Jump to content

Ret on Beta


  • Please log in to reply
405 replies to this topic

#181 Animefreak3K

Animefreak3K
  • Members
  • Posts: 153

Posted 15 August 2014 - 08:38 PM

DK's heal too much, as always :/ .
I can't repeate myself too much, but percentual Healings have to be tuned down to 1% (every 2 sec.).
Since Heals aren't effected by battle fatigue anymore, the amount of healing is just too high.

Seraphim can be really good, can... :) .
Pushed my Damage to +70 @660 Itemlevel. Was really n1^^.

FV ist still very good, but it needs to crit, to hurt your enemies.

I feel that lack too, pretty hard!
But, we won't die so fast, so it's always a chance to survive :) .

Yeah, mentioned that in the Alpha, is pretty cool, not like on live.
Your're right, I've always confused (since MoP Beta), why this happend....

#182 Crono_Smash

Crono_Smash
  • Members
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Nemesis
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 182
  • Talents: Retribution 1/0/0/2/0/2/.
  • 2v2: 1764
  • 3v3: 1742
  • 5v5: 192
  • RBG: 1800

Posted 16 August 2014 - 02:33 AM

Just posting for the record.

It's from tooltip, so it could be wrong, OK?

FV hit for 20k
DS hit for 4,8k
EmpDS hit for 7,2k
FV DS hit for 9,6k
FV + EmpDS hit for 14,5k

Just so we know the proportions. It's worth to wait to DS after you FV when you have a EmpDS proc, of course.

FV DS without the proc, is worth only when there is 3 enemies arround.

EmpDS is 7,2k for free, so YEY! But if we have FV we should really try to FV before spending/using it.

If we get a FV+EmpDS, with 2 people arround is already the best option. On RBGs, this really make a huge pressure. Of course there is luck involved, but regardless.

FV = 20k
FV + EmpDS = 15k on 1 enemy

FV + EmpDS = 30k on 2 enemies

FV + EmpDS = 45k on 3 enemies

FV + EmpDS = 60k on 4 enemies

FV + EmpDS = 75k on 5 enemies

FV + EmpDS = 90k on 6 enemies

That's some scalable pressure right there. And if you're lucky enough, using DP could repeat a couple of times. Or with HA, some serious raping should take place.
Posted Image

-> In short: "Balance is make 6-7 specs balanced to compete and let the rest nerfed but make it playable so maybe some exeptional professional players can compete with a nerfed spec." = Blizz supports FOTM.

#183 Crono_Smash

Crono_Smash
  • Members
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Nemesis
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 182
  • Talents: Retribution 1/0/0/2/0/2/.
  • 2v2: 1764
  • 3v3: 1742
  • 5v5: 192
  • RBG: 1800

Posted 16 August 2014 - 02:38 AM

FV with HA:

EmpDS proc
AW + HA
FV
EmpDS + FV
HoW
FV
(right here if you have a proc = win, else just do the normal burst)

TL;DR: Enemy trinkets and CDs poping everywhere.
Posted Image

-> In short: "Balance is make 6-7 specs balanced to compete and let the rest nerfed but make it playable so maybe some exeptional professional players can compete with a nerfed spec." = Blizz supports FOTM.

#184 Gigana

Gigana
  • Junkies
  • Taurenclass_name
  • EU-Stormscale
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 476
  • Talents: Holy 0/2/1/2/2/0
  • 2v2: 1997
  • 3v3: 2187
  • 5v5: 1243
  • RBG: 2232

Posted 16 August 2014 - 03:29 PM

Nice. Hope you're right. Frankly, I can't wait to play level 100 RBGs. :]

Are they tweaking prot yet?
Posted Image

#185 Crono_Smash

Crono_Smash
  • Members
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Nemesis
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 182
  • Talents: Retribution 1/0/0/2/0/2/.
  • 2v2: 1764
  • 3v3: 1742
  • 5v5: 192
  • RBG: 1800

Posted 16 August 2014 - 05:01 PM

View PostGigana, on 16 August 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

Nice. Hope you're right. Frankly, I can't wait to play level 100 RBGs. :]

Are they tweaking prot yet?

