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Holy Paladin in WoD, gameplay in arena.


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#81 Gigana

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 08:37 AM

View PostVolb, on 22 October 2014 - 10:43 PM, said:

Eternal flame literally will not save your teammate if youre sitting a full sheep. Also you're playing a paladin, play the class right and work on positioning as opposed to relying on 1 ability to cover for you while you sit cc.
There's no such positioning in the game that can save you from instant ranged CC that's followed by more instant-ranged CC and/or casted CC.

EF was just an example. Obviously everyone will play with sacred shield.
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#82 fonekcef

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 02:21 PM

View PostVolb, on 22 October 2014 - 10:43 PM, said:

you're implying that having to use an ability quite often in order to promote better play is a bad thing? It's a playstyle preference, I enjoy it and it rewards me quite well for staying ontop of things. Also execution sentence numbers @ what lvl, 90, 100, beta, prepatch?
edit: Just for some current number, live: execution healed for 40k, and prism healed for 18k. All non crits ofc. So I'm curious where youre getting these numbers??

On beta with 667 ilvl, holy prism heals a friendly target for 23k while execution sentence heals for 37k (are you sure you are not reading the damage values for execution sentence?) Not to mention execution sentence has 3 times the cooldown of holy prism. Seems to me like holy prism is the clear winner here.

And im not saying judging for selfless healer procs is a bad thing, it just can be hard to manage.

#83 Gigana

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 12:38 PM

How good is Glyph of Merciful Wrath on 100? I'm using it on live and I think it's the best thing ever. With sanctified wrath, can be used basically every time opponents go ham.

Also, I find Pursuit of Justice works great in 2s vs healer/dps teams.
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#84 Volb

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 02:04 PM

View Postfonekcef, on 24 October 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

On beta with 667 ilvl, holy prism heals a friendly target for 23k while execution sentence heals for 37k (are you sure you are not reading the damage values for execution sentence?) Not to mention execution sentence has 3 times the cooldown of holy prism. Seems to me like holy prism is the clear winner here.

And im not saying judging for selfless healer procs is a bad thing, it just can be hard to manage.
These are LIVE values, as mentioned before. I don't have beta access.
Execution: http://i.imgur.com/AaPc2Vy.jpg
Prism: http://i.imgur.com/Ob7tE1r.jpg

Both w.o any procs ofc, with full pvp gear(550).


View PostGigana, on 26 October 2014 - 12:38 PM, said:

How good is Glyph of Merciful Wrath on 100? I'm using it on live and I think it's the best thing ever. With sanctified wrath, can be used basically every time opponents go ham.

Also, I find Pursuit of Justice works great in 2s vs healer/dps teams.
A passive low speed buff over an on demand large speed buff. Pretty sure speed of light will almost be the more popular choice in any scenario.




edit: also am I just crazy or did they bring back crusader strike granting 1 HP as holy. I swear they took that out during like s14/s15 or something.

Edited by Volb, 26 October 2014 - 02:27 PM.


#85 Gigana

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 03:21 PM

View PostVolb, on 26 October 2014 - 02:04 PM, said:

edit: also am I just crazy or did they bring back crusader strike granting 1 HP as holy. I swear they took that out during like s14/s15 or something.
Crusader strike always gave 1hp for as long as I remember, including s15.
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#86 Volb

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 03:24 PM

I could have sworn I read that it was being changed or had been changed. Perhaps it was reverted then; that or I'm mistaking it for something else.

#87 Gigana

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 12:24 AM

A couple questions about WoD holy:

- is there even any reason to ever use holy light? It heals the same as fol, but doesn't have the glyph, so unless mana is an issue, it's worse than fol in every way.

- how do you survive being trained by more than 2 dps? even in random BGs, I feel totally helpless when 4+ guys go on me, it's simply impossible to cast anything with that amount of interrupts going on.

- how good is glyph of merciful wrath on 100?

- level 100 talents? Are they good and which one is commonly used for 3s/RBGs?
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#88 boatznhoez

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 02:13 AM

How does mana regen feel on 100? I assume mana should be a problem assuming we won't be using WoG as much. How do we do while getting trained? It should be pretty bad without as much instant casts.

#89 Jim_Jim

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 09:26 AM

Quote

A couple questions about WoD holy:

- is there even any reason to ever use holy light? It heals the same as fol, but doesn't have the glyph, so unless mana is an issue, it's worse than fol in every way.

