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#81 Blexone

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 01:46 PM

View PostCapers, on 09 June 2014 - 05:37 AM, said:

The difference is that you can just stand on your healer and stop the hunter's CC. That's how you "interupt" it.

yeah cause you cant do anything as a healer to avoid a casted cc, right?

#82 Pouncedd

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 01:31 AM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 09 June 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

Why do all your examples complaining about Mage cc relate to Mage / x (with more cc) / x (with more cc), while all your comparison arguments with hunters feature a 1 vs 3 situation where as soon as your scatter trap is wasted/prevented you have no more cc for the next 30 seconds?

Also if casted cc with no cooldown is the biggest evil in this game, why has Mage Lock Druid not been a top tier comp since season 8? :)

Because hunter's mainly play with Melee because cleaves are pretty much the only thing viable other than HLS which I do not play.

I gave the example of Mage/ Caster with CC / Healer with CC because if you compared it to any hunter comp the caster team has much higher potential CC capabilities than any cleave on top of doing enormous burst damage. A cleaves time spent in CC compared to a Caster team that is facing a cleave will almost always be double and sometimes triple.
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#83 shackalackin

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 03:17 AM

The problem being that hunter/x (usually warrior) is doing strong consistent damage (along with potential for crazy burst) during these "smaller" cc windows. And saying if you get stunned on scatter you're not going to get a trap is stupid. There's so much random, instant crap to trap off this expansion it's hardly an inconvenience at all. Half the time I see them trapping off stormbolt because they're so "smart" they realize scatter can be a dead giveaway that a trap will follow up.

#84 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 06:36 AM

View PostPouncedd, on 10 June 2014 - 01:31 AM, said:

Because hunter's mainly play with Melee because cleaves are pretty much the only thing viable other than HLS which I do not play.

I gave the example of Mage/ Caster with CC / Healer with CC because if you compared it to any hunter comp the caster team has much higher potential CC capabilities than any cleave on top of doing enormous burst damage. A cleaves time spent in CC compared to a Caster team that is facing a cleave will almost always be double and sometimes triple.
so the hunter comp which has the same/more cc then a traditional mage wizard cleave, you choose not to play, and then a standard hunter comp vs a standard mage comp (sp druid) the hunter team will spend more time in cc overall then the mage team. are you complaining that you automatically lose 100% of the time to any mage sp druid team that actually uses cc, or are you complaining that you normally win, but the cc from the mage team makes the game last longer then you think it should?

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 10 June 2014 - 08:46 AM.

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#85 swidgin

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 04:47 PM

OK ok....Why all the anger?

My intent was to ask if making Deep Freeze a SLOW (75-90%) instead of a  instant CC Stun lock (4-5sec) was a good idea.

I did NOT mean to start a I hate hunters thread.

Question Unanswered in the ANGER FEST....

Do Frost Mage Pets (Elemental) still have Freeze in WOF Alpha?   Can I get some help on this one?

#86 Randemuser

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 12:36 AM

Not replying to the actual topic (but i think that mage cc is just as retarded as hunter cc, hunter cc is easier to get off but mage can spam it on different people) but man Dizzeeyo and Lolflay come across as major douchebags, do you really have to constantly bellittle and insult the people you are arguing with?

Im not saying titles mean that much, and i dont know how accurate the title function on aj is or how accurate the chars in peoples profiles are but maybe people who have not played at a high level since woltk and are now constantly beeing idiots on these forums and insult people who do play should just stop beeing bittervets and stop posting in general untill they come back and actually play the game.

Sorry but i just had to say that.

#87 Pouncedd

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 10 June 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

so the hunter comp which has the same/more cc then a traditional mage wizard cleave, you choose not to play, and then a standard hunter comp vs a standard mage comp (sp druid) the hunter team will spend more time in cc overall then the mage team. are you complaining that you automatically lose 100% of the time to any mage sp druid team that actually uses cc, or are you complaining that you normally win, but the cc from the mage team makes the game last longer then you think it should?