Yesterday Holinka said they're changing the damage increase tanks take from 25% to 50% more damage taken.

We're expecting a damage/healing balance next weak, at leat the first pass so we can start giving feedback about that.

I don't think they'll do any Prot tweaks especialy for PVP (but maybe something small) but I can say Avenger's Shield bouncing 5 times rules crowds. And Prot + DPS is a easy win against teams with healer on x2, especialy if you go Prot+DK or Enhance, or even Ret.

Like I said: Tanks get to be only about 15% harder to kill and deal only 15% less damage. So it's more about mechanics than turtle. But we have to see how the game will turn out. Less CC and less burst = longer games even without tanks arround. So it could be a problem. Maybe we're back to having mana problems, or maybe some middle ground. We'll se...

I'm betting they'll do this right this time. But when they fix the numbers I'll create a tread about it, give the numbers to compare with Ret and we discuss it there ;D
Posted Image

-> In short: "Balance is make 6-7 specs balanced to compete and let the rest nerfed but make it playable so maybe some exeptional professional players can compete with a nerfed spec." = Blizz supports FOTM.

#186 Gigana

Gigana
  • Junkies
  • Taurenclass_name
  • EU-Stormscale
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 476
  • Talents: Holy 0/2/1/2/2/0
  • 2v2: 1997
  • 3v3: 2187
  • 5v5: 1243
  • RBG: 2232

Posted 16 August 2014 - 06:51 PM

Cool. :]

On a related note, how viable of a kill target is a hpala? Seems easy to train in 2s/3s due to WoG casttime.
Posted Image

#187 glonglon

glonglon
  • Members
  • Blood Elfclass_name
  • EU-Stormscale
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 1466
  • Talents: Retribution 1/0/0/2/0/2
  • 2v2: 1905
  • 3v3: 1990

Posted 17 August 2014 - 06:21 AM

View PostAvengelyne, on 15 August 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

I did a lot of duels and skrims. I feel like seraphim with CD stacking is like a warrior taking dragons roar in early mists.

View PostAnimefreak3K, on 15 August 2014 - 08:38 PM, said:

Seraphim can be really good, can... :) .
Pushed my Damage to +70 @660 Itemlevel. Was really n1^^.

I don't like seraphim design, seem to be a PVE talent for sustained dmg :(

Posted Image


#188 Gigana

Gigana
  • Junkies
  • Taurenclass_name
  • EU-Stormscale
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 476
  • Talents: Holy 0/2/1/2/2/0
  • 2v2: 1997
  • 3v3: 2187
  • 5v5: 1243
  • RBG: 2232

Posted 20 August 2014 - 11:40 AM

And, the nerfs are starting:

Final Verdict was nerfed because it was overpowered, especially with Empowered Divine Storm added. Yes, it was a huge nerf, because it was very overpowered. If you have theorycrafting data suggesting otherwise, please post it in the Class Design Theorycraft Results thread.

The goal is absolutely for Ret to be strong DPS, just as strong as a Fury Warrior, or Enhancement Shaman, or Combat Rogue (just to pick some random examples). These nerfs occurred (and more will occur) because they were stronger in our testing. (Blue Tracker / Official Forums)

As always, the considerations are for PvE dps. Let's just hope this doesn't harm pvp dps too much.
Posted Image

#189 Crono_Smash

Crono_Smash
  • Members
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Nemesis
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 182
  • Talents: Retribution 1/0/0/2/0/2/.
  • 2v2: 1764
  • 3v3: 1742
  • 5v5: 192
  • RBG: 1800

Posted 20 August 2014 - 12:29 PM

We might end up going EmpSeals on PVP anyway, for the flexibility.

The main reason to use FV was the damage. DS buff effect makes it a plus for cleave - should be nice for RBG pressure.

But the PVP dynamic is more situational oriented. Mobility and healing is more improtant than damage on many more situations than PVE.