- how do you survive being trained by more than 2 dps? even in random BGs, I feel totally helpless when 4+ guys go on me, it's simply impossible to cast anything with that amount of interrupts going on.

- how good is glyph of merciful wrath on 100?

- level 100 talents? Are they good and which one is commonly used for 3s/RBGs?

Holy Light = Faster flash of Light with less mana.
WoG = Free flash of slightly better Light.
Flash of Light = Worse flash heal of all healer because of Beacon(s) taxe and Mastery.

Holy light is just the spell to use after a proc if you want to minimize the risk of being counterspelled. But yeah the healing model is not as fun as MoP, where we had to heal smartly. (Switching beacon all the time, put Eternal flame on everyone to have more healing, use EF on no-beacon people to heal 2 people for free.). In WoD, it will be a flash of light fest.

Honestly, i think we can't survive being trained by 2 peoples if we are alone and without a perfect fake casting and/or Avenging Wrath, we HAVE to be protected by our mates. Especially with the new server latency, less tolerent with kicks and cs. I planned to play ww/dk (frost or uh)/pal, and training hpal will be i think a really good strat.

Perhaps the merciful wrath glyph (the one who reduce everything by 50% right?) can help, i don't know. We have lot of good glyph this xpac, so it will be hard to choose = beacon, flash, denounce, freedom, holy shock, m.wrath...

The level 100 talent are all good for arenas. My favorite is Saved by the light for the moment. Beacon of faith will be in my opinion better against dotcleave (if they exist of course, combined with purity) and in RBG, and Beacon of Insight can be useful but is really clunky to use. The last time i tried, it bounces on every heal, even from your mates.

I'm afraid that "Train the Pink" will be the new trend :(

(And please welcome the prot war in the "i can dispel all your gameplay" club.)

But don't forget we have forbearance at 30s at level 100, so we can survive more than others (with BoP/Divine Shield), even with our pityful heals. Shaman and monks doesn't have this. So, don't be sad :D
Of course it's only my opinion, perhaps i'm totally wrong. It's hard to test on beta because people don't want to try others things, and talents. I don't know about monks (all spec), shaman because i didn't face any of them.

Edited by Jim_Jim, 27 October 2014 - 10:06 AM.

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#90 Gigana

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 10:09 AM

JimJim, whenever you post in a hpala discussion, I +rep first, read second. I am yet to regret it. :)

Lol, I actually haven't noticed that holy light with proc is a faster cast than fol. That makes sense. WoG still seems worse than FoL to me due to lack of glyph and mana being a non-issue, but I guess if we replace FoL glyph on 100 with something else, WoG might become the more preferable option.

Yes, the merciful wrath is the one that reduces wings by 50%. I find it's insane because it makes wings 1.5min cd. On prepatch the healing from it is still huge, and with talent it lasts 30 seconds. So theoretically we can spend 1/3rd of an arena match with wings up. You literally have wings ready for every burst phase from enemy team, and at 30 sec duration it lasts longer than most offensive CDs. Add to that the lowered cd and no-gcd on sacrifice, and I guess we'll be able to match their CDs with our own every time.

So far thanks to merc wrath, I managed to survive TSG, kittycleave, and RMD training me all game. Most had red enchants, too, so I guess they weren't total baddies. I just hope its healing isn't going to be too low on 100.

Also, is it true they lowered forbearance duration to 30 sec, or is that just something I dreamed up, lol?
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#91 Jim_Jim

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 10:43 AM

I suggest you to not judge holy pal with this patch, because everything is overpowered, for everyone. Even without wings, we have powerfull heal because of PvP power still active, and a crazy amount of mastery. I have twice as much mastery compared to the pre-patch. (Look at the disc shield, it's a entire health bar sometimes)
With Avenging Wrath active, it's more like 80% of overhealing, so it's not a good way to judge the glyph :D

Forbearance at 30s is a perk we gain during the leveling. We have 4 of this perks :

- Forbearance at 30s
- +10% more healing on the beacon.
- Daybreak +100% (PvE stuff.)
- Holy Light and Flash of light have 10% chance to make your next Holy shock not trigger his CD (Like in Cataclysm, but holy shock is not a good heal anymore)

Our healing numbers will not be as good as now at level 100 (Compared to healthpools.).

