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wod warlords draenor hunter freezing trap

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#41 ottishen

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 10:07 PM

You are telling me that we could go into Durotar right now and you could Duel a Warrior while spamming orbs under me as I am 40 yards away, trying to avoid them?

What percentage of orbs do you think you'd hit? Would you like to place a genteman's wager?

If it isn't about Mages vs Hunters overall, what is it about? Beta? No, it's theoretically about just having Freezing Trap and Counter Shot vs Counter Spell, Deep Freeze and Polymorph. Even without PoM, it's so obvious that having a spammable Polymorph is better than even an unavoidable, targeted trap on a 12 second cd.

Know why? Because you can't chain it. So there's 4 seconds of time where the enemy can do anything, no matter what. How do you not view that as an inferiority? Oh yeah, because you're a Mage and the whole world should basically be given to you. Nah, but you're right. 12 second CD, unavoidable Freezing Traps would actually let Hunter compete with Mage, assuming all the changes actually make it to live.

Polymorph and Freezing trap would be comparable, under that circumstance. Like Silencing Shot and Counterspell are comparable. Powerful for slightly different reasons, used for similar purposes. Those are the distinctions that are balanced. But what about the rest of them, you know where.. actual design comes into play?

Camouflage vs Invis, FD vs Mirror Images, Aimed Shot vs FF Bolt, Arcane Shot vs Ice Lance, Roar of Sac vs Pet Nova, Frost Nova/CoC vs Conc Shot, Blink vs Disengage, Ice Block vs Deterrence, Spellsteal vs Tranq Shot, Evocation and Spirit Bond?, Mage Armor and.. Aspect of the Iron Hawk? and, finally, Chimera Shot vs Frostbolt.

Which of those comparisons did the Hunter win?

That's what I thought.

Your arguments sounds an awful lot like "they are op, so we should also be op!" And no, a 12 sec cd instant cc is not comparable to polymorph. As a peel it is way worse, but as a healer cc, it is infinately stronger. You can't chain it, that is correct, but on the other hand, mages usually can't land polymorph off DR on healers. All in all, this change will make healers sit in cc literally 1/3rd of the game, and this is without any other cc than Frost Trap. Mages cannot match that cc, unless your teammates does nothing to stop their cc.

Once again, do you honestly think that an instant cc with a 12 second cooldown is good design This might not be the new Blood Fear, but it does come close.

Edited by ottishen, 17 July 2014 - 10:07 PM.

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#42 Tsx

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 10:32 PM

Chimera Shot vs Frostbolt.
Which of those comparisons did the Hunter win?

:D
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#43 Esiwdeer

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 12:27 AM

I felt the Frostbolt:Chimera Shot comparison was the fairest one for Mage, instead of Steady Shot. No?

And the other guy, grats on access. Hunter has already had instant trap on a 22 second cooldown. Without Scattershot, it's a huge nerf overall whereas Deep Freeze is comparably at least not removed from the game, just nerfed.

Oh wait, so now your nerfed ability becomes.. my old ability?

Isn't that funny? Deep Freeze now performs just like Scatter Shot used to. I bet you think that's just fine, right? Keep poly, keep RoF, keep Alter Time, keep 2 Ice Blocks aaaand here,

Death Coil and Scatter Shot RIP

Deep Freeze minor nerfs
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#44 Tsx

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 12:41 AM

^ well, i'd love to get alter time reworked , like not giving proccs when you alter back.
Comparing frostbolt with steady shot is pretty much the same since you use it as damage regenerator= steady shot for focus frostbolt for icicles.
the deepfreeze nerf is an indirect nerf to wizardcleaves which i like, makes you want to swap to melee/caster/healer comp cuz you need stun for target you are killing and you won't be able to do that with deep anymore.
Don't talk as if sheep will be superior to freezing trap in WoD. You basically gain a pom sheep every 12 seconds, i wish pom would be removed from game because i hate instant ccs as much as every other player( i guess), but it's not like i'm not going to abuse it(or anybody else). Any healer who has a brain can just los sheep which requires the mage team to setup for ccs > deep sheep fear and stun is a good example, not like freezing trap which you can land whenever you want it ( in WoD that is).
Unless the game becomes as slowpaste as tbc , this change will make hunters go to top , if people aren't dieing in a 10 second window, and from streams i'm watching they are,then i have no clue why they implemented this and not keeping the old scatter trap mechanic.
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#45 Esiwdeer

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 01:06 AM

You basically gain a pom sheep every 12 seconds,

Even if we had that, we wouldn't have Polymorph all the time like you do. Do you understand the difference? Do you understand how valuable it is to have one CC that you can spam on the entire enemy team?