If the balance it right, it'll be much harder to EmpSeal, but much more rewarding. Meaning same damage, but more healing and more mobility.

Don't forget that Attack Power buff from EmpSeal Truth gives us more damage AND healing for eveything we do. FV just buff TV and DS.


So I'm not so sad about FV. Everybody saw that comming. I do think FV should be much stronger than TV to be worth the talent, but since it's a fairly "dumb" gameplay talent, it's fair that isn't stronger than the others.


People are saying Seraphim is strong for damage. But I have no intention to use it unless it makes us oneshot people. We'll know how the game will work out in a couple weeks.
Posted Image

-> In short: "Balance is make 6-7 specs balanced to compete and let the rest nerfed but make it playable so maybe some exeptional professional players can compete with a nerfed spec." = Blizz supports FOTM.

#190 Animefreak3K

Animefreak3K
  • Members
  • Posts: 153

Posted 20 August 2014 - 09:12 PM

Quote

So I'm not so sad about FV. Everybody saw that comming. I do think FV should be much stronger than TV to be worth the talent, but since it's a fairly "dumb" gameplay talent, it's fair that isn't stronger than the others.

Maybe you not, but many other, so i do.
Nearly everything was nerfed, to start the Tuningprocess.
FV will be buffed again, to be worth a level 100 talent.
DS does (Procc) ~15% more damage, than FV. That not fair and senseless.

Seraphim will nerf itself with better gear. It's only strong with lowgear. The better the gear gets, the weaker this talent will be.
Emp. Seals should be reworked. Seals aren't "empowered", Seals are still useless as now.

Final Verdict should be up to 215-245% (as long is was patches ago), and it will be fine.

#191 Linkozz

Linkozz
  • Junkies
  • Humanclass_name
  • EU-Xavius
  • Glutsturm / Emberstorm
  • Posts: 12
  • Talents: Retribution 1/0/0/2/0/2/2
  • 3v3: 288
  • 5v5: 862
  • RBG: 767

Posted 24 August 2014 - 04:06 AM

Dont get excited guys, ret will be complete shit at start of exp again and slowly build up to be "average" after a few seasons

#192 Animefreak3K

Animefreak3K
  • Members
  • Posts: 153

Posted 24 August 2014 - 10:24 AM

I cannot confirm this.

At the "Play with the Devs Event" i did much 3on3 with a Protwarrior and a Priester (Heal). The games were very long, the healthbars are not jumping like on live, Ret isnt' always the first target. Even when, you're not dieing instantly in a cc. Even a cc-chain can be survived.

If some abilities aren't bugged/still op, it's not possible to die in a 6 sec. stun or something else.
You can't kill someone too for sure.

It was really fun to play, much more, than on live.

Final Verdict should hit a bit harder, because if you have Divne Storm-Procc, you cannot use them everytime, becauce of cc.
210% sound totally ok (it was at this rate longe in the Alpha).
I makes me sad to know, that our hard-Hitter (Procc'd Divine Storm) cannt be used everytime (because of cc).

Overall: It was fun!

#193 Crono_Smash

Crono_Smash
  • Members
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Nemesis
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 182
  • Talents: Retribution 1/0/0/2/0/2/.
  • 2v2: 1764
  • 3v3: 1742
  • 5v5: 192
  • RBG: 1800

Posted 25 August 2014 - 04:16 PM

The game is changing it's mechanics overall.

With less CC and bigger health pools, it's no longer about CC and burst.

I think it's to early to say what the game will be about. Maybe about sustained damage burning mana, maybe about sudden burst, maybe about a well placed CC. I think it'll be about all this and more.

But when we realise the game is changing a lot, it's hard to say if Ret will be good or bad.

Ret is always bad because the game has always been about what Ret lacks: CC, Cleave, DoT, Range, Ofensive Utility. But Ret is getting better Cleave with FV, overall CC is being nerfed, EmpSeals give us Survivability AND Mobility to make up for the lack of a Charge/Grip/Ranged at the cost of being a really good player to manage all the Seal Buffs...

