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wod warlords draenor hunter freezing trap

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#21 Sniz

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 12:40 AM

Would also love to see a video!

#22 Bekman

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 05:44 AM



If anyone was interested :)

#23 Dividium

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 07:41 AM

View PostBekman, on 17 July 2014 - 05:44 AM, said:



If anyone was interested :)

are you kidding me? that trap speed is breaking Mach 1

#24 Esiwdeer

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 07:11 PM

Can one of you guys explain to me how it's fair for a Mage to have:

Better procs
Better CC
Take less damage
Do more burst damage
Actually have more instant CC

and an 8 second CC they can literally spam?

there's your fucking problem. you could have made an rmp at level 70 and played it to r1 every season if you were so inclined. warlocks and mages get to stay god tier, let's not forget the hero class and how priests find a way to complain every fucking expansion despite being god tier at the end every. single. time.

sorry you got killed by a hunter, but i am not going to exist in this fantasy world where we all pretend hunter has more CC than mage

really? 12 sec cd on THE ONLY CC IN THE GAME YOU HAVE TO AIM is more powerful than polymorph/fear/cyclone?

o wait, that's right. i wear mail armor, right? thank goodness, now nobody will train me

k, thx for the tips

Edited by Esiwdeer, 17 July 2014 - 07:12 PM.


#25 ottishen

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 07:43 PM

View PostEsiwdeer, on 17 July 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

Can one of you guys explain to me how it's fair for a Mage to have:

Better procs
Better CC
Take less damage
Do more burst damage
Actually have more instant CC

and an 8 second CC they can literally spam?

there's your fucking problem. you could have made an rmp at level 70 and played it to r1 every season if you were so inclined. warlocks and mages get to stay god tier, let's not forget the hero class and how priests find a way to complain every fucking expansion despite being god tier at the end every. single. time.

sorry you got killed by a hunter, but i am not going to exist in this fantasy world where we all pretend hunter has more CC than mage

really? 12 sec cd on THE ONLY CC IN THE GAME YOU HAVE TO AIM is more powerful than polymorph/fear/cyclone?

o wait, that's right. i wear mail armor, right? thank goodness, now nobody will train me

k, thx for the tips
How does mages have more instant cc than hunters? Currently on the beta, it is impossible to avoid the trap, even if no cc was landed before (granted, I play with 200 ms, but even so, I am trapped before I can even see the god damn arrow flying towards me). This means that every time trap is off dr, you have guaranteed 8 seconds of cc that can't be stopped. While mages have a lot of cc, I am not going to argue about that, they do not have even close to as much instant cc, since all they have in WoD is deep freeze every 30 seconds.
I prefer a mage that can spam poly over hunter traps in WoD, every day of the week. At least I can LoS/interrupt the poly, not to mention death/grounding/shapeshift/sac.
And don't pretend like aiming the trap is hard. Unavoidable cc is bad for the game, it is not "an interesting mechanic".

Edit: Is most likely a bug, but Binding Shot instantly triggers when shot at somebody, even if it is aimed straight on top of them. So you have an additional 3 seconds of guaranteed cc out of your traps :)

Edited by ottishen, 17 July 2014 - 07:46 PM.


#26 z4xx

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 07:46 PM

Does anyone know how he moved player/target frames in that beta video?

I'm so handicapped without having them in middle..

#27 ottishen

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 08:02 PM

View Postz4xx, on 17 July 2014 - 07:46 PM, said:

Does anyone know how he moved player/target frames in that beta video?

I'm so handicapped without having them in middle..
Right click on the portrait->move frame->unlock frame. You can then move the portraits freely.

#28 Esiwdeer

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 08:08 PM

i see hunters miss binding shot all the time. i have seen terrible rings of frost. i have seen smoke bombs that somehow didn't even hit the rogue who casted them.

you're whining about three layers of antiquated mechanics. 12 second cd means you'll be dr'd when it comes back up - you're basically complaining about a hex that you have to aim, lmao

it's funny that when someone loses binding shot to get wyvern sting, hunters just have retard cc

but then when you get presence of mind and drop frostjaw or what the fuck ever nobody counts pom sheep/rof as "instant cc" even though mages do it in most of their games

i bet some mages would miss rof if they had permanent pom and it only had a 12 second cd. it isn't as easy as you think, i think

protip: stay far away from the hunter. you could juke, you could speed yourself up, you could simply kite it. there are so many ways to outplay someone whose only way to stop you requires aim

and final edit: on the topic of hunter utility vs mage utility, the mage's argument is always the wrong one. pom could also be used for frostfire bolt. you could just be running around and get a frostfire bolt proc for no reason.

