits, Warriors MS/CS/Execute, Ret with Wings+Seraphim is one of the scariest dmg output out there.  On the flipside you have Hunters tickling people with 13k explosive shots or Lava Burst critting for 15k etc.

#5 xbclass

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 06:41 PM

I've played the beta a fuckton and have glad xp on live, 200+ days play time on mage.

Right now the mage class feels like it'll have it's place somewhere mid-tier, and it's incredibly awkward and unfun. It's just too gimmicky with the new changes. Currently, mages really only have two ways to kill other classes: prismatic crystal burst, and well-timed images.

Mirror images hit for around 20k damage per bolt which is the same as the mages own frostbolt. It lasts forever and can literally solo a class if it's not dealt with (detailed below). Using them honestly makes me feel like a scumlord hunter pressing stampede.
Prismatic crystal is also much too strong. If you can keep someone in it, you can setup your damage and literally 100-0 them with a few ice lances.

Now, you might be thinking, mages sound really fucking strong, why are you putting them mid-tier? Well, both of these spells are easily dealt with. Mirror Images have a low health pool so any self-respecting melee can kill them pretty easily and ALL of the damage from crystal can be avoided with a trinket, dispel, or other defensive. And this creates a problem for balance because without these abilities mages are one of the weakest classes in the game, having only sporadic ice lance damage and playing mostly to survive. Keep in mind that other classes are still competitive with mages, maybe even better, without such silly things, and you start to realize just how bad mage really is this expac. You basically have a class that's incredibly strong, maybe even the best in the game when you play against people who don't know what they're doing, but it's absolute shit otherwise.

Something that a lot of mages are missing is that the new Frostjaw is the best talent in it's row (over Ring of Frost and Ice Ward). It's a one second cast that silences and roots for 4 seconds. It's NEEDED to set up crystal combo, plain and simple, since DF breaks. It's also very strong against enemy casters as a silence defensive since it's only on a twenty second cd and it gives an extra frost bomb ice lance shatter, which are harder to get in WoD.

And that's frost.

Fire is also bad, at least currently. However, before last patch it was pretty good and at least fun. Casting scorch gave you a buff that decreased the cast time of fireball by 15%, up to 3 times, and increased it's crit chance. So you could actually build up damage by casting to set up for fireball into pyro, for the first time in fucking forever, and they changed it for god only knows the fuck why. A lot of people will latch onto the whole DB dr'ing with poly as being a downfall to fire but it felt really really good before. If it didn't DR fire would have way too much survivability (scorch movespeed, blazing, ice barrier, ice ward, blink + blink reset). And as most of you know DF and shatter were removed from fire.

I've played arcane enough to say that I think it's weaker in PvP than both fire and frost, but I haven't played it since they made some changes. Maybe I'll do that sometime and let you guys know what I think.

#6 zenton

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 09:18 PM

Some questions to you Beta-player guys-

Is old shatter combo yet again viable with the DF change? Or Frostbolt does still too low dmg compared to FO + ince lances?
How is the balance between casting / interrupting and kiting / connecting? How strong are instants compared to casted spells overall? Is it necessary / rewarding to fake cast alot (like in BC or Wotlk in some situations)?
Also; how are the other talents? Thinking there of Ice Nova (I realy dislike the whole mage bomb idea for frost..), Incanter's Flow and Comet Storm.

#7 xbclass

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 10:26 PM

View Postzenton, on 17 August 2014 - 09:18 PM, said:

Some questions to you Beta-player guys-

Is old shatter combo yet again viable with the DF change? Or Frostbolt does still too low dmg compared to FO + ince lances?
How is the balance between casting / interrupting and kiting / connecting? How strong are instants compared to casted spells overall? Is it necessary / rewarding to fake cast alot (like in BC or Wotlk in some situations)?
Also; how are the other talents? Thinking there of Ice Nova (I realy dislike the whole mage bomb idea for frost..), Incanter's Flow and Comet Storm.

You can shatter, still. You have to cast more because you don't have unlimited ice lance procs, so you will be using the 'old shatter' more.

As a mage, you really only need to dodge interrupts when you're casting into, or to get ready for, Prismatic. It's always beneficial to juke when you can, but in WoD only one school gets interrupted. So, if frost gets interrupted you can still cast frostfire bolt, blazing speed, blink, etc without any delay. Having a melee on you in WoD might be worse than in mists. You really just try to stay away from them, especially warrior.