The control to a certain degree is called for from any wizard comp but currently it is just way to much and needs to be toned down while other areas need to be looked at. Right now if a cleave doesn't kill in the small window of opportunity they have with their 2 min / 3 min cds up then they will pretty much always lose to any decent godcomp / caster comp. Caster comps such as god comp have so much utility that they can just use ironbark for example when no damage is coming out at all and not be behind one bit because all they really need is one or 2 solid defensive cooldowns to counter a cleaves burst then all they have is consistent damage. A cleave could make the long game and use that consistent damage to their advantage making the enemy caster teams healer go OOM but it gets to that point maybe 10% of the time BECAUSE of all the control the wizard cleaves have right now.

You pop all your major cds as a cleave and the wizard team peels with their CC and uses a defensive or 2 then the damage will never come in that fast for another 3 minutes while a caster team can set up the same CC chain a cleave can just as well and if not majority of the time better than the cleave can. On top of that their burst is more potent and in god comps cast is up every 30-45 seconds (deep / DP ) Wizard teams currently have both extremes Of CC and burst they are the best hands down at both and that is what wins games currently is burst during CC.

I would much rather have a 1.5 second casting "freezing" Arrow that I can cast on someone and CC them for 8 seconds and have wyvern taken away. My "Burst" damage could be toned down if they could even do that and I would be happy with that constant pressure play style but for that to work they need to either tone down the burst wizard comps have right now or trim some of their CC durations or modify the cool downs.  

The game is pretty fucked from every direction right now and it is because of CC duration potential from majority of comps / Burst / Instant CCs.  

Hunters have Instant CC but they don't have the CC duration potential of a mage or any caster and they also have no where near the burst potential casters do. YES I can CC a healer or player for an extended duration but what I cannot do is sit there and rotate my CC onto all 3 enemy players if I chose to do so just to stop all momentum the other team has.

People like to blame how bad the state of the game is on hunters for the sole reason of the amount of instant CC they have but in reality wizards such as mages are the bigger problem currently just because how they work mechanically.

I really don't see why I try and explain this concept to anyone because first off, they are changing 85% of this in warlords and secondly, 85% of the people who disagree with me I won't even see in warlords because they will feel like their class got nerfed to hard and they can no longer obtain their 2400 ratings and become rats, but in reality it is because the game is more balanced and they can't actually look at the game mechanically.

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class as far as potential CC, Burst damage, Defensive cooldowns, offensive cool downs and it is actually mind boggling how blizzard could allows this game imbalance to exist. It could be partially due to how WoW was never meant to be a competitive E-sport but honestly majority of this could easily be fixed without hurting PVE if they have a dedicated and passionate Pvp developer team. Holinka looks like he has done a great job so far for warlords but majority of the issues could have been fixed just a few months after he was hired.


TL;DR - Majority of you are narrow minded.
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#88 Booked

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 01:13 PM

I'm honestly happy with whatever changes they make, been playing mage for so long and I think any change is going to be way more refreshing than playing a new expansion with basically all the same shit.
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#89 swidgin

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 01:49 PM

I still don't understand the MULTISTRIKE for frost.  Why give a burst class a mastery that allows you to hit other targets?  Not QQin,  I'm sure there is a good reason I just cant for the life of me think of it.  It has ZERO PVP help for the PVP mage spec....

Anyone shed light on this for me?

If I'm reading this wrong and multistrike hits the same target....Well then I'm an idiot that cant read....

#90 Ezepls

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 04:06 PM

From what ive read about multistrike, it functions in the same way as the elemental shaman mastery/ dragonwrath used to. I dont think its a cleave, because they removed the stat for that pre alpha.

Pretty much its  a spell that procs from the damaging abilities you use, so you cast a frostbolt and there will be an x% chance for it to proc an automatic insta frostbolt from that cast.



#91 Booked

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 04:43 PM

If it does give a chance to proc the same spell again, I hope they make frostbolt hit like it did in wotlk, muwahhaha
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#92 Ezepls

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 05:05 PM

I would love to see early frost come back. I didnt realise how much i abused it until it was gone!

#93 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 12 June 2014 - 05:41 PM

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class
i found this bit really amusing for some reason, sorry :)

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 12 June 2014 - 05:41 PM.

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#94 Pouncedd

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 05:42 PM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 12 June 2014 - 05:41 PM, said:

i found this bit really amusing for some reason, sorry :)

Just trying to get the overall picture laid out clearly in front of me instead of just comparing situations in my head. No shame in being thorough :)
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#95 zenton

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 08:07 PM

Worst thing is that you actually believe what you write. You should try out playing some other classes. No offense tho..