i can't use wyvern sting to deal 100k damage sometimes if i choose, my proc requires me to cast the same ability over and over - not simply luck. i don't have decurse. most of my glyphs aren't useful for pvp. oh yeah, and if i'm losing an arena game tab/sheep isn't an option and never will be

you're right that hunter cc is retarded, but it's because while my mail armor became obsolete and my signature abilities, like flare, viper sting and hunter's mark got nerfed into oblivion mage has gotten 2 ice blocks, ice barrier, mage armor that is also 50% berserking, rof, orb, alter time, bloodlust, deep freeze baseline, imp cs baseline oh yeah, and they still have polymorph

the same lot who thinks i shouldn't be able to flare to stop someone from casting vanish doesn't care if they stun my deterrence and kill me anyway.

hunter cc has to be retarded or hunters will simply fall out of representation like they did in s9. the class has no place in the game, it's simply stuck in some gray area between melee and caster.

hunter might be retarded, but at least it isn't consistent. meanwhile mage and warlock has somehow been able to compete with hunter, no matter how retarded it has been whether it had mana or a melee weapon or tnt stun or lnl procs, rmp can always kill me in the opener

one thing all this game's problems have in common, and it isn't hunter design

rip

Edited by Esiwdeer, 17 July 2014 - 08:18 PM.


#29 freshfreefly

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 08:19 PM

View PostEsiwdeer, on 17 July 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

Can one of you guys explain to me how it's fair for a Mage to have:

Better procs
Better CC
Take less damage
Do more burst damage
Actually have more instant CC

and an 8 second CC they can literally spam?

there's your fucking problem. you could have made an rmp at level 70 and played it to r1 every season if you were so inclined. warlocks and mages get to stay god tier, let's not forget the hero class and how priests find a way to complain every fucking expansion despite being god tier at the end every. single. time.

sorry you got killed by a hunter, but i am not going to exist in this fantasy world where we all pretend hunter has more CC than mage

really? 12 sec cd on THE ONLY CC IN THE GAME YOU HAVE TO AIM is more powerful than polymorph/fear/cyclone?

o wait, that's right. i wear mail armor, right? thank goodness, now nobody will train me

k, thx for the tips

have to aim? rofl did you see the bajheera vid?

mages have no damage outside of procs on beta, and full procs is about 40% of somebodys health. deep freeze breaks on damage and blanket CS is gone, so good luck killing a melee that still has retarded mobility and 10 cc breakers

xd

edit: i hope they at least make a deep freeze glyph to remove dots from the target Kappa

Edited by freshfreefly, 17 July 2014 - 08:20 PM.

View PostDillypoo, on 03 August 2014 - 09:44 PM, said:

GUYS GUYS GUYS IM RUNNING IN I GOT A FEAR OFF THAT!!! Oh wait Tremor... OK OK OK Guys I got another full fear off that!!! Aw shit nimble, OK GUYS GUYS GUYS I SWEAR I HAVE A FULL FEAR! Fuck nevermind... Will. OK OK OK NOW THIS FEAR IS FULL!!! Shit he has tremor back up omg... OK OK OK NOW I HAVE A FULL FEAR ITS FULL KILL KILL Oh whoops... prep tremor... Damnit, I got a full fear this time!!! Oh... he trinketed it... next one should be full... FULL FEAR!!! He has nimble back up WTF.

#30 ottishen

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 08:25 PM

View PostEsiwdeer, on 17 July 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

i see hunters miss binding shot all the time. i have seen terrible rings of frost. i have seen smoke bombs that somehow didn't even hit the rogue who casted them.

you're whining about three layers of antiquated mechanics. 12 second cd means you'll be dr'd when it comes back up - you're basically complaining about a hex that you have to aim, lmao

it's funny that when someone loses binding shot to get wyvern sting, hunters just have retard cc

but then when you get presence of mind and drop frostjaw or what the fuck ever nobody counts pom sheep/rof as "instant cc" even though mages do it in most of their games

i bet some mages would miss rof if they had permanent pom and it only had a 12 second cd. it isn't as easy as you think, i think

protip: stay far away from the hunter. you could juke, you could speed yourself up, you could simply kite it. there are so many ways to outplay someone whose only way to stop you requires aim

and final edit: on the topic of hunter utility vs mage utility, the mage's argument is always the wrong one. pom could also be used for frostfire bolt. you could just be running around and get a frostfire bolt proc for no reason.