I've seen some mages using Ice Nova, and it works as it says, but you really need Frost Bomb for damage.

Incanter's flow is just shit in comparison to mirror images.

Comet storm feels out of place. I wish they did something to make it more attractive, but I'm not sure what. The damage is comparable to an ice lance frost bomb crit, and for a 30 second cooldown it's just too long.

#8 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 17 August 2014 - 10:31 PM

View Postxbclass, on 17 August 2014 - 10:26 PM, said:

I've seen some mages using Ice Nova, and it works as it says, but you really need Frost Bomb for damage.
frost bomb is currently doing around 45%-50% of frost mage damage in beta testing, compared to unstable magic / ice nova doing around 5%

its going to get absolutely slaughtered in damage tuning, then the other two talents on the row might see some more usage :) similarly with prismatic crystal, which is also strong in pvp because of how well it synergises with frost bomb

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 17 August 2014 - 11:24 PM.

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#9

Posted 18 August 2014 - 12:10 AM

I agree that the damage being avoidable is going to be the biggest issue.  As mentioned the damage in between Orb/Crystal is almost non existent.  

You can still shatter into a deep freeze but since the damage threshold is so low, if a water ele bolt lands during the frostbolt cast it will usually break the deep and negate the shatter.  Even if you land the shatter, its nothing scary enough to really present much of a threat, when you consider a balance druid could cast one of his 3 charges of instant cast starsurge and do double the damage of the shatter.

#10 KILLATON

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 01:56 PM

View Postxbclass, on 17 August 2014 - 06:41 PM, said:

I've played the beta a fuckton and have glad xp on live, 200+ days play time on mage.

Right now the mage class feels like it'll have it's place somewhere mid-tier, and it's incredibly awkward and unfun. It's just too gimmicky with the new changes. Currently, mages really only have two ways to kill other classes: prismatic crystal burst, and well-timed images.

Mirror images hit for around 20k damage per bolt which is the same as the mages own frostbolt. It lasts forever and can literally solo a class if it's not dealt with (detailed below). Using them honestly makes me feel like a scumlord hunter pressing stampede.
Prismatic crystal is also much too strong. If you can keep someone in it, you can setup your damage and literally 100-0 them with a few ice lances.

Now, you might be thinking, mages sound really fucking strong, why are you putting them mid-tier? Well, both of these spells are easily dealt with. Mirror Images have a low health pool so any self-respecting melee can kill them pretty easily and ALL of the damage from crystal can be avoided with a trinket, dispel, or other defensive. And this creates a problem for balance because without these abilities mages are one of the weakest classes in the game, having only sporadic ice lance damage and playing mostly to survive. Keep in mind that other classes are still competitive with mages, maybe even better, without such silly things, and you start to realize just how bad mage really is this expac. You basically have a class that's incredibly strong, maybe even the best in the game when you play against people who don't know what they're doing, but it's absolute shit otherwise.

Something that a lot of mages are missing is that the new Frostjaw is the best talent in it's row (over Ring of Frost and Ice Ward). It's a one second cast that silences and roots for 4 seconds. It's NEEDED to set up crystal combo, plain and simple, since DF breaks. It's also very strong against enemy casters as a silence defensive since it's only on a twenty second cd and it gives an extra frost bomb ice lance shatter, which are harder to get in WoD.

And that's frost.

Fire is also bad, at least currently. However, before last patch it was pretty good and at least fun. Casting scorch gave you a buff that decreased the cast time of fireball by 15%, up to 3 times, and increased it's crit chance. So you could actually build up damage by casting to set up for fireball into pyro, for the first time in fucking forever, and they changed it for god only knows the fuck why. A lot of people will latch onto the whole DB dr'ing with poly as being a downfall to fire but it felt really really good before. If it didn't DR fire would have way too much survivability (scorch movespeed, blazing, ice barrier, ice ward, blink + blink reset). And as most of you know DF and shatter were removed from fire.

I've played arcane enough to say that I think it's weaker in PvP than both fire and frost, but I haven't played it since they made some changes. Maybe I'll do that sometime and let you guys know what I think.

The mirror images is the same as in wotlk, vs hunters 1v1 i used to let mirrors and WE solo hunter down to 10% while LoS and Block
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#11 zenton

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 09:47 PM

Thanks for responses. I'm realy unhappy that frostbomb + prism combo is so much superior than the other talent choices. Would love to see some real flexibilty in our talent tree... (for mages, I feel the old trees were miles better in this case).