I still think Ret needs a Retribution Aura exclusive that people think "Hey, let's bring a Ret because of that" and I'm EVERY WEEK on the Devs ass complaining about that - but other than that... it's about tweeking the numbers right and some quaility of life changes.

Here is my main sugestions:

1a) Reduce damage from some basic spells and increase the seal effects so there is a real reason to change seals from time to time.

Like, reduce CS/Judge/HotR/DS/HoW/TV/etc damage by 20% and increase all seals damage (except from insight) by 20%.

So if you don't swap seals for AoE/Snare/Healing it's really bad and if you don't swap back, it's a huge DPS loss.

BUT to finish this change, remove Seal of Truth from GCD.

So it's always worth the GCD/effort to CHANGE SEALS situationally and not a cluncky burden to swap it back.

Insight heals for more, Justice snare lasts longer (maybe physical?), Righteouss cleave 'em all right.

Think how this would feel on the gameplay.

OR

1b) Just fking REMOVE BASELINE SEALS because there is no point having so many buttons that is not worth to use 95% of the time.


2) HotR should not require a target but generate Holy Power only when a target is hit.

3) Ret needs a real Retribution exclusive Raid Wide CD like a Retribution Aura that reflects damage, or something that scales up to 20 people. Hands are not exclusive, not optimal and balanced for 3 to 5 people, not 20.

4) Exo needs to deal more damage/mechanic because it's a filler right now.
Posted Image

-> In short: "Balance is make 6-7 specs balanced to compete and let the rest nerfed but make it playable so maybe some exeptional professional players can compete with a nerfed spec." = Blizz supports FOTM.

#194 Gigana

Gigana
  • Junkies
  • Taurenclass_name
  • EU-Stormscale
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 476
  • Talents: Holy 0/2/1/2/2/0
  • 2v2: 1997
  • 3v3: 2187
  • 5v5: 1243
  • RBG: 2232

Posted 26 August 2014 - 10:39 AM

What are the pvp dmg trinkets like? Are dmg output differences between human rets and other rets as massive as they are on live?

BTW, does armor make a difference on beta?
Posted Image

#195 Crono_Smash

Crono_Smash
  • Members
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Nemesis
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 182
  • Talents: Retribution 1/0/0/2/0/2/.
  • 2v2: 1764
  • 3v3: 1742
  • 5v5: 192
  • RBG: 1800

Posted 26 August 2014 - 11:41 AM

View PostGigana, on 26 August 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

What are the pvp dmg trinkets like? Are dmg output differences between human rets and other rets as massive as they are on live?

BTW, does armor make a difference on beta?

I havn't tested it yet (but now I will because we know EMFH is staying) but we have to be sure the PVP Trinkets are final too... well, I think it'll be the same as on live. But since other races are getting buffs, I'm hoping they come closer anyway...

And armor is better on WoD, mainly because it has become tanks oficial main stat. Not sure and didn't made the numbers yet but I'm betting that it'll be nice but not worth to invest into.
Posted Image

-> In short: "Balance is make 6-7 specs balanced to compete and let the rest nerfed but make it playable so maybe some exeptional professional players can compete with a nerfed spec." = Blizz supports FOTM.

#196 Animefreak3K

Animefreak3K
  • Members
  • Posts: 153

Posted 26 August 2014 - 12:58 PM

As long as Holinka is still blocking any (needed) changes for the Human Racial, Humas are still the best choice for Ret and every other Specc in WoW.

The Difference is still huge, maybe a bit stronger, than on the live servers, because of the Strenght that the DPS-Trinkets have now.

That's so retarded....

#197 Crono_Smash

Crono_Smash
  • Members
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Nemesis
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 182
  • Talents: Retribution 1/0/0/2/0/2/.
  • 2v2: 1764
  • 3v3: 1742
  • 5v5: 192
  • RBG: 1800

Posted 26 August 2014 - 01:13 PM

You guys know Blood Fury from Orcs, right? It does the same as the extra trinket Humans take.