i can't use wyvern sting to deal 100k damage sometimes if i choose, my proc requires me to cast the same ability over and over - not simply luck. i don't have decurse. most of my glyphs aren't useful for pvp. oh yeah, and if i'm losing an arena game tab/sheep isn't an option and never will be

you're right that hunter cc is retarded, but it's because while my mail armor became obsolete and my signature abilities, like flare, viper sting and hunter's mark got nerfed into oblivion.

the same lot who thinks i shouldn't be able to flare to stop someone from casting vanish doesn't care if they stun my deterrence and kill me anyway.

hunter cc has to be retarded or hunters will simply fall out of representation like they did in s9. the class has no place in the game, it's simply stuck in some gray area between melee and caster.

hunter might be retarded, but at least it isn't consistent. meanwhile mage and warlock has somehow been able to compete with hunter, no matter how retarded it has been whether it had mana or a melee weapon or tnt stun or lnl procs, rmp can always kill me in the opener

one thing all this game's problems have in common, and it isn't hunter design

rip
What are you even on about? You are aware of the fact that PoM Poly is being removed because people were complaining about mage instant cc, so what do you mean that nobody counts it as "instant cc"?
"Hex that you have to aim"- I didn't know that DR was 45 seconds long. You can land 3 full traps during 1 hex cooldown. Just wait for the DR before you cast the next trap, the cooldown being short does not mean that you have to use it off cooldown every single time. And yes, I can assure you that people would complain like hell if Hex was instant as well.
Like I said earlier, stop pretending like aiming traps is something that is hard to do. Being a monk myself, I can tell you that clicking a circle beneath people is not hard at all.

#31 Esiwdeer

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 08:41 PM

Quote

Like I said earlier, stop pretending like aiming traps is something that is hard to do. Being a monk myself, I can tell you that clicking a circle beneath people is not hard at all.
and yet even professional world of warcraft players who play mistweaver say "don't move" to coordinate orbs during high enemy pressure

it's not as easy as you're making it out to be

#32 ottishen

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 08:42 PM

View PostEsiwdeer, on 17 July 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

and yet even professional world of warcraft players who play mistweaver say "don't move" to coordinate orbs during high enemy pressure

it's not as easy as you're making it out to be
Edit: Misunderstood your post.
Yes that does happen, but all you have to do is look for when the enemy healer is casting, something that will be a lot more frequent in WoD. If you cast a trap on a stationary target it is guaranteed to hit. And even if you fail every once in a while, you can repeat it within 12 seconds.

Edited by ottishen, 17 July 2014 - 08:44 PM.


#33 ottishen

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 08:46 PM

Just to give an example: Me and a friend tried traps out by letting me run as randomly as I could and see if he could land the traps. I did not stand still for a second, and we both had 200 ms, which should mean that it was harder for him to land traps. He still hit every single one.

#34 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 08:56 PM

View PostEsiwdeer, on 17 July 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

Can one of you guys explain to me how it's fair for a Mage to have:
i normally pretty much agree with most of what you say, but

View PostEsiwdeer, on 17 July 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

Better procs
this is a spec thing so i dont get it, its like me complaining that marksman hunters have better physical damage abilities then a mage

View PostEsiwdeer, on 17 July 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

Better CC
ask anyone who is not a hunter and who does not play with a hunter which cc they prefer to play against, mage or hunter

i can imagine what most of them will say xD

View PostEsiwdeer, on 17 July 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

Take less damage
mages take 6% less physical damage then a hunter with aspect of the iron hawk, and hunters take 10% less spell damage then mages. I wouldnt exactly call that as mages having a massive advantage =)

View PostEsiwdeer, on 17 July 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

Do more burst damage
mages do more burst once a minute, the other 50 seconds of every minute firmly belong to hunters

View PostEsiwdeer, on 17 July 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

Actually have more instant CC
is that a joke? all your cc is instant, mages have pom once every 1.5 mins

View PostEsiwdeer, on 17 July 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

and an 8 second CC they can literally spam?
the amount of hunters who say they would switch freezing trap for polymorph always makes me smile. feel free to take my 1.5 second cast time cc, and ill take your instant cast, 30 second cd, requires you to not be retarded in order to always 100% land, cc any time you want me to

your argument is that hunter cc has to be retarded or the class will not function, which i'm pretty sure is a comment that would compete rather well with the other posts in my signature if you had happened to make it more quote friendly :)

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 17 July 2014 - 09:13 PM.