1.3 sec CD > 12 sec CD, the rest is just details
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#46 Tsx

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 01:12 AM

Even if we had that, we wouldn't have Polymorph all the time like you do. Do you understand the difference? Do you understand how valuable it is to have one CC that you can spam on the entire enemy team?

1.3 sec CD > 12 sec CD, the rest is just details

i do understand the difference, it's the difference between not being able to cc the healer even if my spell doesn't have a cd and being able to cc healer every time on my 12 sec cd spell, that's exactly the difference.
Ok as mage you throw sheeps on players to peel while as hunter you monstly cc the healer, always been like that.
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#47 Neverever

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 02:06 AM

You are telling me that we could go into Durotar right now and you could Duel a Warrior while spamming orbs under me as I am 40 yards away, trying to avoid them?

What percentage of orbs do you think you'd hit? Would you like to place a genteman's wager?


Honestly, you're talking like someone who hasn't played beta at all. Several people who have played beta, many who are probably less skilled at hunter than you are, are telling you it's incredibly easy to get traps off, even in an arena setting or one where the player being trapped is moving around manically.....not all of us are being biased

I don't think it's just a case of making the trap arming time instant - i believe they have also increased the radius of traps to the extent where it feels like you just have to aim "near enough" to get the trap off. I haven't tested clearly how closely the trap has to be to your target for it to go off, but I will be doing that once the new build goes up. If you play beta youll realise its not really comparable to orbs.

Hell, I'm not a great player by any stretch of the imagination but, as you might know, some top players like venruki have beta access and have been queueing arenas frequently. Since theres so few ppl playing at the moment on beta its not hard to queue into them and let me tell you i've had zero problems trapping these top players whenever I want to in arenas.

The current mechanic really feels uncounterable and unjukeable.

Also as some people have mentioned, the orb bot can probably be used for traps.

And off the top of my head, the things that stick out most about wod are:

- hunter traps
- burst of speed
- faerie fire
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id love to be playing the same game as you where hunters and ferals are the biggest counters to mages


#48 Esiwdeer

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 03:29 AM

I am simply saying that when I watch the video, it seems like a daunting expansion of aiming my traps during critical moments in the arena. It doesn't afflict me with some form of shock because I've played with instant traps before.

It truly won't be as gamebreaking as you think it is - traps have gone full circle. There was a very elite, expert dueling/2v2 community at level 60 - the height of hunter skill used to be about getting traps off without using Scatter Shot. Seeing someone run within 20 yards to Scatter Shot you and then run the rest of the distance to Feign Death and drop a trap at your feet looked.. very strange, with or without the instant arm time.

I don't know what is possible if you cheat. I honestly don't think cheating is as prevalent as you guys say, I wouldn't even know how to start "orb botting" or what the fuck ever. I am saying at a Gladiator level, a 12 CD trap in the parameters as I've seen them(I haven't played WoD but I have watched the hunter mechanic videos) isn't going to be as unavoidable as you think it is.

Instant arm time also means easier to miss, from a certain perspective. I am telling you guys, I have played really long 2v2s at a reasonably high level with instant traps. I didn't have trap launcher, but I had an instantly arming Freezing Trap and it is not only obvious when you're going for it, but you can outplay it.

Shouldn't balance the game around cheating, imo. It really isn't more potential CC than someone just spamming Polymorph, and if they miss the trap you're entirely free for 12 seconds whereas if you fake someone's Death, they just get sheeped right after.

Honestly, dude. You can't underestimate how valuable it is to be able to spam something. It isn't that easy to hit a trap if players stack or in hosts of other arena situations besides simply aiming it at someone.
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#49 Silentlol

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 06:40 AM

I would trade my trap for a spammable CC like poly any day. Not sure what game you guys are playing but traps don't even come close to what poly can do.

I felt the Frostbolt:Chimera Shot comparison was the fairest one for Mage, instead of Steady Shot. No?

And the other guy, grats on access. Hunter has already had instant trap on a 22 second cooldown. Without Scattershot, it's a huge nerf overall whereas Deep Freeze is comparably at least not removed from the game, just nerfed.

Oh wait, so now your nerfed ability becomes.. my old ability?