Breaking the DF with Waterbolt seems a minor issue to me as you can always stop the elemental's cast.. Speaking of, wasn't so that when you polymorph'd someone then the mid-air Waterbolt wouldn't break poly? Did they changed this? I'm asking because it tends to break it every time so I have to chill down my elemental when I want to poly the target he's shooting at.

#12 AlcaMage

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 09:48 AM

After reading some of the WoD Changes, I thought hey, why not come back and play... this was a huge mistake, since WoD Mage is basically the worst I have ever played

Rank 1 and Tournament Experienced mage
Just did duels and 2on2 so far. (keybinds get deleted all the time :()
-
xbclass summed some things up pretty well

You are basically playing a TBC Mage versus MOP enemies.


TALENTS:

- Evanesce seemed awesome, like a vanish for mages, to play around and do some clutch stuff, but I dont know if it is bugged, but you can get stunned, silenced, kicked during evan...
-> you lose iceblock and also the two best glyphs (the only healing glyph for example)
-> dots tick aswell
-> you lose blazing speed

- alter time seems rather pointless, because it is still dispellable, should make CD to 1min and duration to 3-4 seconds so you can negate burst, but it can get dispelled, or to use it for clutch positioning plays
-> Ice Barrier seems to be the better option at the moment, maybe flame glow in 3s

- frostjaw seems better than Ring of frost at the moment

- coldsnap is the obvious choice

- frostbomb, without a doubt.

- Mirror Images are very strong, they are doing a lot of damage and provide good utility against melees, cooldown to long and they are easily killable
-> didnt play around with incanters flow yet

- so far so good, until the level 100 talents, which are annoying and not fun at all
-> comet storm is useless, does practially NO damage, we either need cometstorm to trigger frostbomb or cometstorm giving us a chance for procs, as it is currently ... its crap

-> prismatic crystal is strong, the only spell which lets you solo someone
-> thermal void would be great if icy veins wouldnt be dispellable (with multistrike glyph you can do alot of damage and it can last forever)


Glyphs: nothing special here
Polymorph
one of the ice block glyphs, the healing one for duels and 2on2 without an healer
the other one for 3s
frostnova, to revert the cooldown increase
spellsteal maybe in some cases, but you cant really get many steals off without evo/managem
deepfreeze to get polys off faster


----
Playstyle

The main problem with mage and wow in general is that the game doesnt even try to be fun anymore, all the things that made game fun in the first place are getting removed.
(like it is on live with living bomb, which is not fun at all)

Mage is very strong if you have a target which is afk or not moving at all... every class has good enough mobility to avoid mage damage
You need Orb/Mirrors/Crystal and a frostbomb on the crystal to do damage

-> Orb can be avoided by just moving away (burst of speed, charge, jump, shapeshifting, blink etc) since we dont have deep anymore
-> Crystal has the same issue and has one more, you have to apply a frostbomb on the crystal, which means you have to juke all kicks/csses first before you cast the crystal, because juking when the crystal is already cast gives the team enough time to just move away from it
-> mirrors .... well, It´s like a stampede hunter, I want to do damage, not my pets, thats just such a stupid mechanic, also they can just get outstrafed at pillars or killed...

It seems like I cant kill anything by myself, which means you need to play with a rogue or any class that can immobilize targets for you...
with the longer duration kidney + orb + crystal, everything will die (except resto druids, who are stronger than in TBC) if their is no interrupt on you or trinket / def cd on the target.

I´m losing duels to rogues who play the class for the first time, simply because they just spam BOS till they are on you and you cant do damage without peels.
You have to spam lances while moving since they increased the damage, but hey a FOF Icelance does 12k damage (characters have 300k+ hp)


What spells do I really miss?
Arcane Explosion, I dont know why they removed it, we had it for 10 years and I dont see any reason for it

What I hate the most?
The level 100 talents and the playstyle and mobility of rogues at the moment (bos needs to go, death from above is like shadowstep, rogues have 100% uptime)

The new casting animation looks like a mongoloid (for undeads)
I played the class mainly because of the cool casting animation and they just changed it, I hope there will be addons/that can revert it to the old looks

Oh and make frostbomb undispellable,otherwise pointless.