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#35 TheGosuStandard

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 09:16 PM

Not sure how I'll feel with the new MM mastery.

Besides that SV has 12 second traps.

#36 Esiwdeer

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 09:22 PM

I am not a good Mage. Most of my ability to play one comes from the similarities between the two classes. I prefer Hunter, because I have played it for so long. It's just intuitive, to me.

That being said, I have more titles on Mage than you. I agree that your average basic Gladiator Mage vs Hunter of the same is capable of about the same, but the skill ceiling and potential of Mage far surpasses probably everyone which never felt fair, to me. Especially as the game grows more and more homogenized and more functions like @ arena 1, 2, 3 are added.

It's possible, if you outplay the enemy team, to trap off of Concussive Shot 100% of the time right now on live. How many Hunters have done this to you? How many times have you seen this done on a stream? Probably not very many, because it's extremely hard.

Meanwhile your "once a minute" burst of Orb, PoM, Alter with a FF proc can pretty much kill any player in the game without a defensive all by yourself. When's the last time your healer got solo'd by a Hunter because he got some lucky procs? When's the last time you got Freezing Trapped 3 times in a row?

Pretending the PvP spec for Mage isn't Frost is like pretending BM Hunter was ever real. Obviously your proc is superior to Aimed Shot, obviously Polymorph is superior to Freezing Trap, obviously Mage has more potential to CC your team than Hunter.

The problem is, you don't have to play in an expert RMP where you all coordinate CCing the entire enemy team at once, you can just play in a wizard cleave and all spam your CC indefinitely. How can you say one is worse than the other? You got an entire expansion where Polymorph removed dots while Hunter couldn't even compete, every expansion you get Alter Time or Ring of Frost or Time Warp and I get.. Stampede, sick.

The difference in design quality is obvious to any real player, always has been. Pretending Hunter is anything close to relevant in the discussion of what's wrong with PvP is something only someone ignorant would do.

I hope next expansion you lose Alter Time and get the ability to summon 5 water elementals for 10 seconds.

tl;dr: if your Warrior says, "can't stop this Poly" it's a good Mage. If your Warrior says, "can't stop that trap" he's a bad Warrior.

Edited by Esiwdeer, 17 July 2014 - 09:28 PM.


#37 Forumz

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 09:36 PM

The trapping speed in the video clearly shows that it's not well designed. There is no room for counterplay there, you can't possibly avoid that unless you're a psychic.
Posted Image

#38 ottishen

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 09:36 PM

View PostEsiwdeer, on 17 July 2014 - 09:22 PM, said:

I am not a good Mage. Most of my ability to play one comes from the similarities between the two classes. I prefer Hunter, because I have played it for so long. It's just intuitive, to me.

That being said, I have more titles on Mage than you. I agree that your average basic Gladiator Mage vs Hunter of the same is capable of about the same, but the skill ceiling and potential of Mage far surpasses probably everyone which never felt fair, to me. Especially as the game grows more and more homogenized and more functions like @ arena 1, 2, 3 are added.

It's possible, if you outplay the enemy team, to trap off of Concussive Shot 100% of the time right now on live. How many Hunters have done this to you? How many times have you seen this done on a stream? Probably not very many, because it's extremely hard.

Meanwhile your "once a minute" burst of Orb, PoM, Alter with a FF proc can pretty much kill any player in the game without a defensive all by yourself. When's the last time your healer got solo'd by a Hunter because he got some lucky procs? When's the last time you got Freezing Trapped 3 times in a row?

Pretending the PvP spec for Mage isn't Frost is like pretending BM Hunter was ever real. Obviously your proc is superior to Aimed Shot, obviously Polymorph is superior to Freezing Trap, obviously Mage has more potential to CC your team than Hunter.

The problem is, you don't have to play in an expert RMP where you all coordinate CCing the entire enemy team at once, you can just play in a wizard cleave and all spam your CC indefinitely. How can you say one is worse than the other? You got an entire expansion where Polymorph removed dots while Hunter couldn't even compete, every expansion you get Alter Time or Ring of Frost or Time Warp and I get.. Stampede, sick.

The difference in design quality is obvious to any real player, always has been. Pretending Hunter is anything close to relevant in the discussion of what's wrong with PvP is something only someone ignorant would do.