But lets go back on topic please.. I'm still askin' (looking at Dizzeeyo or any other alpha player) if Frost bomb is really that bad in alpha? Also (if yes) are Ice Nova and the other talent (Ice Comet?) viable options?

It is also not yet clear to me if Evanesce will work technically as a 5.0 Fade or as Deterrence? Also does it dispel any debuffs?

#96 Dizzeeyo

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 09:11 PM

View Postzenton, on 13 June 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

It is also not yet clear to me if Evanesce will work technically as a 5.0 Fade or as Deterrence? Also does it dispel any debuffs?
its a 3 second deterrance with a 45 second cooldown, reset by coldsnap if you take coldsnap, and replaces iceblock. functions identically to deterrance in terms of what spells it allows you to avoid

will most likely be taken vs wizard cleaves, with blazing speed taken vs melee cleaves, since we have zero passive defence vs physical damage now :(

in terms of lvl 100 talents for frost, thermal void and prismatic crystal will both be useless for pvp, so we will take comet storm, which is basically a press every 30 seconds to deal weak aoe damage around a target button, not that exciting :(

Edited by Dizzeeyo, 13 June 2014 - 09:35 PM.

View PostPouncedd, on 12 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Feel free to call me an idiot because I'm a hunter or some stupid ass remark but I've actually written all this down on paper and have looked at the numbers comparatively for almost every class

View PostJontex, on 23 June 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

I actually made an appearance at DH2014 and I met up with people from twitch who were involved with the dota 2 / cs tournies that where there, I talked about the game from my perspective as a professional player and we actually shared a lot of opinions. All I'm saying is a lot of people will be VERY surprised about the future of this game in the esport world :)

#97 Pouncedd

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 04:26 AM

View Postzenton, on 13 June 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

Worst thing is that you actually believe what you write. You should try out playing some other classes. No offense tho..

But lets go back on topic please.. I'm still askin' (looking at Dizzeeyo or any other alpha player) if Frost bomb is really that bad in alpha? Also (if yes) are Ice Nova and the other talent (Ice Comet?) viable options?

It is also not yet clear to me if Evanesce will work technically as a 5.0 Fade or as Deterrence? Also does it dispel any debuffs?

I believe what I write because there is factual data behind it, I don't see the problem in this?
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#98 swidgin

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Posted 15 June 2014 - 02:19 PM

View PostPouncedd, on 14 June 2014 - 04:26 AM, said:

I believe what I write because there is factual data behind it, I don't see the problem in this?


You sir are a hunter....A very good hunter....but still a hunter.  It's like being very good in the special class.   You are very good, BUT it is the special class.

So Mages can't cast while in Evanesce?

#99 zenton

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 12:41 PM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 13 June 2014 - 09:11 PM, said:

its a 3 second deterrance with a 45 second cooldown, reset by coldsnap if you take coldsnap, and replaces iceblock. functions identically to deterrance in terms of what spells it allows you to avoid

will most likely be taken vs wizard cleaves, with blazing speed taken vs melee cleaves, since we have zero passive defence vs physical damage now :(

in terms of lvl 100 talents for frost, thermal void and prismatic crystal will both be useless for pvp, so we will take comet storm, which is basically a press every 30 seconds to deal weak aoe damage around a target button, not that exciting :(

I see, thanks for response. Also, Frostbomb/Ice Nova/3rd talent - how do they look atm?

@Pounced: I was first writing about scientific thinking and some philosophical shit, but I take if from another way - have an open mind fella. Most of us have factual data behind us.

#100 Icyfresh420

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 03:31 PM

View PostDizzeeyo, on 13 June 2014 - 09:11 PM, said:

in terms of lvl 100 talents for frost, thermal void and prismatic crystal will both be useless for pvp, so we will take comet storm, which is basically a press every 30 seconds to deal weak aoe damage around a target button, not that exciting :(
I haven't gotten to play the alpha but how does ice nova 100% damage increase work? Is it just like increasing the damage of ice nova itself or the damage the target takes in ice nova, and is comet storm damage actually weak? I was thinking Ice nova>frozen orb>df>comet storm might actually be insane burst, am I wrong on this?
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