People keep complaining without looking at the full toolset (don't know if you did - if you do, then explain to me why EMFH is stronger) - Orcs and Humans have the same deal, just delivered different.

The day Blizz removes EMFH, Blood Fury will be removed also and people will realise how stupid blind they are with no right to complain.

It's EVEN WORSE because Blood Fury don't take a trinket slot, so for PVE Orcs have both trinkets AND the effect from PVP Trinket proc Attack Power/Spell Power = more DPS.

Of course: for Paladin PVP, Human can be better. But for other classes, horde have it much better as a whole.

Why do you think PVP is horde oriented and Blizz is balancing for this next expansion? It's as official as it gets: Horde racials are stronger and they're fixing it.

People complain without looking at the whole picture.
Posted Image

-> In short: "Balance is make 6-7 specs balanced to compete and let the rest nerfed but make it playable so maybe some exeptional professional players can compete with a nerfed spec." = Blizz supports FOTM.

#198 Gigana

Gigana
  • Junkies
  • Taurenclass_name
  • EU-Stormscale
  • Cyclone / Wirbelsturm
  • Posts: 476
  • Talents: Holy 0/2/1/2/2/0
  • 2v2: 1997
  • 3v3: 2187
  • 5v5: 1243
  • RBG: 2232

Posted 26 August 2014 - 01:44 PM

@ Crono

Sorry m8, you post a lot of good stuff, but you got no idea what you're talking about when it comes to racials.

Orc racial is on roughly the same level as human racial during the 1st and 2nd seasons of an expansion, but after that starts falling behind because dmg trinkets get better and orc racial stays the same. Try playing a healer on higher ratings, you'll notice a massive difference trying to heal vs alliance teams compared to horde.

Needless to say, even if you were right and human = orc, that still doesn't change the fact they're overpowered for pvp. Human racial needs to go, and the only reason it wasn't removed yet is because it doesn't affect pve.
Posted Image

#199 Crono_Smash

Crono_Smash
  • Members
  • Humanclass_name
  • US-Nemesis
  • Rampage
  • Posts: 182
  • Talents: Retribution 1/0/0/2/0/2/.
  • 2v2: 1764
  • 3v3: 1742
  • 5v5: 192
  • RBG: 1800

Posted 26 August 2014 - 01:48 PM

So, I got this from wowhead, it's wrong?


Prideful Gladiator's Badge of Victory
+2,506 PvP Power
Increases Strenght by 4,765 for 20 sec.

Blood Fury - Orc Racial  
Increases your melee attack power by 4514 and your spell power by 2257. Lasts 15 sec.
Posted Image

-> In short: "Balance is make 6-7 specs balanced to compete and let the rest nerfed but make it playable so maybe some exeptional professional players can compete with a nerfed spec." = Blizz supports FOTM.

#200 Animefreak3K

Animefreak3K
  • Members
  • Posts: 153

Posted 26 August 2014 - 02:06 PM

Come on, don't be so blind :/ .

Sure i know about the Orc Racial, but Strenght and PvP Power are much stronger, than AP.
No Specc an provide from both (AP and Spellpower).

2.506 / 400 = 6,265% (Points!) more
4.765 * 1,05 * 2 = 10.006,5 AP


Blood Fury = 4.514 AP / 2 = 2247 Strenght  worth (roundabout)

See the Difference? ;)

You don't have to be a genius too see, that the Human Racial is always the best choice.
The Orc Racial is good, but the Human Racials is much, much stronger.

As i tweeted on Twitter: Rework both racials to not be so racial impact the gameplay, and everything will be fine.


People choose (always) the Best, so on the Horde there are Orcs, and on Alliance there are Humans, which are the best choices.

Check the 2on2, 3on3, 5on5 and RBG Ladders. Not US only, everything ;) .
On EU you have ~98% Humans and ~85% Orcs. ...any Questions?

Please don't get me wrong, i love writing/discuccion with you, but to be honest, why are most Human-Player so so blind, or don't want to see it? Zaul argued the same as you did, and Holinka is still blocking :( .




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

<