I hope next expansion you lose Alter Time and get the ability to summon 5 water elementals for 10 seconds.

tl;dr: if your Warrior says, "can't stop this Poly" it's a good Mage. If your Warrior says, "can't stop that trap" he's a bad Warrior.
This thread is not about mages vd hunters on live, but rather about a stupid mechanic in WoD. In WoD, the "once a minute " burst does not solo a player. And for the third time, PoM is being removed so stop using it as an argument.
I can assure you that no matter how good the warrior is, he will not be able to stop the traps come WoD.
What part of "instant cc is bad for the game" do you disagree with? That is what this discussion is really about.

#39 Esiwdeer

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 09:48 PM

You are telling me that we could go into Durotar right now and you could Duel a Warrior while spamming orbs under me as I am 40 yards away, trying to avoid them?

What percentage of orbs do you think you'd hit? Would you like to place a genteman's wager?

If it isn't about Mages vs Hunters overall, what is it about? Beta? No, it's theoretically about just having Freezing Trap and Counter Shot vs Counter Spell, Deep Freeze and Polymorph. Even without PoM, it's so obvious that having a spammable Polymorph is better than even an unavoidable, targeted trap on a 12 second cd.

Know why? Because you can't chain it. So there's 4 seconds of time where the enemy can do anything, no matter what. How do you not view that as an inferiority? Oh yeah, because you're a Mage and the whole world should basically be given to you. Nah, but you're right. 12 second CD, unavoidable Freezing Traps would actually let Hunter compete with Mage, assuming all the changes actually make it to live.

Polymorph and Freezing trap would be comparable, under that circumstance. Like Silencing Shot and Counterspell are comparable. Powerful for slightly different reasons, used for similar purposes. Those are the distinctions that are balanced. But what about the rest of them, you know where.. actual design comes into play?

Camouflage vs Invis, FD vs Mirror Images, Aimed Shot vs FF Bolt, Arcane Shot vs Ice Lance, Roar of Sac vs Pet Nova, Frost Nova/CoC vs Conc Shot, Blink vs Disengage, Ice Block vs Deterrence, Spellsteal vs Tranq Shot, Evocation and Spirit Bond?, Mage Armor and.. Aspect of the Iron Hawk? and, finally, Chimera Shot vs Frostbolt.

Which of those comparisons did the Hunter win?

That's what I thought.

Edited by Esiwdeer, 17 July 2014 - 09:56 PM.


#40 Nekracy

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 10:02 PM

View PostEsiwdeer, on 17 July 2014 - 09:48 PM, said:

You are telling me that we could go into Durotar right now and you could Duel a Warrior while spamming orbs under me as I am 40 yards away, trying to avoid them?

What percentage of orbs do you think you'd hit? Would you like to place a genteman's wager?

If it isn't about Mages vs Hunters overall, what is it about? Beta? No, it's theoretically about just having Freezing Trap and Counter Shot vs Counter Spell, Deep Freeze and Polymorph. Even without PoM, it's so obvious that having a spammable Polymorph is better than even an unavoidable, targeted trap on a 12 second cd.

Know why? Because you can't chain it. So there's 4 seconds of time where the enemy can do anything, no matter what. How do you not view that as an inferiority? Oh yeah, because you're a Mage and the whole world should basically be given to you. Nah, but you're right. 12 second CD, unavoidable Freezing Traps would actually let Hunter compete with Mage, assuming all the changes actually make it to live.

Polymorph and Freezing trap would be comparable, under that circumstance. Like Silencing Shot and Counterspell are comparable. Powerful for slightly different reasons, used for similar purposes. Those are the distinctions that are balanced. But what about the rest of them, you know where.. actual design comes into play?

Camouflage vs Invis, FD vs Mirror Images, Aimed Shot vs FF Bolt, Arcane Shot vs Ice Lance, Roar of Sac vs Pet Nova, Frost Nova/CoC vs Conc Shot, Blink vs Disengage, Ice Block vs Deterrence, Spellsteal vs Tranq Shot, Evocation and Spirit Bond?, Mage Armor and.. Aspect of the Iron Hawk? and, finally, Chimera Shot vs Frostbolt.

Which of those comparisons did the Hunter win?

That's what I thought.

Arguments like this and others you have made throughout this thread really illuminate the fact that it doesn't matter how many titles you have...it's still possible to be completely biased.

#hunters





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