#13 AlcaMage

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 06:27 AM

View PostAlcaMage, on 19 August 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:



- alter time seems rather pointless, because it is still dispellable, should make CD to 1min and duration to 3-4 seconds so you can negate burst, but it can get dispelled, or to use it for clutch positioning plays
-> Ice Barrier seems to be the better option at the moment, maybe flame glow in 3s


fkin called it :D

  • Presence of Mind is no longer a talent, and is now learned by only Arcane Mages.

  • Evanesce is a new Talent available at level 15, replacing Presence of Mind.

  • Alter Time now lasts for 10 15 seconds (up from 6 seconds), has a 90-second cooldown (down from 3 minutes), and no longer affects the Mage’s mana, buffs, or debuffs.

  • The Brain Freeze effect now increases Frostfire Bolt's damage by 15% 25%, and can now stack up to 2 times. It also no longer triggers from the Bomb Talents, and instead has a 10% chance to trigger from Frostbolt casts. Each Multistrike of Frostbolt increases that cast's chance by an additional 25%. (Total of 60% on double-Multistrikes).


#14 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 06:53 AM

View PostAlcaMage, on 20 August 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

fkin called it :D
it got changed from 15 seconds duration to 10 seconds, everything else stayed exactly the same as it was already on beta, how is that an I CALLED IT :)

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 20 August 2014 - 06:53 AM.

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#15 AlcaMage

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 07:19 AM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 20 August 2014 - 06:53 AM, said:

it got changed from 15 seconds duration to 10 seconds, everything else stayed exactly the same as it was already on beta, how is that an I CALLED IT :)

didnt they change the cooldown? anyway

#16 watchmepwn

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 07:21 AM

I don't know what to say about it. I havn't played WOD myself so I cant tell on personal experience.
But I find it hard to believe that they make an expansion where Frostmages isn't a thing anymore.

I kinda hate the down sizing of our abilities a lot, especially when casting is STILL not rewarded. I wan't to do the oldskool shatter combo's again, thats what made me play mage in the first place. But as we all know, numbers are yet to be tweaked, since if they buff Frostbolt and reward the shatter combo with numbers, it has become a real thing.

Guess we'll have to see!

#17 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 10:21 AM

View PostAlcaMage, on 20 August 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:



didnt they change the cooldown? anyway
The notes you linked are the total combined changes to the spell from mop to wod, the only thing they changed in either the previous build or the build before was the duration to 10 secs from 15 secs, the cooldown has been 90 seconds since the start of beta :)

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#18 AlcaMage

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 11:26 AM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 20 August 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

The notes you linked are the total combined changes to the spell from mop to wod, the only thing they changed in either the previous build or the build before was the duration to 10 secs from 15 secs, the cooldown has been 90 seconds since the start of beta :)

so its a nerf not a buff... mage doesnt need any more nerfs currently :(

#19 Icyfresh420

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 02:22 PM

View Postwatchmepwn, on 20 August 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

I don't know what to say about it. I havn't played WOD myself so I cant tell on personal experience.
But I find it hard to believe that they make an expansion where Frostmages isn't a thing anymore.

I kinda hate the down sizing of our abilities a lot, especially when casting is STILL not rewarded. I wan't to do the oldskool shatter combo's again, thats what made me play mage in the first place. But as we all know, numbers are yet to be tweaked, since if they buff Frostbolt and reward the shatter combo with numbers, it has become a real thing.

Guess we'll have to see!
As long as they keep frost with that shitty icicle mastery they pulled out of their ass frostbolts are never going to be doing shatter combo like damage again
Why?
Because if they tweaked numbers to make frostbolt hit an actual amount of damage that doesnt make it a giant waste of time to cast
You have icicles hitting for ridiculous amounts and one shotting
Now blizzard could increase the damage of frostbolt and frostfire while at the same time reducing the % mastery of icicles
But let's be real for a second, that's too complicated for blizzard
So we can look forward to another expansion of ICELANCE ICELANCE ICELANCE ICELANCE ICELANCE

Edited by Icyfresh420, 20 August 2014 - 02:27 PM.

That feeling when you're charging up a shatter
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#20 Lolflay

Lolflay
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Posted 20 August 2014 - 02:32 PM

Unrelated, AlcaMage = Alca from TBC ? If so, nice fights back then :)

Quote

[13:49:14] Creed: u have 20min to find a healer, going for a jog
[13:49:53] Creed: nothing like running through the bush being chased by wild animals to get a proper workout
[13:50:01] Creed: you europeans and ur silly gyms




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