Isn't that funny? Deep Freeze now performs just like Scatter Shot used to. I bet you think that's just fine, right? Keep poly, keep RoF, keep Alter Time, keep 2 Ice Blocks aaaand here,

Death Coil and Scatter Shot RIP

Deep Freeze minor nerfs


Pretty much all this.

Edited by Silentlol, 18 July 2014 - 06:40 AM.

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#50 ottishen

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 06:46 AM

I am simply saying that when I watch the video, it seems like a daunting expansion of aiming my traps during critical moments in the arena. It doesn't afflict me with some form of shock because I've played with instant traps before.

It truly won't be as gamebreaking as you think it is - traps have gone full circle. There was a very elite, expert dueling/2v2 community at level 60 - the height of hunter skill used to be about getting traps off without using Scatter Shot. Seeing someone run within 20 yards to Scatter Shot you and then run the rest of the distance to Feign Death and drop a trap at your feet looked.. very strange, with or without the instant arm time.

I don't know what is possible if you cheat. I honestly don't think cheating is as prevalent as you guys say, I wouldn't even know how to start "orb botting" or what the fuck ever. I am saying at a Gladiator level, a 12 CD trap in the parameters as I've seen them(I haven't played WoD but I have watched the hunter mechanic videos) isn't going to be as unavoidable as you think it is.

Instant arm time also means easier to miss, from a certain perspective. I am telling you guys, I have played really long 2v2s at a reasonably high level with instant traps. I didn't have trap launcher, but I had an instantly arming Freezing Trap and it is not only obvious when you're going for it, but you can outplay it.

Shouldn't balance the game around cheating, imo. It really isn't more potential CC than someone just spamming Polymorph, and if they miss the trap you're entirely free for 12 seconds whereas if you fake someone's Death, they just get sheeped right after.

Honestly, dude. You can't underestimate how valuable it is to be able to spam something. It isn't that easy to hit a trap if players stack or in hosts of other arena situations besides simply aiming it at someone.

There is still the fact that polys can be LoSed/interrupted. Freezing Trap won't.
Like you yourself mentioned, it used to be very obvious when you went for instant traps back in the days where you had to place them right beneath a player. When you can do it from up to 40 yds away, I can asure you that it is not obvious at all when you are going for it. Like I said earlier, you are pretty much trapped the very moment the visual appears,so in order to avoid it you will have to pre blink/port/ground etc, and even if you do, most of those abilities has a longer cd than traps, which means that you can't avoid the next one.

I know that the game should be balanced around glad rating, but I don't feel like a mechanic which is extremely strong up until that rating is good for the game as it scares new people off from PvP.
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#51 bbbradddd

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 11:43 AM

You are telling me that we could go into Durotar right now and you could Duel a Warrior while spamming orbs under me as I am 40 yards away, trying to avoid them?

What percentage of orbs do you think you'd hit? Would you like to place a genteman's wager?

If it isn't about Mages vs Hunters overall, what is it about? Beta? No, it's theoretically about just having Freezing Trap and Counter Shot vs Counter Spell, Deep Freeze and Polymorph. Even without PoM, it's so obvious that having a spammable Polymorph is better than even an unavoidable, targeted trap on a 12 second cd.

Know why? Because you can't chain it. So there's 4 seconds of time where the enemy can do anything, no matter what. How do you not view that as an inferiority? Oh yeah, because you're a Mage and the whole world should basically be given to you. Nah, but you're right. 12 second CD, unavoidable Freezing Traps would actually let Hunter compete with Mage, assuming all the changes actually make it to live.

Polymorph and Freezing trap would be comparable, under that circumstance. Like Silencing Shot and Counterspell are comparable. Powerful for slightly different reasons, used for similar purposes. Those are the distinctions that are balanced. But what about the rest of them, you know where.. actual design comes into play?

Camouflage vs Invis, FD vs Mirror Images, Aimed Shot vs FF Bolt, Arcane Shot vs Ice Lance, Roar of Sac vs Pet Nova, Frost Nova/CoC vs Conc Shot, Blink vs Disengage, Ice Block vs Deterrence, Spellsteal vs Tranq Shot, Evocation and Spirit Bond?, Mage Armor and.. Aspect of the Iron Hawk? and, finally, Chimera Shot vs Frostbolt.

Which of those comparisons did the Hunter win?

That's what I thought.