I still don't understand what "+rep" means :D
(And what it does)

I'm not worry about Hpal to be honest (because i have good mates to play with :( ). I think it will be more difficult for people who wants to give a try, because with all this cast, all the still-dispellable buffs, it can be really frustrative to play (with) a Hpal.

Oh, and Draenei gift of the naaru is really good, especially with the new 2 part. Steal someone's crit, use the gift, and enjoy your ~60% chance of crit hot :D

Edited by Jim_Jim, 27 October 2014 - 10:47 AM.

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#92 Gigana

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 10:59 AM

I don't understand how the +10% healing on beacon works. Does it mean +10% more transferred healing onto beacon, or +10% bonus healing when I'm directly healing the beacon target?

That 10% chance instant holy shock seems like pretty stupid design, tbh. Not high enough chance to make it reliable, yet high enough to allow for game-changing rng procs. Kinda like the reflect meta. Also, seems like another reason to spam flash of light.

+rep is the same as likes on facebook, favorites on twitter, thumbs up on youtube, etc. I think.

You're not worried hpala is going to be replaced in arena/rbg by resto druids?
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#93 Jim_Jim

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 12:25 PM

I think it's +10% healing if you heal the beacon himself.
Yes, 10% chance to have a miserable instant healing spell for having a chance to proc a faster flash of light is not reliable and will not change your games. (Or perhaps in ONE game after 100 others games). But it's always appreciated to have 2 holy shock.

I'm not worried about being replaced by rdruids in RBG. (Rdruids complains about offensive dispel now that they have only 1 stack of lifebloom haha.). I think we still have our spot here for our support spells (Sacrifice, BoP, freedom, beacon(s)), and our healing burst (every 3min.). But yes, prepare yourself to be trained. :D

For arena, i am less sure, considering melees are really good this season compared to the previous, paladin is good choice to face or play meleecleave but we still have "meh" heals, our crowd control will still be hard to use (because we have to move near the target, without any heal during this action, compared to rdruid who can just blink, try to cc, and with the biggest heal - direct and hot - in the game).
People complains about melees mobility, so why take a hpal when they already have mobility? No reason to pick an unstable healer who will be trained all day. I don't know. I have mixted feeling about Hpal. Good and bad at the same time.

We'll see. But i think monks, and perhaps shaman (because of train the blue) are in a worse state than us.

I'm more worried about being replaced by a disc priest in meleecleave. Since they add Silence (._.) for disc priest, they are a great choice (if not the best choice) for 2 melees when it comes to train a healer. Imagine facing a russian feral/dk/priest, both of them have kick bot, both of them have a stun, TWO silences (I don't know if it still here in WoD, but asphyxiate a target immune with dr will transform asphyxiate in strangulate), and a mass dispel.
It will be a nightmare, especially for people without the new stoneform racial. (Remove EVERYTHING, including silence)

Edited by Jim_Jim, 27 October 2014 - 12:32 PM.

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#94 Juther

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 01:26 PM

View PostJim_Jim, on 27 October 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

both of them have kick bot,

what is that?


Merciful Wrath seems a great glyph indeed, btw i decide my Glyphs when Pvp Bonus set will be definied ( prolly they will be changed for the new season, the 4pieces seems so placeholder to me ).

#95 Gigana

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 01:53 PM

View PostJuther, on 27 October 2014 - 01:26 PM, said:

what is that?
You can setup a bot to cast rebuke when specific casts are on 90% for example.

Let's say you setup it to cast rebuke on Flash Heal the moment Flash Heal gets to 90% cast, you essentially guarantee a successful rebuke on every Flash Heal as long as your priest target is in melee range. This way you're impossible to juke (because the bot program reacts faster than a human being ever could, especially now with improved input), and the enemy caster has no choice but to eat the full interrupt.

This is just one of the many bots I've seen Russians use. I've personally been on the receiving end of a purge bot (on 1700 mmr no less) where the enemy shaman INSTANTLY purged freedom, bop, and sac as long as I cast them while in LoS of him. Like, I would cast freedom, but the bot would purge it so fast I wouldn't even see the buff go up. Ofc, I figured out what he was doing so I would just LoS him before casting, and then he'd let freedom/bop/sac go on for full duration with no purge. I doubt the guy even knew what and when his bot was purging.

Similar thing happened vs a DK, who INSTANTLY used icebound/ams whenever I HoJ-ed him. Like, the instant I HoJ-ed he would be out of it, as if I didn't use HoJ at all, rofl, he wouldn't spend even 0.5 sec in it.
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