Holy fucking shit I laughed so hard
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#52 doublejump

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 12:24 PM

Reedwise, you make it sound like nobody will ever stop a mage from polying your healer, is that really your opinion?
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GUYS GUYS GUYS IM RUNNING IN I GOT A FEAR OFF THAT!!! Oh wait Tremor... OK OK OK Guys I got another full fear off that!!! Aw shit nimble, OK GUYS GUYS GUYS I SWEAR I HAVE A FULL FEAR! Fuck nevermind... Will. OK OK OK NOW THIS FEAR IS FULL!!! Shit he has tremor back up omg... OK OK OK NOW I HAVE A FULL FEAR ITS FULL KILL KILL Oh whoops... prep tremor... Damnit, I got a full fear this time!!! Oh... he trinketed it... next one should be full... FULL FEAR!!! He has nimble back up WTF.


#53 mirox

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 12:24 PM

Cant wait for the release of WOD,when blizzard suddenly changes their mind about removing scatter, and just say something along the lines: 'we had a lot of user feedback wanting us to bring back this iconic hunter ability to the game'.
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#54 Esiwdeer

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 03:46 PM

Reedwise, you make it sound like nobody will ever stop a mage from polying your healer, is that really your opinion?

No, that isn't my opinion. I know you guys think I'm just some biased hunter hero that has no idea what the fuck is going on, but we have to understand the differences in the way the game has affected our experience.

Take Capstone for example. Probably one of my favorite posters on this website. Super informative, extremely competent. As I've said, I've played Mage to Gladiator I don't know, 4 times and I truly am a reasonably well played Mage. I am a much better Hunter, though.

When I read his posts about arena strategy and his insight into how you should be thinking about the game, I realize how vastly different our experiences have been. While the entirety of my arena history has been built on efficient damage and an extremely aggressive playstyle, his is entirely controlled and opportunistic. It's just very interesting to me how different players develop different instincts and styles over time, and I think that has a lot to do with your class and what it is capable of.

Take partners, for example. If I wanted to be a relevant Hunter since S1 I would have gone through every single class by now. Literally all of them sans Mage(ironically) have been a top tier teammate at one point. Don't you think that's strange? Think about how much Hunter has changed over the course of the game. Isn't it very peculiar that they can compete at all, given the design disparity?

Honestly, I don't feel Hunter has a place in the game. It doesn't make sense and I think the game would be better if Hunter, its comps and their effect on the ladder were just gone for good. But that's not ever going to happen, I think.

It isn't about people stopping the sheeps on your healers. That's a very basic way to view potential/skill ceiling and assumes and overly simplifies the strategy of "CC"

Mage can effectively kill someone instantly after casting for about 1.3 seconds. Think about what happens if you get Polymorphed. You're.. essentially dead, for 8 seconds OR you can lose a major cooldown, your trinket or the same from one of your allies.

I'm sorry, you can do that whenever you want. Fuck, you could turn on Frost Armor and literally spam it. Go Troll as well. It isn't just about sheeping healers, you know. You can sheep anyone.

In the current meta, it's simply usually more valuable to use my Silencing Shot to stop your healer then to use it on you to stop your Polymorph unless your team is ahead. Is that what you're complaining about? It's always worth it to Pummel/Kick Polymorph, but it is a decision to use a big interrupt on it. A big one.

And you have that pressure against the enemy team all the time. I know it's easy when you play a Mage to forget the free pressure you apply through spells like Polymorph. It is the best spell you have, hands down. Even if you don't cast it, it still applies so much pressure. You know what? The next time your healer gets trapped, tell your assumed Rogue teammate to get off the Hunter and simply PoM sheep him. You'll either take his pressure, or his trinket. Hope this helped.

Even if trap has a 100 yard range and a 12 second cooldown and is completely unavoidable in WoD, Mages will still be able to compete. They have no idea what is going on with Hunter. Removing Scatter Shot? I have literally had that ability since, I think, level 45 in 2005. I don't get why Mages think they have it so bad, anyway.

#hunters all you want, Mage has never had a bad season.

Edited by Esiwdeer, 18 July 2014 - 03:50 PM.

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#55 leek

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 07:14 PM

#hunters all you want, Mage has never had a bad season.


problem is that i know atleast i got so many bad memories of hunters as a mage from s1-s15, ranging from bestial wrath 13 sec cc immunity in tbc to all of wotlk where you basically just flopped if you stayed in a hunters los for more than two seconds, cata ros-spam and then all the instagib comps ft. hunts in mop, hence i'll always dislike them as a mage, i don't think theyre imba, just annoying to face
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#56 Pouncedd

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 07:44 PM

problem is that i know atleast i got so many bad memories of hunters as a mage from s1-s15, ranging from bestial wrath 13 sec cc immunity in tbc to all of wotlk where you basically just flopped if you stayed in a hunters los for more than two seconds, cata ros-spam and then all the instagib comps ft. hunts in mop, hence i'll always dislike them as a mage, i don't think theyre imba, just annoying to face


Back in the day though dispel worked differently which changed the threat of non CD Ccs like Fear and Poly but since dispel has been changed and the state of fear and poly haven't it has become extremely overpowered. Polymorph or fear can be used more freely on DPS without the thought of stopping dispel because you literally can get the dispel on the full poly or fear as a healer but then your teammate just goes into a 4 sec fear or poly and you can't do anything about it and then off of that CC they get ccd even more and it has caused a horrible chain of unstoppable CC. And on top of this warlock and mage over each expansion have had to cast less and less and it's to the point where they only have to cast their CC spells now it seems.

Lastnight I was facing an alliance godcomp as jungle cleave and literally the mage novas me first global and procs his trinket + tailoring then throws frozen orb out and uses on use and does the entirety of my health pool inside of a pom poly by himself. As he novad me I slept druid and scattered priest with a half trap on druid but JK this mage is bombing me with 88k Ice lances back to back with frozen orb chopping me up. I used Roar of Sac at about 50% but it was to late by then the priest trinkets with a second left on my scatter casts mind blast and SWD and I die.

Currently Mages have the most disgusting kit in the game. They have the most extreme damage in the game currently along with the most extreme amount of CC and people think it's balanced.

I hear great things about warlords and how casters actually have to cast again which is a great concept. Will most likely be waiting to play seriously again until warlords comes out because of how outrageously broken the game is right now.
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#57 Pouncedd

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 07:49 PM

i do understand the difference, it's the difference between not being able to cc the healer even if my spell doesn't have a cd and being able to cc healer every time on my 12 sec cd spell, that's exactly the difference.
Ok as mage you throw sheeps on players to peel while as hunter you monstly cc the healer, always been like that.


The thing is players don't have kicks with no cooldowns either. You bait or get kicked then 3-7 seconds later you have all the uptime in the world to rotate polymorph on anyone if your heart desires. Hunter cannot sit there and rotate trap on all 3 enemies of a 3v3 team. All you need is one stop to fuck a hunters trap up and then you are golden for 30 seconds.
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#58 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 08:17 PM

the mage novas me first global and procs his trinket + tailoring then throws frozen orb out and uses on use and does the entirety of my health pool inside of a pom poly by himself. ...... I used Roar of Sac at about 50% but it was to late by then the priest trinkets with a second left on my scatter casts mind blast and SWD and I die.

if i die to a hunter who has every single damage buff and trinket proc up because i dont try to iceblock until im on 10% hp and get killed mid gcd, i don't come on here to cry about hunters having stupid damage, because i know full well its me fucking up :)

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 18 July 2014 - 08:18 PM.

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No because the difference is when I play a comp i play it close to skill cap

if anyone needs to be banned, it's you. You do nothing but sit on AJ being a passive aggressive idiot that nobody likes, sorry you stink of washing up liquid.

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)


#59 Esiwdeer

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 08:39 PM

if i die to a hunter who has every single damage buff and trinket proc up because i dont try to iceblock until im on 10% hp and get killed mid gcd, i don't come on here to cry about hunters having stupid damage, because i know full well its me fucking up :)

Ever died in Ice Block?
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#60 Elorxo

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  • Talents: Discipline 1/0/1/2/1/0/1
  • 3v3: 2695
  • LocationUnited Kingdom

Posted 18 July 2014 - 08:55 PM

Lastnight I was facing an alliance godcomp as jungle cleave and literally the mage novas me first global and procs his trinket + tailoring then throws frozen orb out and uses on use and does the entirety of my health pool inside of a pom poly by himself. As he novad me I slept druid and scattered priest with a half trap on druid but JK this mage is bombing me with 88k Ice lances back to back with frozen orb chopping me up. I used Roar of Sac at about 50% but it was to late by then the priest trinkets with a second left on my scatter casts mind blast and SWD and I die.


think this is the problem you are having here mate
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Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: wod, warlords, draenor, hunter, freezing trap

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